Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of why it matters. I'm Tracy Fonza co-founder of Wyatt matters, and we are still recording here in lovely Puerto Rico. This is our third day of recording with friends and folks down here. Uh, we're all super tired. It is super sunny, warm and humid, and we are consuming a bundle of the available frozen beverages that are being sold to us at unbelievably exorbitant prices by the hotel. But yet we all seem to need so, uh, welcome everyone. Welcome Tim.
Speaker 2 00:00:47 Hey. Yeah, it's been amazing. I I've say I love Puerto Ricos is my third time to Puerto Rico and will not be my last because it is just amazing here. So it's
Speaker 1 00:00:56 Beautiful. Fun. It's so nice.
Speaker 3 00:00:59 It is beautiful. This is the first time I've been to Puerto Rico.
Speaker 2 00:01:02 Oh,
Speaker 3 00:01:02 That's right. It did not disappoint. Yeah. It's really, really beautiful and beautiful. We'll be back for
Speaker 2 00:01:08 Sure. We were joined here today by Amy Cove. We were really excited. Uh, this is Amy's first time to Puerto Rico. Uh, and, um,
Speaker 1 00:01:17 My friend mentor. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:01:19 Co-worker
Speaker 1 00:01:20 Like all sorts of great stuff.
Speaker 2 00:01:22 Um, Amy, somebody that you, like I heard about before I met Amy and so reputation preceded, and then, um, over the last, I don't know, year something have gotten to know, um, Amy a lot more has just been, uh, complete delight and really fun. So
Speaker 1 00:01:39 I was scared of you when I first met you
Speaker 2 00:01:41 Really?
Speaker 3 00:01:42 I the least I really, this it's so out of alignment with my view of myself, I feel like the least scary person. I was like
Speaker 1 00:01:47 Planet super intimidated. I'm like, ah, she's got everything together. She's got the perfect haircut. Like everybody's paying attention
Speaker 3 00:01:53 To her. That must have been the, uh, asymmetrical Bob. It was the, a
Speaker 1 00:01:57 Special blonde Bob face. Yeah, yeah. With like the perfect sunglasses and like the designer purse and everything. And I was like, I am so scared of Amy, but she seems really cool, but I'm scared. So that's amazing. But somehow, like we became friends and I got over that. So there you go.
Speaker 2 00:02:13 Uh, yeah. So to that, to that end, I think it'd be great for you to, uh, kind of talk about what you've done in the ecosystem and your, and your, um, your work history.
Speaker 3 00:02:25 Yeah, I will, um, I'll try to give sort of the reader's digest version of the early stage of career, but I, I am actually proud to admit I just starting my 25th professional career, which seems mind boggling. Oh. Um, but wow. It's been a journey and it's been a really, really, um, interesting journey. That's allowed me to work with incredible people and incredible organizations, um, and in different sectors, um, that exist in our world. I've spent, um, almost 15 years in the federal sector, um, right around the time of nine 11, and was part of helping, um, support organizations that were standing up and trying to figure out how to deal with the new world. So a lot of management consulting stuff worked with, um, two really incredible consultancies at that stage of my career and was really lucky to have mentors that were servant leaders that modeled those behaviors and saw potential in me that I didn't necessarily see or recognize in myself.
Speaker 3 00:03:35 And so I've tried to, as I've developed myself into the other places, that's where I I've spent a lot of my time. Um, I made the decision after helping build two organizations in the federal sector. Um, and about the time that I had my, um, third child that I really needed a break from the federal space, I felt like I had grown as much as I could. All the paths that were in front of me were potentially great, but not really interesting. And so I had the privilege of being introduced to Doug and Kristen sharp, which folks in this ecosystem will absolutely recognize those names
Speaker 1 00:04:14 In a long time. Wow. I think they're in this sailboat
Speaker 3 00:04:17 Around here. I actually think I might be on their sailboat at some point this summer, cuz I live just north of Annapolis. So it's, I, I have actually seen their boat, which is beautiful. Shout out to, to Doug and Kristen
Speaker 1 00:04:30 To two amazing humans.
