Why IT Matters in Puerto Rice Partnerships

Speaker 1 00:00:06 Hey everybody. Welcome to why it matters. Tracy and I are right now in Puerto Rico and it is amazing. Outside is so beautiful. We're really happy to be here. Um, hi Tracy. Speaker 2 00:00:20 Hey, what, what Tim means by amazing and so beautiful is hot and humid. <laugh> to the point where I can't do anything but drip when I walk outside. Okay. But we're in a cozy, beautiful air conditioned room, looking at the amazing outside. And that's pretty nice. Speaker 1 00:00:38 I am so glad to not be inside on a wet after a wet winter, so great. Speaker 2 00:00:44 Oh, that's right. You actually had this thing. We call snow Speaker 1 00:00:47 Exactly Speaker 2 00:00:47 Right in Montana. Yeah. No, we didn't have snow in California this year. So Speaker 1 00:00:51 In fact it snowed the week before we came here. Yeah. It's like, like late may, still snow. Oh yeah. I Speaker 2 00:00:56 Know. I know. Cuz I packed up all my ski here and then it snowed. I know. Speaker 1 00:01:02 All right. For today, uh, you get to pick the topic. The last two topics that we did were all like my, my thing. And so, um, I'm excited to, I'm excited to hear your topic cause we got into it a little bit in the pre-show so take it away. Speaker 2 00:01:20 Did we had a pre Speaker 1 00:01:21 Shout? Well, you know, I mean we did like, you know, Speaker 2 00:01:23 Pre-show meaning, you know, for the sake of our listeners, 16 different audio tests yeah. On this new piece of equipment that Tim got us Speaker 1 00:01:29 Recording on. That's absolutely too much information. Speaker 2 00:01:32 I think. No way, Speaker 1 00:01:33 No way. The point of a pre-show is so everybody doesn't have to hear about that too late Speaker 2 00:01:36 All, whatever it's here. All right. Um, alright. So I've been now, now on the date that we're recording this, I'm about three weeks into my new job. Uh, and I'm not gonna name it here, not because I'm ashamed of it. Not because they're not awesome people, not because of anything other than like, you know, I I'm trying to keep work for, to be work and, and this to be this. And if I invoke where I work, I have to like immediately then start qualifying it saying this is not an official position and so forth, but it's fine. Like, because we can just call it like the employment that shall not be named and move on from it. Um, or not. I mean, I don't work for Baltimore. So anyhow, I have been thinking deeply lately about what it means to really build partnership. And I'm not talking about like partnership in the relationship sense, although relationships are a part of it, but I'm talking about when any given company decides to either work with another company or work for the benefit of something in this case, the impacts economy, what, what does it mean to truly partner there? Speaker 2 00:02:59 And the thing that I see happening again and again and again, and I I've told people this like directly I'm on several advisory boards and I've told them this directly. And what I've said is you can keep doing exactly what you're doing right now. And it will look absolutely fine working with the impact economy until it won't. And by my estimation, you know, we are three to five years out from that moment where it won't Speaker 1 00:03:39 And wait. So when you say it'll work until it won't like that's insider code and I, and so I wanna just like, yeah, yeah. For a second, like, cuz I, okay. I actually don't know what I mean. I know when it's not working. Right. But like what are some of the, what are some of the sign posts on that? Speaker 2 00:03:59 Okay, good question. So here's the sign posts. So let's assume you're working with any given company X, right? And that company sells software to nonprofits. There is a very easy and formulaic way of going about sales that says we're going to continue to rapidly push sales in front of any given industry vertical in this case, nonprofits as quickly as possible with the goal of attaining as much ACV, which is annual contract value as possible. So that as we bank on those successes, we can then either reinvest that money into our own company or we can pay people or, or do whatever it is that companies do with money, which is actually a lot of things. Right. Speaker 1 00:04:56 Okay. So before you move on then when, so just to be really clear and I've got, I'm fine with this. There can be a lot of different meanings to the word partner. Yes. In this instance, what you're talking about is inner industry partnerships that are sales related. So these are partnerships that result in both parties, mutually closing sales deals Speaker 2 00:05:24 Yeah. Or getting something. Right? So it, it works in a number of directions. A lot of companies that sell software to the impact economy use this word partnership. We partner with nonprofits through our products. We, we make nonprofits stronger through our partnership with, you know, our products and, and all that really is, is a pretty way of saying we sell super hard to nonprofits either in the United States or internationally. Okay, that's fine. That actually works. And it will continue to work. And why I say it will continue to work until it doesn't is because it is blind to the needs of people on the ground, in the actual organizations that are consuming that software. It is also blind to many of the tensions in the nonprofit ecosystem. And it is also blind to the shape of where the impact economy is going to be headed in my estimation in the next 10 years. Speaker 2 00:06:36 And all of those blindness together mean that that super high velocity sort of sales and business partnership mindset that has gotten everybody to where they are right now in 2022 can continue to still work. But it is not only outmoded. It's also increasingly irrelevant. And the trends that are making it irrelevant are trends that those actions themselves don't adequately understand or encompass. So what are trends that are making things irrelevant? One nonprofits themselves are becoming much, much more clever and adept at using technology. Overall two, there is a Stripe of service to nonprofits that says, Hey, before you even keep investing in more and more technology, why don't you figure