How Did You Dingbats Become my People with Billy Bicket

Speaker 1 00:00:07 The title of today's episode is how did you ding bats become my people. Hi Tracy. Hey Speaker 2 00:00:13 Tim. Hey everybody. It's so great to join you for another episode of why it matters. We think you're gonna learn so much from our guest today whose fundamental premise begins with civic association in the United States was built on volunteerism and there are nearly 40,000 non-profit technology organizations and how important the makers in this space are to this technology. We connect a huge arc of history of movement organizing to the world of information technology. And we talk about groundbreaking work, navigating local ad hoc, democratized, and unseen work of technology makers with the global need, from infrastructure and support for their work. Uh, our guest, Billy B history, uniquely positions him as a leader in the space of bringing to light what it means to be in service to the impact economy with technology, uh, instead of being in service to technology as consumers, we also talk a lot about how polarization has crept into technology and the need for breaking down barriers to dialogue. These are frequently erected when technology is created to stimulate addiction, gamification and reward ever divergent narratives, Tim. Speaker 1 00:01:39 Yeah. So, um, I'm so excited to introduce our guest, Billy B last year, Marty Webb from tech soup introduced Billy B to Tracy as part of a research project that Billy was doing. And what was gonna be a quick conversation, turned into several hours of back and forth and, Speaker 2 00:02:02 Uh, mind you, it was noon my time, but it was 9:00 PM where Billy was. So this was until like 1130 at night, his time. Speaker 1 00:02:11 Yeah, because he was calling in and in, um, and today is calling in from Greece. So, um, yeah, Billy is backed. Um, so bill is a community designer who specializes in helping organizations unlock the power of innovation through platform thinking he's got more than 20 years of professional experience he's led numerous successful community technology programs and mission driven organizations, including mindful schools, tech soup and meetup. His work has been recognized by president Obama's office of social innovation. And he's been an invited speaker at, so by Southwest multiple times, Billy, we are really excited to have you on with us today. Speaker 2 00:02:56 Enjoy everyone. Speaker 2 00:02:59 Hey, Billy, it is really cool to have you on the show today. And I know that from where I stand, it has been two years of getting to know you and getting to know the work that you're doing and getting to see your passion executed across what I call the impact economy, but the nonprofit ecosystem, both in the United States and globally. And I think one of the things that I want to ask you first is you've been a huge booster of why it matters, but where you began was the United States Marine Corps in the late 1990s. So how did you go from us? M C to the work that you're doing now to basically looking at folks like Tim and I, and being like, Hey, these ding bats are, are on to something here. Tell, tell us that story, please. Speaker 3 00:04:10 Yeah. How did, how did you DBAs become my people? Uh, Speaker 2 00:04:14 Exactly. Cause wow, where I, I am not M C might be of this at all. Speaker 1 00:04:22 That might be the name of this, this episode, by the way, is how did you, how did you dig backs become my people. I love it. That is so great. Speaker 3 00:04:30 Um, well, so yeah, it's a, it's a, it's definitely a non-linear, uh, story. I, I, uh, left the Marine Corps in 1996, mid nineties. I was on the internet in 1993 with a dot mill email. And, um, as I left the, the, the core as we call it, I knew I was going back to college. Um, and, but I didn't, I didn't necessarily know where I was. I didn't have a, a very clear idea of what I wanted to be when I grew up, so to speak. And this is, I was still already at that point 23 years old, but I, I knew what I didn't wanna be. I, I, you know, the, I, I tell people the Marine Corps taught me many things. Probably the most important thing it taught me was like, what I didn't, uh, want to be and who I, who I didn't wanna be. Speaker 3 00:05:23 Um, because you just see this swath of humanity. Uh, you spend so much time with people from the whole spectrum of the world and, uh, you see the habits of, of different people and you kind of gravitate towards the, uh, values and habits of those kinds of people you, you wanna become. So it was, it was, uh, it was a, it was an, it was definitely an education, but, um, I went to university at, uh, the university