Speaker 3 00:04:31 Absolutely amazing humans.
Speaker 1 00:04:33 I, I adored both of them when they had, uh, their consulting firm ACF and then, you know, I had a conversation with somebody and they looked at me and they were like, they are literally riding a sailboat into the sunset.
Speaker 3 00:04:47 Yeah, totally. Literally. I was like,
Speaker 1 00:04:49 This is awesome. Like who can do that? Absolutely. Yeah. So great people,
Speaker 3 00:04:54 Great people. Um, and, and I was looking for, so that could take everything I'd learned in the federal sector, but also really challenge me to learn something new. And so what the Salesforce ecosystem provided was both an opportunity to learn a new technology platform. It also provided the opportunity to learn a new, um, market sector in nonprofit and education at the time. And so those things were really interesting to me because I really like, and I'm when I have the time and space, I'm really curious and I like learning new things. And so that was really interesting. So I could bring this skill that I had in helping grow, um, young, adaptable, innovative organizations, sort of that growing past that 50 plus employees point and helping them figure that out. So I think Kristen and I it's possible our first launch lasted for two hours.
Speaker 3 00:05:52 Um, cuz we just kept finding things to talk about. So I was with ACF as the VP of operations for three years, we then went through the acquisition with attain and had the privilege of working with Greg Barone and the incredible team over there and stayed with them for three years and got to that place again where it's like, I'm, I'm ready to do something that's very focused and mission driven and had, um, the privilege of working with REM Hoffman at exponent as he, as his CEO for the last few years. Um, the, the rest of the story there is that we started, I started the week of lockdown and so it's been a really, really interesting journey. But um,
Speaker 2 00:06:27 We started at
Speaker 3 00:06:28 Expon I started expon the week of
Speaker 2 00:06:30 Lockdown. Yeah. In like spring of 2020. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:06:33 Oh
Speaker 2 00:06:33 My gosh.
Speaker 3 00:06:34 Yeah. So it was, it was both one of the most sort of daunting things that I've taken on, but it was also, I think it's so accelerated the trust building process because when you enter an organization in the midst of crisis, you don't have as much space or time to sort of linger. You have to actually think about how do we, how do we support the team and the people through this. And I, I, I could not have asked to be at a better organization through that period of time.
Speaker 2 00:07:09 There's um, there's a lot about you that I find super intriguing and am impressed by. But the thing I think that I'm most impressed with you is that, uh, you have not lost your soul in the process of scaling large organizations in and it's because you care about the people in those organizations. It has been so interesting to get to know you, that you do lead large scale organizational transformations, but the way you do it is by really caring for the people in those organizations. Yeah. Very, very deeply and personally. Yeah. Um, and I think that's maybe I'm wrong, but I think that's rare. Do you have a sense of whether it's rare or not?
Speaker 3 00:08:00 Um, I don't know if I have a sense of whether it's rare. I sort of, honestly, I don't know how to engage differently. It's how I'm wired. Um, the way you work with people and build trust is through understanding what's meaningful and important and impactful for them and what's their story and what have they been through and why are they where they are in their journey. And that allows you to support them for whatever part of their journey they're working with you through. It allows you to support them on that path in hopefully what I aspire to is a way that helps them continue to grow and have the things that are meaningful and important to them be part of their, their career progression.
Speaker 2 00:08:50 I know how to define it now. And I know I'm taking a lot of air time Tracy thinking, but I'm hanging out now all. That's great. So, um, the thing, the thing here is that the other way to do the work that you've done, um, which involves by necessity doing that work will involve an incredible amount of offboarding and onboarding of teams, right? Like that is what happens for sure. There's a lot of transitions and, um, and those, and what I feel like I've seen from others that are leading those is that they have to shut down the part of themselves that cares about people in order to handle the widespread chaos they're creating in other people's lives as these transitions happen. And that's very understandable to me. Like, I don't think these are heartless people they're put in heartless positions where they have to actually like, how do I deal with the fact that I'm, you know, disrupting this many lives and you know, it's hard,
Speaker 3 00:09:46 Whatnot.