out you first and nonprofits are three. We can't have gone through the past two years of what has happened in the United States without saying that the nonprofit ecosystem itself in this country is fraught with intra organizational politics and tensions rooted in power and privilege and access. Speaker 2 00:07:57 And when you layer in something brand new and shiny on top of it, all you're doing is pushing hard on that thing until it fractures. And I would say, lastly, the other thing that's shifting in our country is people's expectations of what technology is supposed to do are changing. And I've heard this so many times where people are solving things their own way, or they're picking up old tools and reconfiguring them. And you know, at the end of the day, what this means is that by the time the combination of all of those things catch up to the ecosystem and the industry that serves nonprofits with software, it'll be too late for them to adapt. And one of two things will happen. They'll either start losing sales and they won't know why, or they won't be able to make the pivot to how people want to act with their software. Speaker 2 00:08:56 And therefore, you know, everybody's just gonna get angry and than they already are at the myriad of companies that serve software to nonprofits. So I'm not saying this is a fully baked thought, but what I am saying is that I work in business partnerships and I have already seen this now in two different ecosystems where there are business partners who are reaching for new ways to serve nonprofits and are looking for new tools and ideas. And then there are business partners who are just saying, we do this, this is our one motion. And it works. I don't see a need to change. And I think they're both tapping into the moment in important ways because one's tapping into survival and one is tapping into future. But where my head is going today is that partnership when it's done right to me has always been about discourse and dialogue and each party walking away with something of value to them. And when it's done wrong, it's very one-directional and it's very marketing or sales or, you know, publicity focused or even just plain old profit acquisition focused. Speaker 1 00:10:28 Okay. So super interesting conversation. And here's where I wanna, I wanna layer in a couple of definitions or thoughts that just kind of deal with the edges of this. Speaker 2 00:10:41 So yeah, sure. I mean, like I said, I would say it was fully baked. No, Speaker 1 00:10:44 No, I like it. And you know, and I don't think, I mean, you know, this kind of thing will never be fully baked cause it's always gonna move a little bit, which Speaker 2 00:10:52 Also, because we're in Puerto Rico and I have a massive sunburn every time I lean forward, my Sunbird gets irritated. So if I like scream, that's why. Speaker 1 00:11:00 All right. So, um, the first, the first thing I want to define here is we are not, when, when we say partnership in this conversation, at least we do not mean partnering with a nonprofit and partnering when, when it is like, Hey, our company partners with nonprofits, that's just code for, we sell to nonprofits. Correct. So that's different though than business partnerships. And what I mean by that is okay. Like, um, take, say that, uh, I'm working with neon one through my company and neon one, uh, has, you know, wants to, or, uh, a nonprofit wants to bring on neon one to, to do their CRM, to be their CRM. Mm. And they are looking for a professional services company to help them stand up neon one for that nonprofit, correct. The relationship between neon one and the nonprofit is not a partnership here. No. And the relationship between the implementation partner and the nonprofit, that's not a partnership either. Those are just sales, which is fine. Those Speaker 2 00:12:15 Are just sales. But Speaker 1 00:12:16 Between, between neon one and the implementation partner, that is the business partnership that we're talking about. Right? Speaker 2 00:12:24 Yes. Okay. That is, and, and, and that's a great caveat. And what I will say is one thing that drives me crazy is when people who either do services software to nonprofits call selling their service or profit or service or software to nonprofits when they call it a partnership. Yeah. Because Speaker 1 00:12:43 It's not it. Well, I mean, Speaker 2 00:12:45 I mean, Speaker 1 00:12:47 It's not, so we're not gonna get into that in this conversation. We are for sure. Not saying that it is all I'm saying is as somebody that has had to be in that position. Yeah. There are, at times that is the best word to describe that relationship in the moment with that nonprofit. And that's fine. Like there's no rules that you can't use that and mean partnership. No. But what we're talking about is business partnerships between businesses that partner together to help nonprofits use technology. Speaker 2 00:13:16 Right. Okay. Alright. Yeah. So then Speaker 1 00:13:18 That's, that's the first thing. So partner business partnership here is business to business, not business to nonprofit. Second thing here is, um, something that I think you're saying that is also really critical here is when both parties do not mutually benefit it ceases to be a partnership and become something else. I don't wanna say what the other thing is, cuz I don't really know. And that would be complicated. What I am saying is that when, when it, when it no longer serves the best interests of both parties, then it is no longer a partnership is some other business deal. And probably not that healthy of one. So maybe a better way to say it is the more mutual, the, the better quality of partnership it is. Speaker 2 00:14:08 Yes. Speaker 1 00:14:08 Okay. All right. Speaker 2 00:14:09 And, and, and frankly, like it's all conflated in my mind because I've lived through so much of this, but Speaker 1 00:14:16 Well, and it's changed so much. I, I just have to say like, it has changed a lot in the 12 years that I've been doing or yeah. 12 years doing Speaker 2 00:14:25 Technology. Oh, absolutely. And I mean, yes it's so it has changed in, in the, you know, 20, some odd years I've been doing this, but like the core of it looks like this Speaker 1 00:14:37 I've