of San Francisco. I studied history. Um, I, I always had an interest in history and, uh, social history to be specific, like this idea of how, um, groups work and, um, how groups influence the shape of history and, and world events. That's always been of interest to me. Um, and, and I just followed my nose there. I went to, it was a Jesuit university university of San Francisco. Speaker 3 00:06:18 So, uh, there was a social justice, uh, theme that was very real at the university. It was a kind of just understood that service was a part of, uh, the culture. And it was promoted, uh, in, in, in very explicit and implicit ways at, at USF. And, and sort of this idea of service was just this theme that felt very, uh, real to me and important to me. And I, I thought, oh, well, let's just follow this, this notion that maybe I should be in service to something. Um, uh, so maybe I should, should try and build a career where I'm in service to something. Initially. I thought it was education and teaching. Um, but I quickly learned during the first.com boom, that, um, it was really hard to make a living as a teacher and then wait tables in the evenings and weekends to pay that San Francisco rent. Wait, what you, you Speaker 1 00:07:17 Studying there? What, what Speaker 3 00:07:19 Years were you that that was.com? Boom, uh, one, uh, so 97, 97, 98, uh, 99. I finished in 2000. So Speaker 1 00:07:29 I was studying down the street from you then. Speaker 3 00:07:32 Oh, is that right? Speaker 1 00:07:33 Yeah. At, uh, San Francisco state, Speaker 3 00:07:36 Yeah. Okay. Okay. Speaker 1 00:07:38 Or at no, that year I would've been at San Francisco city college, which was an amazing education. Speaker 3 00:07:43 I, I was at city college. In fact, I was, I was there first for a year and a half before SF. I, I didn't wanna to city college of San Francisco. Oh Speaker 1 00:07:53 My gosh. That's amazing. Speaker 3 00:07:55 Amazing. I love city college to San Francisco. It's amazing. I, I, I ran, I ran into a philosophy professor, uh, uh, 20 years later and we're in touch again, bill Braves. That's cool. Shout out to you, uh, city college, amazing place. Anyway. Uh, yeah. So I thought to, to answer the question, like, how do I go from Marine to this impact economy person? Uh, it was just this meandering road where I thought first, I thought, okay, I'm gonna get into education. Uh, I taught at a progressive school, uh, in, in the city, uh, at a aim high urban school, hate, hate, upper hate. Uh, that was amazing. And I thought, oh yeah, I, I wanna be in the world with students and help them find their interest and cultivate their own education and interests, uh, as a guide, not like, you know, the guru. Um, but, but again, the economics of teaching were terrible. Speaker 3 00:08:50 And so I said, oh, again, as a guy who was an enlisted guy guy in the Marines, I I'm a very practical person. I was just like waiting tables at night, struggling to pay my $900 a month rent in 1999, whatever it was for a room. And I was like, oh, no, forget this. Uh, so I, I ended up, um, to fast forward, uh, the story a bit, I jetted outta San Francisco for Vermont. I thought I was doing a back to the land play, uh, while this.com one was going. Uh, but the, that didn't work so much. So I was, I, I ended up, uh, working at this newspaper called the Burlington free press on the business side, on the advertis. I know the Burlington free press. There you go. I grew up in new England. That's hilarious. Yeah. Burlington free press in Burlington. Speaker 3 00:09:45 Vermont got a job as with online advertising, just as online. Uh, just, just as a classified business was starting to dwindle. Uh, so the online side of the business was okay at that moment, did that for about a year. Moved back to New York, uh, worked at one 800 flowers.com doing corporate development, uh, for another year, not the right fit, sort of in a cubicle doing B2B deals with, uh, telcos and te uh, and, and technology companies, purchasing officers, helping them consolidate their gifting, uh, programs with one 800 flowers.com. Uh, so that was interesting. It was, it was, it was an interesting experience to sort of see the corporate world from the inside. And it just, it just wasn't for me. So I, uh, I moved on after a year, and then I, I found this job at a startup called meetup, um, dot com and meetup was just launching. Speaker 3 00:10:47 Uh, there were about four or five months, I think out of the gate, I was an early employee first sales biz dev role there, trying to help them introduce their MVP to the, uh, small business network of people who were hosting, uh, little, little entrepreneurs, little