Speaker 2 00:09:46 Yeah. What's I think unique about you is that you've gone a completely different route, which is to care more, not less. Yeah. And you've leaned into like, Hey, these are people I want to do my best with them. Even if they're only here for a little bit. And even if I am creating disruption in their lives, I want to do that in an empathetic and compassionate way. Yeah. And I, I do think that's rare. I don't think that is the general approach. Um, I could be wrong.
Speaker 3 00:10:16 I, I have aspired to that. There have absolutely been times. I would say, I think earlier in my career where I failed at that, I learned from those things, the outcome is always better. If you take a human compassion, driven, empathetic approach and understand whatever the change is, what's the impact on the organization, but also what's the impact on the individual. And how do you show up in leadership to support them in the best possible way through whatever that transition is? Um, for myself I've now had, and again, I stayed the privilege because a lot of organizations, once you've made a decision, Hey, I'm ready for something that's next. They're like, sorry, you're cut off. You're done. I've had the privilege of working with leaders, who I was able to really partner with and do managed transitions on the way that I, um, exited to try to leave the organization in a place where I could feel not just good, but that I met my commitment as a leader in that organization to hopefully leave things better than I found them and not have folks be in a place where they're struggling and having a harder time.
Speaker 3 00:11:40 It can't, it's never easy. Transitions are hard. Change is hard, but we have a choice in the way that we decide to show up. We have a choice in the way that we decide to engage with people. And, um, it sounds a little bit selfish, but the, the most important part of that process for me is always, am I able on my last day to, to say with sincerity, I've done everything I can. Conversely, when someone's exiting an organization, if I'm in a leadership position and I'm helping them through that transition, there are different circumstances. There's sometimes where it's the employee's choice. They've made a decision. I think the first thing, when an employee conveys a decision to you is to understand what's driving that and make sure that you're being respectful of the process that they've gone through to arrive at that decision and understand how do we best support whatever that next step for that individual is.
Speaker 3 00:12:32 Sometimes that is retention. Sometimes it is a, Hey, we have another opportunity that could actually align with what your goals and objectives are. Let's talk about that. Let's be curious sometimes it's, that sounds like a really great opportunity. How can we make this transition as smooth as possible for you and for the team, but it takes intention and work, right? It takes being able to have those vulnerable conversations and understand what's driving the especially right now. Oh my gosh. When you think about just the great resignation and all of these things, the burden that's been put on individuals in work environment in on top of what they're working through and dealing with in home environment, um, mental health crises, any, any number of things you have to have a human side to the way that you're thinking about change for folks. Um, I think that piece of it is incumbent upon leaders. You have to do the diligence around making sure you make the right business decision and not saying you don't do all of the things that you need to do in those leadership roles from a, from business perspective, but there's a way to do that. That is, um, compassionate and humble and open hearted.
Speaker 1 00:13:51 I think what's interesting, Amy, I, I was sort of replaying a couple a moments for my own career as you were talking, and I promise you, I will get somewhere with this <laugh>. So I remember when I left one of my very first consulting jobs and the owner of the company who's remained a friend, uh, now owns a huge company that works both in the Salesforce and Microsoft ecosystems, you know, said to me, I wish you'd talked to me first. I understand what you're doing and I understand why you're doing it. And I realized that we never gave you sort of clarity on what your path forward was here. And I was like, yeah, that, that, that kind of felt like that way to me. Um, what I like about the company that, you know, this particular person leads is they have since that era, which was many, many years ago now, and dinosaurs rolled the earth and all of us had offend, you know, tactiles away from our lunch outside.