been doing it for 30 years. Speaker 2 00:14:39 Have you, since you were 18, Speaker 1 00:14:41 I mean, I said 12 that you went 20. I just feel like I gotta keep it going. I've been Speaker 2 00:14:44 Doing it for Speaker 1 00:14:44 40. I've been doing it for 400 years. Well, Speaker 2 00:14:47 I mean, you're immortal and drink the blood of like what farm animals to stay Speaker 1 00:14:52 Awake. Smart. I don't even that, are you? No. Alright. So anyway, you've been doing it for 20 years. Speaker 2 00:14:57 Yeah. So I mean, why, I'm, why this is preeminent on my mind is because in my new role, I have to think again about what is the foundation of an ecosystem of partners that are designed to serve the impact economy around a specific set of tools or a specific set of actions. And I have come to the conclusion already that, you know, there's this easy partnership model. And that is like, I give you referrals. You give me kickback or I give you sales, you give me recognition. And, and we just move forward with that. And maybe that's always gonna be a component to the work, but Speaker 1 00:15:42 I mean, there's nothing bad about, I mean, kickbacks itself kind of tastes a bad thing, but it's not, Speaker 2 00:15:48 Well, no, it's not. It's, there's nothing bad about it, but it, it it's irksome to me when folks aren't transparent about it or they try to make it sound like more than it is. I'm like, look, it's really simple, Speaker 1 00:16:00 But that's Speaker 2 00:16:00 My 10 compliance to you. You give me 10% of that work. Don't make it sound like, Speaker 1 00:16:04 So you're magic Speaker 2 00:16:05 On my behalf. Speaker 1 00:16:05 You're gonna hate me for saying this. But part of the reason I'm saying the more mutually beneficial, the higher quality partner is partnership is because yes, there are some arrangements in which the most valuable thing is simply the revenue share model that happens between two businesses. Sure. And, and that I think is a legitimate model. Now the quality of partnership again, is the partnership between two businesses that both are co-selling to a nonprofit. Yes. I don't think like, and here's what I wanna say, just because it's a great partnership between those two businesses does not translate into the, that business partnership between them are mutually a great partnership to that nonprofit. And that's why I wanna leave the partnership out of it. Cause I think there's some partnerships where I don't think what they take to nonprofits is the best deal for the nonprofits. Oh Speaker 2 00:17:01 No. Speaker 1 00:17:02 Well, this is why, and it's still a really high quality partnership. Speaker 2 00:17:05 Right. But this is what I call malformed. Monodirectional highly codependent and frequently incestuous business partner ecosystems, which in my new role Speaker 1 00:17:14 On how often do you actually call it that pretty often like it's time to a, actionize that whole thing. It's like 15 words. Speaker 2 00:17:22 I know, but it's like Kylie poly at 3:00 AM. It Speaker 1 00:17:25 Works very well. I think 400 syllables in that one description right there. Well Speaker 2 00:17:29 Sure. But my point being on that is that yes, it works great for those two entities, but it is not a partnership of service to a nonprofit. And why that's important to me is because, you know, that is the model where it's like, all we're gonna do is we're gonna achieve this one goal together and damn the consequences. Right. Speaker 1 00:17:50 So, and the consequences long term, uh, like as an economist. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:17:54 Like the consequences Speaker 1 00:17:55 Long term talking about the long, the consequences long term end up being bad reviews for service provider. Yes. And they end up being attrition for, for product Speaker 2 00:18:06 A product. Right. That's right. That's always what happens. Speaker 1 00:18:10 Right. And so this is, this is when I first started, I would've said, okay, well, you know, the market will adjust for that by putting those two companies out of business because of attrition and bad views. And it turns out 12 years later, I would say, you know, like, like Kane said, we live and die in the short run. Right. Like, yes, actually it is a long term play that that happens. And so if your marketing is really good. Yes. Actually you can sustain that. Yes. For a long time. Yes. By onboarding new, like new nonprofits into that model for a long time. All depressingly long time Speaker 2 00:18:46 Depressingly Speaker 1 00:18:47 I will also say I do not think that there are a lot of bad actors like that in the ecosystem. Speaker 2 00:18:51 I don't think there are a lot of bad actors. I think there are a lot of unintentionally bad actors. Speaker 1 00:18:55 Okay. That, that, yeah. Unintended consequences is Speaker 2 00:18:57 Definitely a fact. I think, you know, I think there's a lot of archaic thinking around these ecosystems and why this is even top of mind it's because part of my new job is to figure out, okay, what does the partnership ecosystem look like for where I'm working now? And I've realized that there are essentially internal and external P pillars that you can rest this thing on. Right. And the way that I've had to describe this motion is that when you, as a business, engage with other businesses as a business partner, you can't just sort of deploy a single person in one contract and hope that it goes, you know, through that whole rigmarole, we just discussed, you have to think about what it is the relationship is founded on. And what, what I'm trying to pick apart in my mind is is there a better way to construct these things so that the long term outcomes for the nonprofit world in the United States and the impact economy at large are greater than the sum of the parts. Speaker 2 00:20:09 Because the sum of the parts right now is always falling six months short of next goal next, you know, quarters, ACV goal. Right? And I don't think that serves anybody because what it's doing is it's deploying tools and products and services at high velocity into an ecosystem that is already overwhelmed, overtaxed fraught with internal politics right now finally confronting some of the fundamental aspects of its own