shops like bookshops and cafes who were hosting meetups. Um, we were, our, our business model was built on this idea that we would help drive retail traffic to these small businesses. And, um, we built this small business network to make sure that these meetups were awesome for our meetup groups. And so that, that experience was incredible because I saw the potential of like using social technology to empower people and also build a business that was sort of profitable. So that, that was like this really groundbreaking experience for me, where I saw that, oh, wait, maybe there's a place for me to take my interest in, uh, social psychology and groups and, and like how groups work and, um, maybe maybe make it a values driven business. Speaker 3 00:12:00 How do you do that? Like, how do you make a mission driven values driven business model? Like that was just, it was all new to me. It was all new vocabulary. It was new ideas, but it was all coming together. And as I spent more time in DC, so 2003, uh, thi this is going back 2003, nearly 20 years ago. Um, Howard Dean, a, a governor of Vermont at the time decides to run for president of the United States with this sort of grassroots campaign. He ends up using, uh, meetup as his platform to unlock grassroots participation. And so he raises, he goes on to raise about 20, 20 million in 12 weeks, which was the most money raised for a candidate at the time. Uh, and, and it's very innovative fashion with a very small team of, I don't know, it was maybe 10 campaigners in his Burlington office. Speaker 3 00:12:56 And, um, I basically, that, that, that just exploded, right? So tower Dean gets on the cover of time magazine and because Dean's getting all this coverage, everyone in DC who was tapped in, wanted to do what deemed did right. Naturally it's like, let <laugh>, I was like, Tim, uh, can we go do what, uh, Dean did? And, and, and, and Tim's like, yeah, uh, go tell me what we need to do. And so these nonprofits, these big federated nonprofits, like planned parenthood and Sierra club and, um, human rights campaign, they start ringing up meetup and they're like, we want, we want, we want, we want meetups <laugh>. So bill, I, I, I was bill at the time Bill's on the phone is like, yes, uh, deputy director of human rights campaign. How can I help you? Yeah. We'd like to do, oh, we'd like some, uh, meetups, uh, oh, okay. Speaker 3 00:13:51 Well, let, let me, uh, let me come down and see, let me learn more about how, how this all works. So I ended up spending like three days a week in DC for over a year with these federated nonprofits. And I, I quickly learned that like, mostly the big organizations wanted to figure out how to do fundraising. And I was like, wait a minute, let's go back to the original vision of these grassroots, local chapters and empower these local chapters and these local leaders with this new set of tools to mobilize the grassroots like that. That was my orientation as a, as a guy who studied civic history in America. Right. And they were like, no, we want some polling. We, it was like, that's our Speaker 1 00:14:33 That's program director. You need to talk to our program director for that, but we're just trying to raise money right Speaker 3 00:14:38 Now. Yeah. They were a fun, they were on a fundraising tip and I was on this sort of, sort of grassroots bottom up, uh, building the grassroots tip, even though I, I was in the business of selling them, uh, a service of some kind, putting together an enterprise service offering. Uh, long story short, I spent, uh, a year talking to these executive directors, deputy directors about their needs and put together an enterprise, uh, program for them. Um, but then I, then I realized at, at, at a certain point, you know, what, this isn't going, where I was, where I think this wasn't tapping the potential that I thought was, was there. So I made, I made a bold move and, uh, decided to leave. And, and I wanted to, I thought I had this just assumption that maybe, maybe I could make more impact and be of more service if I was working on the inside of the nonprofit sector and helping them think about social technology, uh, as an ally, not as a business developer at a, as a, at a sexy startup kind of thing. So that's how that, that was the start. And I, I, I started as a, uh, partnership manager at Techup sometime in the mid two thousands. Speaker 2 00:15:53 I I'm blown away by that. There are two or three things. I, I, I just wanna cherry pick from that, Billy, like one, you said a phrase that is very near and dear to my heart. And that is in service two. When you talked about working with nonprofits in the impact economy and