Speaker 1 00:15:01 Um, you know, they've gone on to be a leader in their own, right around organizational culture and organizational inclusion in a way that is super impressive. Um, but that path forward to folks, particularly folks that are in non-leadership roles inside of businesses, isn't always clear. And when you leverage any massive change on top of that pandemic or, or life change, even just personal life change or, or work changes, mergers and acquisitions, those waters get so muddy that I think the natural result is to panic. Yeah. And to say, I don't have space here anymore, you know, and it takes both that reassurance in my view, but it also takes that intentionality to help navigate those waters. Well, um, we were talking with Michelle Paul on another recording at this same event and also the topic of corporate cult of personality came up. And, you know, I feel like for a long time, the way to lead in tech was to be that highly charismatic, somewhat, you know, crazy doc Emmett brown, or, or like Dr. Who leader. Who's like super inspirational, but doesn't get into the details, but sort of cultivates a following of people who believe in them. And the fallacy of that model is that we're all fallible,
Speaker 3 00:16:41 Right. To a person. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:16:43 To a person we're all fallible. We're not gods. So for years, we've had an industry built on the premise that leaders are gods and the rest of us are me mortals. And if we just do what leaders say, we'll be fine. And I think you're pointing out correctly that for the past two and a half, three years, that that emperor has never had any close, but now it's even that much more apparent to all of us. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:17:14 The way that I think about that from a, a leadership responsibility lens is the last two years has actually required me to do more unlearning than learning,
Speaker 1 00:17:31 Like unlearning how I want to dig into that because I've had to do my own unlearning. Yeah. Also
Speaker 2 00:17:36 Had to do our, that is, is the, that is the, the, the money shot.
Speaker 3 00:17:41 It's hard. It is. So hard's
Speaker 2 00:17:44 True. And I haven't framed it that way,
Speaker 3 00:17:46 But so, so the way I think about it, which is, is human and flawed infallible. Yeah. Asterisk, um, disclaimer is what they call that. I think, um, I grew up in federal management consulting. There was a textbook around how you learn, how you grow, how you lead, what is professionalism? What does this title mean in this context? How do you think about in the federal sector chain of command? Right? There are rules of engagement around chain of command. Um, there is, and this is not a fully formed thought, but there is a sea change happening right now in what
Speaker 3 00:18:37 People expect of their leaders. And it isn't, I'm going to defer and assume you are right. Assume, you know what you're talking about because you have a title. Yeah. I actually need you to demonstrate to me that you care and you're invested and you hear me when I present a problem and I feel it, it does sound trite, but it really is true, seen and valued and heard as part of your organization that there was some of that cuz I work actually really great innovative cultures that were in the early stage of growth. And so there was a lot of that energy and momentum and all of those kinds of things, but there was still that at the end of the day decision maker, chain of command kind of construct and, and organizations need some of that to be healthy. There has to be, yeah, you can't be perfectly flat. Okay. So it's,
Speaker 3 00:19:36 It's all still forming. I'm still unlearning so much and figuring out as a leader, I've always aspired to be a servant leader. I feel I'm in whatever role I am to provide support to the folks within a team to accomplish whatever goal we've set out. I've had the really, really huge privilege of working in organizations that we're supporting, um, missions and organizations that are impacting the world and challenging, um, systems that have been broken for a very, very long time. It's really meaningful work. Um, at the end of the day, my superpower is being able to support the people that actually know how to do the work that allows that impacts to happen. Yeah. And that's, that's what I have to show up in service of. So there's the individual, there's the, what are we working towards as a team, as an organization. And there's been a lot of opportunity for, I don't wanna say failing cuz it's not failing, but things have really shifted and changed in the way way that our clients are trying to, to tackle the missions they're trying to support. And if you just sort of go about business as usual and don't acknowledge the human components of what's happening in the work that we do, um, we're, we're gonna miss the, the, the opportunity to be the leaders we can be at this point in history