internal sort of power dynamics, racism, phobias, isms, and you layer on top of that, the events of the past two years up to, and including the role of enabling, you know, technology itself in enabling horrible actions in our country. And frankly in the world, you know, that's not a recipe for long term success. That's a recipe for getting to next quarter's ACV goal and moving forward. But my hypothesis going back to the beginning of this is that's gonna work maybe for the next three to five years. And then it's not because what's shifting is the literal ground on which that assumption is made. And that is we keep treating these organizations like any other industry and sooner or later, the industry itself will adjust itself and, and make accommodations for how we work. Right. And I just don't think that's true anymore. I don't think it's ever been true, but I especially don't think it's true. Now Speaker 1 00:21:44 You think that, so the part that isn't true is that the industry will actually start to push back against that. Yeah. You don't think it will. Speaker 2 00:21:53 I don't think it has the capacity as an organized industry to do Speaker 1 00:21:56 So well. I mean, you know, no industry does it as an organiz. Like it's not like organizations form a union against like that. What happens is that eventually better models emerge and everybody's like, oh, we should do that instead. You know? And so you, Speaker 2 00:22:12 But this is an industry that fundamentally lacks the capacity to develop those models. Speaker 1 00:22:16 I think that that's right. And I think it's, I think the piece that's complicated on that is that non non-profits fundamentally are UN or don't know how to be, um, the kind of consumers that know how to push back on that because they aren't taught that in, in almost any other sector that they're working. So yes. You know, like when you do fundraising, Y you know, like everywhere else in the world, like fundraising is the closest equivalency there is to sales. Sure. And everywhere in every other industry, there's a thing called price. So you, you like, you know what I'm saying? Like in, in the nonprofit world, you're like a salesperson where there is no price, it's the weirdest thing ever. And, you know, getting to know Mallory, Ericsson, Tim, San Antonio, and others, all these people so intriguing about like, okay, this is what this model looks like. Speaker 1 00:23:13 And I've existed in this space for years. Never really thought about that. So, so there is a way in which, and I want to be really clear. I don't think this market is malformed at, underneath all of it underneath all of it, the core economics of it boiled down to, in the for-profit economy. You do as little as possible for as much as you can charge. And in a nonprofit economy, you do as much as possible for as little as you have to pay for it. Yeah. That those, and, and that's fine. The economics on that are, are fine. What that does end up with though, is to your point, like, I think it ends up with a accept what you can get form, that's it of form of professional service acquisition, right. That's right. And end up in, you know, nonprofits that are like 50 million and above like totally different there. Speaker 1 00:24:00 Like there's a professionalization there that happens. It's there. Well, okay. Yes. Uh, actually there is, but it, it is very political at some point. Yes, it is. So all, all that to say, um, something that something occurs to me is that a couple of changes happening in the economy right now. Yeah. Or in the, in the ground that we're walking on are related to this. This is by the way, super interesting topic. Thanks for bring, but here here's the thought is, um, and something that I've been kind of wrestling with, like why, you know, in my work, why is it time for the human stack and hasn't been before, and one of the answers, I think I'm curious what you think about this, but I think one of the reasons that it is time is that technology has reached a tipping point on where it is so much easier to create, deploy, distribute, and understand that the, the lift is different than it used to be. Speaker 1 00:25:03 So there's a huge difference on that. So it's, it can be a lot more direct, you know, B to C than it used to be, um, without like middle ground implementation partners and all of that, like there are limits to that, but it is generally easier. So that's one, one thing. The second thing is that communication tools like social media externally to the organization and internally communication tools like slack are increasing the velocity of knowledge share so radically that you are able to distribute ideas and I, and thoughts and themes so much more rapidly than used to be. Now. Here's, what's crazy is that, that is happening at the millennial and younger levels really rapidly. Yes. So like, I, I mean, Yesss and non-profits is so crazy interesting, but I don't think, I don't think people, even my age are listening to that or paying attention to it. And, and there's a lot going on there. So you've got people in nonprofits that are holding positions of power and, you know, like deciding on what's going and not inappropriately. Like they've just earned the rights to be there. And they're in those positions and they're not paying attention in the same way, but that, I think that you are right, because in the next three to four years, I think there's gonna be a shift yeah. In generational dynamics around how dis how information is distilled and, you know, uh, and distributed. So, Speaker 2 00:26:29 And I mean, interesting, even moreover, you know, and I, and I, I agree with all of that and even, you know, to sort of refine it in my own mind, you know, <laugh>, we don't have in, in the impact economy, we don't have the equivalent of something like BP or Exxon Mobil or Coca-Cola, or, or Pepsi, right. Like, you know, when, when every president that I've ever lived under needs a council of economic advisors, what do they do? They call up the CEOs of like BP and Exxon Mobil and Coca-Cola and Pepsi. And they're like, great. Like you all are the big industry. Guys tell me what's going on in the economy. So I please don't screw this up with whatever marginally limited power