why that phrase is so important is to me, at least, is because it represents a mental shift around what it means to do business with the impact economy. And I I've said this for years, I've said to companies, large and small, you are taking on responsibility for shepherding the nonprofit ecosystem when you choose to do business in service to the nonprofit ecosystem. And I have gotten a very wide gamut of responses to that back at me, anywhere from we get it, but it's not profitable to what the hell are you talking about? Speaker 2 00:17:06 Like we're here to sell software or, or products or whatever, whatever. And then every once in a while, you'll get one, that's like, totally understand it. This is a long game. This is developing people in the ecosystem. And, and I think about some of the conversations we had at the past year with why it matters, uh, notably someone like, uh, Adam Rosenswag over at Octa comes to mind who, by the way, just got promoted. Congratulations, Adam. And honestly, those building blocks of we can be both a business, but we can also be a business in service to the impact economy. If you get those right. It fundamentally changes how you do business, at least with that particular world. And I just wanna say that is an expression that I have tried to use in many contexts, but it really just hit my heartstrings when you said that. So thank you. Speaker 1 00:18:16 I'm gonna chime in on that too. I know you've got other things to try I pick, but oh yeah. One, one point I wanna make on that. I love that you said that, you know, um, that you you're in, you're essentially saying I wanna be intentional about what I'm in service to, and I wanna connect that to you are a serviceman for the Marines. Yeah. You're in service to something. And, and I think what, um, what doesn't happen enough is that people don't view their career lens through a intentional service model. Like I want to be intentional about where I'm serving. And I think that there's a reactive version of that. That is like, I wanna assume that this thing I'm doing is good. And I think the blinders have come off a lot of that type of thinking. And I think future generations are going to be much more intentional about what that service looks like. They call it values and, you know, they will have other language for it, but it is that same idea that we want to be very clear about what it is, our labor, our taxes, our lives are going towards, and we want to be in service to that, not accidentally, but intentionally. And I think there's all, I, I don't think everybody had that frame, you know, that you had with that. And, um, so I, I think it's really interesting. Um, you know, so back back to your cherry picking Tracy. Speaker 2 00:19:44 Oh yeah. I mean, so the other part of this that I wanted to cherry pick out was your mention of Howard Dean. And if I correctly recall my political history because Howard Dean was super fascinating to me back in the era that he was both governor and launching what it would've been, his 2004 presidential bid, I believe. And one of the outcomes of what he did ultimately meant that what Barack Obama was able to do in 2008 was hire a bunch of his people to recreate it in the next iteration. So they built an app, they did citizen participation fundraising and get out the vote. And if I wanted to, I could just volunteer for the Obama campaign through my mobile phone. And that was the next iteration of that. I, I just wanna say that is where democratized technology works best. And I didn't know that you were kind of stamping around that arena back in that era, but I will say that one of the things that you also touched on was constant participation. Speaker 2 00:21:07 And we have, in some ways, abdicated constant participation in favor of constant agitation. And those two things are not the same. Everybody has an opinion, but nobody's doing anything about it. That's constant agitation. If you want to participate, it means showing up with the mindset that you just described. And that is how can I show up and be of service to you? Um, by the way, total sidebar, if anyone at the DNC is really listening to this, you could really stand to do very well to go back to the 50 states strategy at this point, hashtag just saying, but, you know, Speaker 1 00:21:55 I'm sure that thank you Howard to this. No, I'm sure they're not. I think that may, I'm sure they're not. I think that might change the course of American politics. No, I very much Speaker 2 00:22:04 Tell that. Great. I very much doubt that. Speaker 1 00:22:07 Okay. So Alex Cino will, Speaker 2 00:22:09 Howard Dean was on something and it worked, Speaker 1 00:22:12 It was