Speaker 2 00:21:14 And the insulation has come off the wires in a lot of ways. Right? So a little bit like there is, and I think it's actually great in a lot of ways, there is less patience for shitty leadership. And by that, I mean leaders that care about their companies over people and care about profit over people. Um, and there is, there is like a, huh, that's not where I want to be. I don't wanna be in a company that's like that. And so thank you very much. I'm finding a new one and I know that I can, and I don't care about the resume gap. Like I everybody's got a massive resume gap right now. So who cares? And that is, that is forcing maybe for the first time is forcing leaders who are gifted and smart, but have actually something. And I hit, I don't know what word to use here, but like bad character or have not done enough internal soul work on what makes them tick. And so their response to that are, are kneejerk traditional responses that are completely out of alignment with the moment and making it worse. And
Speaker 3 00:22:28 That's where the unlearning is important. Cuz you build this tool. I think of it as like what's in my toolkit mm-hmm <affirmative> and over years of, if you move up through management and leadership, you have tools in your toolkit that you start to look to use. So when something happens, this is, this is how you respond. And those, the tools that served us 10 years ago are not serving us well now in leadership positions. And so it, that unlearning piece I think is, it's just, it's an important part of what every, every leader should be thinking about right now. What do I need to unlearn? Not what do I need to do more of cuz there's some of that too. But
Speaker 2 00:23:07 So there I was on the phone talking with someone who ended up leaving the organization that they were with, they worked for a nonprofit and they were telling me about how hard they were trying to get their leaders to just understand like the dot matrix printers and like the really ugly walls of the office were it, wasn't just hard for that individual. What they were trying to say is you're gonna lose all of the staff like me, if you don't address this. Yeah. And they fired her instead. And it is like, so that right, that is sending messages to the, the rest of staff about what this looks like. And uh, and, and that's what I mean, like I think that there's a, an internal amount of work that I know I've had to do on myself to just like handle the amount of transition and chaos before the pandemic. Um, and I feel like the pandemic pushed all of us to places where we had to draw on whatever work we had done internally on ourselves in a way that I just don't think, uh, I don't think we, I don't think leaders had been prepared for because leadership for whatever reason didn't require it before. And that's kind of, I, I don't know how I feel about that. Like I feel like it's always been there. I just think there was more insulation before, you know.
Speaker 3 00:24:28 Yeah. It's um, there are also, what I don't wanna say is there's not one leadership style, right? I mean, there are different kinds of leadership that are necessary at different times within organizations and understanding are you the right leader in the right place, in an organization at the right time for where they're going is also a, a big part of it. Cause I, I have made in prior prior organizations, there was a point at which
Speaker 3 00:25:03 I wasn't the right leader for the organization at the time where, for where they wanted to go. And so that introspection is also can I consistently be the leader that I need to be, to maintain my center of integrity in that kind of a setting, whatever that might be. Um, and I think there's still a lot of that. Some of it's, again, disclaimer, total generalization, some of it's generational. Like you stay, you get into an organization, you stay in that company. It's about loyalty. You stay there a really, really long time. You move up the ladder, that's what you do. And anything short of that is, is actually betrayal. And so I've definitely been in organizations in other sectors where you have folks that have been in the same roles for years and years and years and years. And they aren't leading in a way that they feel great about it, but they're, but they don't see an alternative. And it, it takes that like a little bit of jumping sometimes without a parachute to say, I could stay and continue to sort of like do these things, but is that really that where I'm gonna have the biggest impact if I'm gonna be in a leadership role and that's the unlearning, it's the introspection not trying to cause like a, you know, leadership crisis identity. But I think if you're a leader right now and you aren't sort of self-examining after what the last few years has demanded of folks in leadership positions.