the president actually has to affect the us economy. Right? Mostly it's for show, occasionally things actually happen. Right. But we don't even have that for nonprofits. Speaker 2 00:27:25 So there's no sort of council like that, that can kind of clue in to these higher levels of software, service and delivery to organizations, these changes. And they are kind of taking place in real time in front of us right now. And in a way also that comes with the expectation of, I want this to work. Like my iPhone works, everything on my iPhone or everything on my, even my Android phone works pretty damn seamlessly with itself. And with, with, with other people that I need to share things with, and that's not the thinking that informs these partnership programs. So you have this huge meta sort of circle of partnership programs that are blind to these changes that don't act responsibly to them that perpetuate that sort of high velocity, next quarters goals kind of work paired with an ecosystem. That's literally rejecting that thought mindset in real time underneath the leadership of organizations that as you've already said, Tim are just sort of getting what they can get out of services and products and implementations, because they don't have the capacity to do more than that. Speaker 2 00:28:54 So where's it gonna break? Right. So, you know, I had this conversation with a business partner the other day, and I was like, by the way, tell me who else are you working with? And they were like, what? Whoa, why? And I was like, cause maybe I wanna pull them into our house. And he was like, yeah, but what are you gonna do with that? And I was like, what do you mean? And he was like, wow, if I tell you who else I'm working with, you're gonna be angry at me. And I was like, why, why am I gonna be angry at you? Like my interest in you as a small business should be what supports you as a small business and your staff. So like, if you're telling me you're working with other partners and platforms, I will tell you, great, let's come up with some ways to work together that are super competitive and interesting, but I'm not gonna be threatened by that. Speaker 2 00:29:41 Now that is not the norm in business partnerships that I've worked in in the past where people are super threatened by that. So, you know, there's all of these nuances and layers that go into this. But at the end of the day, these two phenomenon create this giant wheel that sort of keeps turning and doesn't actually go anywhere. And it drives me crazy. It drives me crazy. So I keep picking at the threads of this like huge thing, thinking if we can just solve for this next low level thing, you know, if we can just maybe pair these two people together, or these two developers together, or these two service implementation people together, they'll have a conversation that then really sparks some curiosity and shows them their shared interest together. And therefore they'll do differently. Like people will know, and people who know me who have worked with me, like there is a steady stream of emails that flood your inboxes titled introductions. Speaker 2 00:30:50 And I don't do that because I wanna be the center of attention. I wanna, I do that because I actually don't care. I'm like, wait, I know this person and I know this person, but I bet they don't know each other. They really should, like, you are actually the focus there. So, you know, I'm pulling at what do we do to incentivize three things, one better sort of, kind of definition of what a business partnership is that serves the impact economy. That's accountable to these changes to, uh, better mechanisms by which the impact economy itself can give feedback directly to the people in product, servicing it in the way that, you know, any given president can call that council of economic advisors and be like, yeah, you, you, you, you and you like you, four CEOs come to the white house. We'll talk about the economy, right. Speaker 2 00:31:48 And three, you know, in light of the past two years, um, in light of the past six years, um, and, and I have talked about this liberally on this podcast where I personally feel like the macro conditions in the United States are deteriorating to the point where we are four decades or less away from being a loose amalgamation of republics, all different, you know, how do we do so in the context of understanding that suddenly, and particularly with Roe V Wade, how do, how are PE, how are we gonna account for this, where my rights and freedoms and ability to move around societies, going to change state by state. Speaker 2 00:32:41 And if that's an existential fear, then I will own it as an existential fear. But I think there have been many folks before me who are much more deeply affected by that existential fear until that wave finally hit me and mine. And it all has everything to do with race and class and poverty and privilege and assumptions made about who people are and what they should and shouldn't have that are by the way, fundamentally out of their control. So it's like, how do we do better? Because we need to, and I don't have the perfect answer here. Speaker 1 00:33:19 So I am gonna say this is probably partly just the straight white guy full of privilege that doesn't really get it. So I'm gonna preface it with that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, um, and I think, you know, listeners and, and yourself, no, like I don't like being the clueless say white guy. I just am. And partly, I just wanna ask for anybody else out there totally tracking on idea one and idea two, but idea three feels to me like it is a, what, what it, it doesn't, it feels like it's a, non-business like, it doesn't just focus on the business. I wanna okay. But it's, Speaker 2 00:34:00 It's everything to do with the Speaker 1 00:34:01 Business. Well, I mean, okay. Yeah. Business is really hard to conduct in a, you know, like in an APO apocalyptic state. So in that case, right? Yes, absolutely. Like if we pray into multiple, you know, republics. Sure. And so I think maybe what you're talking about just is, and, and again, I am trying to my level best here. No, Speaker 2 00:34:23 No, no, Speaker 1 00:34:24 It's good. In general to just hold like variables