even Speaker 2 00:22:13 In states like Kansas and Oklahoma, you know, so it worked, Speaker 1 00:22:19 Um, and Alex Cino will, uh, absolutely phone me up if I do not mention that the, I have a scream speech was messed up audio. Absolutely. And talk about, talk about what technology can do. Like there's a whole episode right there around, you know, what can, what can go wrong with technology? Oh, Speaker 2 00:22:41 Well the best video I ever saw was an audio technician who works down in Hollywood, took apart the Dean screen video and the spacial audio on it and said, actually, it sounded nothing like what got Speaker 1 00:22:55 Recorded on the that's the whole that's. Yeah, that's what Speaker 2 00:22:58 I'm saying. So, so, I Speaker 1 00:22:58 Mean, we'll put that in the show notes. Alexina that's for you because I know that you will want to make sure that gets out there. So, all right. Back to the main story, sorry. Speaker 2 00:23:07 Well, Alexina being Tim's daughter who gave him the nickname. Peace chipmunk on, Speaker 1 00:23:12 We gotta bring that Speaker 2 00:23:13 Up. I'm so happy about unbelievable, but those two big points, Billy, thank you for just having them as part of your history. Really. Sorry. I'm gonna get to get off. I, I get super invested in political history, so just thank you, Tim, over to you, man. Otherwise I'll just geek out on this all day. Speaker 1 00:23:32 No, I I'm. I'm, I'm glad to take it from there. Um, and Billy that, you know, I'm a recent friend of yours and, um, and by can, can I just say thank you, by the way, for the positive vibes, uh, the plugs that you've given to why it matters and the first, I, I don't think that you would have any way to know this, but the first time that we met, we had just released, um, my why it matters episode where I talk about being suicidal. And, um, and when I, when I first met you, your, your words encouraging me about what that meant to you came at a moment where I was like, man, I just put a lot out there. I hope that that is not gonna be weird. And, um, and, and you were the first person to lay tracks on my thinking about that. And it was really encouraging. So I just wanna say thank you both for listening, but also for continuing to give us feedback, uh, about the show. We really, really appreciate it. Um, Speaker 3 00:24:34 Well, it's why, and no, I, I appreciate that. And, and I, I appreciate the, I'll just say publicly how I appreciate, I appreciate the, the, the, the tone and the sincere that you bring to these conversations. And I feel like it's sorely missing. So I'm, I'm happy to be in, in conversation with you both and, and, and happy to, uh, evangelize, uh, about your, your, your work to anyone. I get my, uh, ear, you know, my mouth to their ear. Speaker 1 00:25:07 Yeah. Well, please keep it up. We, we love it. And, um, yeah. And thank Speaker 2 00:25:12 You for someone who likes to have the conversation like I do, but then doesn't pay attention to anything. So it's like my, my, my experience with why it matters over the past few years has been podcast. They got that on the iPods now, you know, like Tim's always like, look at the analytics. I'm like, what? Speaker 1 00:25:31 Yeah, sure. I, that that's so true that nails it. Um, Billy, we, we, I wanna go back to social history, social psychology and how groups work to create healthy conversation. So, um, I mean, the idea of healthy conversation and group psychology, social history, social, like those feel more disconnected to me than, you know, now than they have at, at any other. It feels like, um, it just doesn't feel like that's the way it trends, um, or has recently, can you, can you offer some hope to us yeah. About that? Speaker 3 00:26:14 Yeah. Well, I, I, I, um, Speaker 3 00:26:18 I think I, I mean the one way of seeing things is, is the way I, I, one, one of another favorite podcast, mine, this guy named, he goes by blind boy boat club at a Limerick Ireland. Um, he calls Twitter like a, a video game that that's based on you getting points for. It's basically a point based video game. And, uh, the, the sort of the point system creates a dynamic where, you know, dunking and polarizing statements get points, not sort of, uh, grounded, regulated, thoughtful comments, or thoughtful inputs, thoughtful conversations. So, so my analysis over the last 10 years having been in the social space for 20 years is that over 10 years as these larger platforms have become the dominant arena for, uh, dialogue or, you know, we have this impression that it's all off the rails, because when you go on Twitter, I, I don't know many people who go on Twitter and feel good, five minutes later. Speaker 