Speaker 1 00:26:40 But I think that demand has always been there to, to both your point and Tim's point and, you know, two examples from my world that I think kind of encapsulated in my own way. One was obviously I just started a new job and literally one of the vice presidents whose team I work with or will be working with a lot, you know, they always sort of get somebody from an executive to present at, you know, corporate orientation or new employee orientation or stuff. You know, he basically said, look, y'all, I know there's a lot of people here who may be coming from contexts where you hear every single day in your job, don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions. And he said to everyone, who's worked for those assholes. Let me tell you, please come with problems. I need to know what the problems are and if you're, and if you're coming with problems, it means we as a team need to think yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:46 About what the solutions are, because we're better when we know what we're trying to solve for and not imagining it, you know? And I was like, okay. So I feel like I landed in the right spot. And, and that's the kind of leadership that I feel like is going to carry us as workers or, or managers or, or corporate leaders into this next era. Yeah. Now the demand for that kind of leader has always been there when I worked for big corporate entities before, where for whatever reason, reorganization along the lines of ego and power was the corporate sport. And it would happen on a regular basis, like every six to nine months. You know, I finally got put under somebody along with a team of incredibly talented people and that person was such a shitty manager and so terrible at their job because they absolutely refused to hear what any of us were saying that all of us on that team quit within three months of each other, like literally it was like 1, 2, 3, and we're gone.
Speaker 1 00:28:52 He literally had no team. And to this day like that, that person's name came up recently. And I was like, well, I got no horse in this game. I was like, dumb is a bag of rocks and ignorant as a jackass. And that's my opinion to them. And that's what I'm walking away with as an employee, because their leadership was so poor and so ignorant. And so non self discovering yeah. That it caused three talented people that I worked with and care about to leave entirely. And I think you don't see those undertones of attrition. Yeah. You know, particularly when you're blind yourself.
Speaker 3 00:29:34 Yeah. I have been incredibly fortunate, privileged, whatever you wanna call it to work with incredible leaders. I really, really have, for most of my career, I can think of one really early, early career where I, it was really, really not, but I've worked with people with leaders who have seen and developed the compassionate leadership style that I had. They saw it as valuable and they saw the results that came from it. And again, this does not mean that I've been without failure or challenges or places where I misstep and I messed up and I had to own that and figure it out and do the self-examination and the self-work on that. But I had mentors that recognized something in the way that I engaged that helped me move through that career progression. So I also be part of it is part of our responsibility as leaders is to pay it forward, which sounds right. But to pay it forward to model the behaviors that we expect of our organizations, right. We want, if you want a compassionate, caring, thriving organization, bring that, that lens to the way that you approach leadership and it makes it, it makes all the difference. Um, cuz you're exactly right. If you have someone where you're like, I like, I just can't because I don't know how to work with that person. I don't know how to do these things. I don't know how to you you're gonna lose people in that, in that process. Um,
Speaker 1 00:31:27 Yeah. The amount of knowledge that would've been super beneficial to the organization, I worked for that departed on that team. There was maybe between all three or four of us that were on that team, 60 years of knowledge and understanding of the worlds that we were trying to solve for that was just gone. You know? And, and I think the other thing I will say is there is a Stripe of leader in my opinion, who hears all of this and says that's nothing but bullshit, you know? Sure. And I'm thinking of like the Elon Musk temple. Yeah. Right now something about Elon that was interesting was in the bay area, when COVID was surging, he was like, everybody needs to go back and work at the Tesla plant. And then we're all wondering why are all the Tesla employees dropping like flies of COVID. Right.
Speaker 1 00:32:20 You know, he just did the same thing again. He's like everybody comes into work or you're fired. And I'll assume that if you're not here, you quit. You know? And the article that presented this in the paper this morning actually was like, you better believe everybody at Twitter is scared as hell of this because Twitter just said, you get rid of our office and we wanna support you as remote employees. Yeah. So there's a strike of leader who sees compassion, who sees empathy, who sees accommodation yeah. As weakness. And I don't think that's ever gonna change.