that go together together and just say like, okay, we can't like, you know, we can't factor in a meteor hitting. Speaker 2 00:34:35 No, we can, but we can, we can, that's the thing we can and we do. Speaker 1 00:34:38 Okay. All so we can factor that in. Maybe, maybe you want to, what I, what I want to say is I think I, I'm more one and two make a lot more sense to me. Three makes a ton of sense. And I think getting to know you and understanding the degree to which this legislation, the political climate and the thing, the way that society is moving affects you personally has been very helpful for me understanding, um, what, what that looks like. So I absolutely hear the existential piece of that. It totally makes sense. As far as it goes with business partnerships, it's a, yeah. As its own thing. Speaker 2 00:35:22 Oh, let me connect those dots. Okay. Can I take it Speaker 1 00:35:25 Okay, Speaker 2 00:35:25 Please do. It's gonna look like this, you know, um, here's what it's gonna look like. I wake up every day and, and I have choices about where I go to spend my time. Okay. I have choices about how much time I spend at work. I have choices about how much time I spend with my family and kids. I have choices about how much time I spend walking my dog, right? Our time, our focus as humans is, is limited. We have 24 hours in a day. We're usually asleep for a third of that. You know, we're usually working for a third of that more at the end of the day, not only has the work and the personal life kind of bled into each other over the past two years. But if I am at work and expected to be a participant in a major transformation inside of my organization through something like implementing technology or whatever, how much time and attention do I have to focus on that when I'm also kind of combing the news to find out whether or not for example, oh, crap. Speaker 2 00:36:42 I think I might be pregnant and I need to get an abortion and I'm in Oklahoma, right. Or, or, you know, oh, crap. Like, looks like, you know, another one of my neighborhood kids got shot by the cops or, oh crap. You know, I gotta worry about what is happening to my community and my family and, and why this is even important is because some of the root causes of burnout even inside of nonprofits are when people's personal lives and the mission, like you just can't distinguish between the two anymore. So people get pushed into working harder and harder and harder for an organization until they can't. So, you know, we're asking communities of people who are deeply affected by the, by the policies and the worlds around them to make hugely impactful decisions for the sustainment of their organization. And at the end of the day, at some point you're just gonna be like, shut up whatever works. I'm just gonna press the button and deal with it. Right. Speaker 1 00:37:51 Well, yeah. And then I, that that's very helpful. I also feel like, uh, because I, I mean, you've heard my whole spiel on change saturation in the degree, which like disruption affects it. So completely on board with that. The other piece that as you were talking hit me is that if you're talking about business partnerships and you're talking about increased fraying around society's edges, like there are increasing ways in which mutually beneficial business partnerships could very rapidly. Like if you're partnering with somebody and their values alignment, or if somebody in their leadership team gets canceled. Right. Yeah. Right. And then suddenly like that that's a major blowback to you as a business partner. Like there's an increased risk around that. That is just now available or, you know, real in the market that I feel like is different even, Speaker 2 00:38:49 Even more so if you dig into something, you know, if you dig into it this way too, it's like, if you're working with somebody and you know, all you're doing is the same old, same old in this, in this context. How does that look when you have every technology company on earth in the United States, like a bunch of freaking mocking Jays saying, we care about minorities. We care about people of color. We care about equity. We care about the L G B T community, right? Like, it just sounds like a bunch of mocking JS because after a while, you know, <laugh>, if I am personally and underrepresented business owner, and suddenly now I've got the additional stress of trying to run a small business, which you and I both know, by the way, if you're trying to run a small business, that can be 27 hours a day. Yeah. Running a small business. Right. Yep. Now I've gotta also think about all of these other externalities that are coming true and real, how much time and attention am I gonna focus on my business versus dealing with that. And what does that mean for the quality of the ability that I'm able to show up for my business in the first place? No matter how much I care for it, Speaker 1 00:40:07 All that makes sense. You know, and then the last, the last log I wanna put on this fire is, um, something that you and I have talked about a little bit, which is that, you know, in a, in a web three world. Yes. You know, I, I think that increasingly relationships begin to matter even more. Absolutely. And I think that that's everything decentralized in a decentralized system who, you know, that, you know, someone is actually really an asset like that becomes like, okay, I know who they are. They're not just anonymous. Speaker 2 00:40:40 No. And that's, that's exactly right. I mean, it's certainly not, it's certainly not Bitcoin. Speaker 1 00:40:48 Well, I'm not saying crypto I'm like, this is blockchain web three. So this is like immutable identity in, in exactly. Speaker 2 00:40:55 And Speaker 1 00:40:55 I think Speaker 2 00:40:56 That's something that's important for people to understand about that whole world in general. And we can go off on a whole nother tangent on that, but like, yeah. I mean, it's certainly not cryptocurrency. That is the outcome of web 3.0, it's what, what that decentralization of technology allows you to free your time up to pursue because certain things become immutable. Speaker 1 00:41:17 Right. And the point there though on, on relationship on business partnerships is my point, at least. Yeah. Is that relationships? I, I would just say this in my view, relationships continue to be the highest form of partnership. Like the more, the better and cleaner, more trusted the relationship is generally the better the partnership is like there maybe exceptions to that, but anonymity is not generally the best conditions for partnering. Right. And so, you know, in a decentralized world where there's anonymity, the, you know, the more that you learn to relate, I think the, the stronger the partnership. Yeah. Um, I think there's probably a lot more to say on that. And we should maybe do, uh, another episode on that or get a report back in, as you continue to grow partnerships in the ecosystem. I will say like, from my, from my, um, partnerships are absolutely critical for success of technology in the nonprofit space, in the impact economy space. Like there's a degree to which technology is highly dependent on these partnerships. And I think a lot of that is just invisible. You know, I know of it because I'm in industry on it. And I think that's probably the case for you as well. I think that there's a lot that is just invisible in that in, and probably just looks very static, but it's a, it is an extremely dynamic space around partnering and partnering is really critical and, and important. Um, so, well, Speaker 2 00:42:48 I would also, you know, I would also encourage folks who are business owners and application developers and, you know, platform, folks, whatever, like chime in on this because, you know, one of the biggest obstacles to partnership between businesses is, you know, well, I don't want to talk with that person. They're, they're my competitor. They're my absolute competitor in all circumstances. And, and I think the time of that absolutism is ending, um, it really is. And it's all of these things we've been talking about that are ending it because, you know, it has everything to do with the changes that are taking on taking place on the ground in nonprofits to, you know, the expectations that workers have. And I, I, I personally can't divest some of these macro things from the micro shifts because, you know, it's like that, you know, you look inside like a wind up clock or, or, or, or wind up wristwatch, right. Speaker 2 00:43:51 It's really easy to see the gears that are moving really fast. You can see the second gear really quickly. You can even see the minute gear really quickly, what you don't see unless you really sit there and watch it is like the hour gear, you know, behind all of that motion. And, and that's actually the master gear in a lot of ways, right? Because it moves super slow, but it drives the rapidity of the other things. And I, I guess where I'm going with this is ask yourselves truly is my competitor, truly my competitor. Um, and, and if, if so, are they my competitor because I haven't defined well enough the parameters under which what I'm offering operates in order to be certain of what it is I am offering, or have I not defined my own work well, enough to be certain of where I want to position myself or they your competitors because of, you know, like, well, I had a fight with that guy six years ago and we haven't spoken since, okay, that's real. Speaker 2 00:44:59 That really does happen. Um, or are they your competitors because your thing does exactly the same thing their thing does. And maybe you're just two different flavors of soda water. And the thing that I would offer in exchange to that is soda, water cells, man, you know what, like I used to just like Coke, and now I'm just like, is it fizzy? And is it carbonated? You know, and I guess my point there being, you know, if you're in that third bucket, you know, I think I was just having this conversation with a dear friend today. It's switching the mindset from territoriality to abundance and realizing that the way to ensure you're gonna keep selling your stuff is to help grow the very ecosystem of consumers that are actually going to buy your stuff and then play well with others so that everybody is clear about what you're actually offering and can make informed decisions. And I just don't see that happening at scale right now. I just don't. I mean, maybe you do Tim. I don't like you have a lot of conversations with folks Speaker 1 00:46:13 Too. Yeah. What I would say is that it depends, like, I think so. Um, so I was just on, I was just on this panel, um, last week of the week before with a, a new kind of group that is the center, um, is like a Canadian group and I'm totally forgetting the name right now was the center for nonprofit, digital transformation, uh, digital resilience, um, with, with Katie Gibson and Amy sample was part of it. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And, um, and so, yeah, I hopped onto a call. There were about, you know, 30 to 50 people on this call. A lot of them were nonprofits. Some of them were, um, professional service companies like mine. So technically competitors and, you know, for, for over an hour, we sat around and broke into teams and strategized around, like, how do we create more resiliency for nonprofits in, in this space? Okay. Yep. Um, I, I have been participating in those kinds of endeavors, you know, with Salesforce, with Microsoft common data model, you know, um, over and over and over, you know, for, you know, for over a decade. And I, and so, um, what I, what I can can say is that I think the larger the company gets it. It seems to me like when they get to a certain size and especially when they are massive Speaker 2 00:47:43 Platforms, hyper company, global mega course. Speaker 1 00:47:45 Yeah, exactly. Right. When they get to be massive, you know, then, then it's actually problematic to partner through Goodwill. Um, that said, I think that there, there is a huge undercurrent of smaller partners that work together and is really easy to overlook that and, and just see, yeah, the mega corporate, uh, competition as the shape of the market and to not realize actually like it there's more to it than just that. Um, and so I would say like, yeah, I, I, you know, I think that it, it is more complicated than that. What I would say is, I don't think a lot of those corporations work in abundance mindsets. Speaker 2 