Speaker 3 00:32:59 So throughout my career, I hesitate cuz it's, I'm, I'm gonna probably be a little more vulnerable than the feedback that I got most consistently, um, particularly in the federal space, but not exclusive to the federal space was that I was too nice. Um, and there are times probably when I absolutely have been too nice for the situation, but that compassion, that showing up with active listening and thinking about how, how to get to a shared win as opposed to just, how do I win
Speaker 3 00:33:41 Is so much more powerful. It's not weakness, it's power, it's power in a different way than people are used to working with. But if you have folks around you that know that you are actually genuinely invested in them and their growth, when you hit those bumps in the road and those really, really hard times they are gonna be there working with you through those things. We, you know, I think that it's, I do think it's seen as weakness and I think you're right. I think there are a lot of people who will continue to say no, that's, you know,
Speaker 2 00:34:22 There, and I'll just say it, men are raised to avoid being nice because it is considered weakness. So this is something that I had to address in myself frequently is the view of leadership as a man that if you are compassionate and empathetic, that is less effective and wimpy and um, wimpy. Yeah, no, it is. It's a stupid, it's the word is as stupid as the idea. Yeah. Right. And I, and I wanna say it that way because yeah. What I found over and over again is exactly what you said, which is that you end up relying on force. You do. Right. And so yes, like if your goal is to force people to do what you say, then nice being nice and empathetic is actually probably not that effective. But if what you were trying to do is to inspire and get the best out of people so that they bring who they are, which is what they want to do.
Speaker 2 00:35:32 And you bring them into that space actually is way more powerful. Yeah. And it's not a mystery. Um, but I, I do want to say part of the internal work I had to do as a leader, you know, especially from Montana where you can imagine like, you know, this is the, this is the way it's done. And, and all of that I had to, I had to re understand what power looked like. And, um, and actually that became a lot easier through a faith lens, which is sort of ironic. Interesting. Yeah. Because a lot of the faith that I participate in has got that so backwards somehow. And, and yeah, I think that, that is, I think that is really critical. And then part of, I think, why that's so important is that in that contract where you are like, you know, the main person and, and all of that, what you have to do is be the person all the time.
Speaker 2 00:36:36 And what I found is that, and I think this is really interesting as see, like you played the number two position multiple times. Yeah. That is actually the power position. If the first position isn't forced, then the power position is the second position. And the first position as CEO is to clear the way and create, create a culture in which that is not just allowed, but encouraged. Um, and you have to, what I found is you have to put yourself away a lot. And I feel that, that multiple, multiple times, um, and brought force and screwed it all up and then would have to come back to the table and be like that. But I totally fucked that one up. Okay. What are we gonna do now? And like, and really expose that vulnerability and just be like, ah, what's wrong. I just screwed it up. Um, and I think that leaders are not taught how to do that either. Especially then,
Speaker 1 00:37:31 I mean, metaphorically speaking to him, the queen is the most powerful figure on the chessboard, not the king. That's amazing. And it's an interesting that all of these conversations are on these topics are also being led by women in, in the tech industry. Yeah. That, and I feel like Montana culture is a lot like the Mandalorian where you just do things because this is the way
Speaker 2 00:37:55 It sort of is. So this, so we only have, uh, a few minutes left. Yeah. Amy, what, um, what advice would you like to impart on other CEOs that are experiencing kind of this moment?
Speaker 3 00:38:07 I mean, I think it's, it's stay humble, stay curious, figure out what you need to unlearn. Um, and as I am starting sort of a, a reset in my own life, it's figure out also how to care for yourself. This work is hard, it's exhausting. Um, and we can only do our best if we, and I'm not talking about like the, go get a massage self-care although that's, I, I any, you know, everybody loves good massage, but, um, getting really, really clear. How do you resource yourself? What is your support system when you're navigating the responsibilities of being in a leadership role? I have an incredible coach who has, I've worked with for three years. She's amazing. Um, she's challenged me in ways. I would've never challenged myself otherwise. Um, I have friends that are my go-to when I'm having that moment that I text. I'm like, I just need to get this crazy thought out of my head, know how you resource yourself so that you can be the leader in those spaces and in those organizations that you need to be, um, yeah. Take care of yourself. Cuz if you take care of yourself, you can actually take care of others. Yeah.
Speaker 8 00:39:29 That's a good word. Thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 00:39:31 Thank you so much.
Speaker 7 00:39:34 This is Tracy KZA
Speaker 8 00:39:35 And I'm Tim Lockey
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