00:48:27 Yeah. Right. Speaker 1 00:48:28 That's it. And I don't think that, that I, and, and especially, and it is so weird, but at the very top of those organizations, there are all sorts of these little jabs across the lines with their competitors. And I think a lot of that's actually just staged, honestly, I don't know if that's true or not. Oh, no, no of them I'm sure. Totally real. No. Okay, great. So it's totally around. That's Speaker 2 00:48:49 Very, it looks staged because it's so, Speaker 1 00:48:52 Um, petty, petty, Speaker 2 00:48:54 That's the word? Speaker 1 00:48:54 It is. It's just tough. It Speaker 2 00:48:56 Looks staged because it's so petty, but absolutely inside of these things, it's freaking real, Speaker 1 00:49:01 Man. Yeah. The very few times that I have needed to be competitive around my brand and stand up for myself, it has been actually important to be able to do so. Yeah. I think that just as, at some point, like that's all, that's the only play left because you're so large, you actually can't, you can't collaborate anymore, you know, and, and you have to throw your radar. And, and so that's not the world I wanna live in. That's not the world I wanna play in. That's not the way I want to conduct the business that I do. And I don't think that that really serves the impact economy of the world, but, uh, you know, that is part of the world. I would just say don't mistake the bigness of that. And the visibility of that with the reality of all of the actual other work going on, that happens every day. Um, and so I, I, I would just leave it at that and just say, like, Speaker 2 00:49:52 Not, it's not my, I mean, I guess my caveat there would be that bigness is the growth model that everybody drives to. Right. Someday I'm gonna be the next X, whatever that was, you know, back in, you know, someday I'm gonna be the next Coca-Cola someday. I'm gonna be the next Microsoft someday. I'm gonna be the next whatever. So the sheep of the economy and the shape of incentive and, uh, not incentive, but the shape of, uh, adulation in our world is bent towards the idea that someday I'm going to be that Speaker 1 00:50:33 I don't think, I think that's what I think that's, what's different about the impact economy. Part of the reason there isn't a Coca-Cola for, you know, to take your example, part of the reason that there isn't that level of, you know, uh, in, in the impact economy, those sizes is because in this economy, I, I firmly believe that the capital isn't money it's influence. And so what you see is a very different type of economy emerging here. So I actually think that there is space for a different kind of play there. Speaker 2 00:51:06 I do too. I just I'm, I'm trying to solve for what that play is. Speaker 1 00:51:10 That makes sense. Speaker 2 00:51:11 You know, mm-hmm <affirmative> and yeah, that's exactly where I'm at right now is I'm trying to, and, and the words that I've said to folks is I'm trying to acknowledge what got us here and remember yep. That participation and what got us to where we are is super important, but I think there's a different way. And I think the way moving forward is not always the most comfortable ways, because it doesn't always have an immediate connection to revenue. It doesn't always have an immediate clear boundary with, like, I do this, my competitors do that. And it doesn't always have a way that is easily defined by like pure, you know, metrics. Speaker 1 00:52:00 And I think the, I think the final point, my final point. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My final point on that is that that will require someone leading us to a different outcome. And, and I think, yeah, that, that needs to emerge. And it's going to come from people like you, who are saying like, how could we do this differently? And what does it look like? And then taking seriously, how is this economy shaped differently and where are their advantages we can use and how can we downplay disadvantages? And I think that, yeah, I think you're well positioned to ask those questions and, and to start looking at those outcomes in a completely different way. Speaker 2 00:52:41 Yeah. And that's, that's where my mind is at today. Folks is, you know, I come from this world of small business matters a lot, small business matters so much because the way that we prevent our world from being shaped by huge gears, that we can't see turning until it's far too late. And it's far too stoppable, is to make sure that that engine of opportunity and availability gets dispersed as wide as possible. But what I'm trying to do in my mind is unify small business matters with black lives matter and all of the thinking and all of the history that leads to that moment and say, we can do this differently. We have to. And the value sets from each of these are actually less incompatible than we think they are, but it just puts us all in uncomfortable spaces. And all in uncomfortable spaces is exactly where our ecosystem is when it comes to everything related to diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging, any house. So like maybe there's an opportunity here. And that's what I'm looking for. Speaker 3 00:53:56 This is Tracy KZA Speaker 4 00:53:58 And I'm Tim Lockey. Speaker 3 00:53:59 And you've been listening to why it matters an independent production that captures our passions, personalities, and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy. Speaker 4 00:54:10 All of that's important, but even more important. We are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning. Speaker 3 00:54:19 We are so grateful that you've been listening to us. We have no idea why you'd wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you're stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system, or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say, Speaker 4 00:54:35 Whatever the reason, whether it's a bet or you're a believer, would you hit subscribe, or if you've already done that, would you mind leaving us a review? And if you're really brave or wanna put, punish someone, please recommend this podcast to your friends, enemies, and family, Speaker 3 00:54:50 And all kidding aside. Thanks for tuning in. And we are so glad that you're here.