3 00:27:35 I know I don't, I, I don't feel good after, uh, scrolling on Twitter even just for a few minutes. Um, and so then there's, it's easy to, to feel as if, well, it's all off the rails. And, and by the way, I don't even have a voice in the arena. <laugh> because I only have my thousand 1200 followers, whatever, or I didn't get any likes today. It's easy to feel that way. But, but, but if we're honest, we know that that's not real because we have genuine conversations and that touch us as, as humans, every day with the people in our homes and the people in our neighborhoods and the people that our jobs and, and, and it happens, right. So the connection with humans still happens. Uh, being parts of groups is still happening, you know, um, I'm part of a few meditation groups, uh, still still part of some meet up groups. Speaker 3 00:28:40 Uh, I have real relationships there and I care about those people's lives and what they're going through. And, uh, the, I feel heard. Uh, so, so, you know, it's the contrast of like, oh, I'm on, on Twitter. I, I don't exist. I don't have a big enough following. I don't get the likes. I don't even, I don't even know how to really engage anymore because it's such a volatile context or environment. I, I feel just over stimulated or, uh, not welcome on some level, uh, same with Facebook and, and even LinkedIn, the, the, the performative, uh, nature of things on LinkedIn. It's, it's just, it's a little bit like, whoa, what's really going on here is what what's real. And, and so then, then the natural responses to the, the, the, the healthy response I think, is to retreat and to pull back and be like, wait a minute, how am I, how am I engaging on these platforms? Speaker 3 00:29:40 What do I really want to get out of these platforms? Uh, I know they're not giving me what I wanted previously 20 years ago. It was, it was sort of understood that we, we, we had this sort of earnest dreams of a different, a different way of doing democracy, a different way of doing neighboring a different way of being collaborators. That was the early vision and early dream, I think for many of us, uh, and, and, and yeah, okay, fine. That was very off <laugh> at scale. It, it doesn't, it doesn't turn out to be so, uh, uh, kind and kind and gentle. Uh, but, uh, that's okay. I think you pivot and you realize, okay, I've got this real world life. Uh, how am I going to make, make the most of, of that? How am I going to use the skills I've developed to, to, to, to make groups, support groups, uh, that are reflective of my values and, uh, create safe space for people, uh, to, to sort of share things that they, they can't share anywhere else, et cetera, et cetera. Speaker 3 00:30:51 Right. So you, you kind of, you just sort of recognize the limits of one medium and you, you kind of pivot to back to the real world again. And I think we're at this stage now where, um, I think the smallest, beautiful ethos that, that is, you know, 60 years old now, uh, maybe it's it's much older, but I think that, I think small is beautiful. I think that, um, working with, uh, small groups online is still really, really feasible and viable, um, for, for right. It it's, it's, it's, it's totally doable. The last project I worked on, um, in the us was this project called mindful schools. And one of the, one of the sort of features we built into the programming was we, we created, uh, practice groups where public school teachers could get together with other teachers and, and practice meditation with one, with each other and express how their practice was going in a very safe, confidential space with people who understood the stresses of being a teacher. And it was, it was really vital for those teachers having that, that safe space. Right. So that, of course, that doesn't get the so much press coverage. Uh, but because it's like, you know, cause conflict fells, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not bleeding, it's not bleeding. Speaker 2 00:32:25 Polarization creates dollars. Right. I mean, speaking as someone who's gone through a few profound disappointments in the it industry, you know, I have <laugh> <laugh> I know exactly what I'm getting out of social media, which is nothing, cuz I'm not there and you are, Speaker 3 00:32:45 You're literally getting out of social media. Speaker 2 00:32:47 Yeah. I'm only on LinkedIn and I justify it by the fact that I pay for it and I say, okay, this I'm going to use as the tool for which it was designed. Yeah. Now I do have a Twitter account that is completely locked down at this point. But what I get out of that is an extra bonus entry on Mac rumors once a week, when they do raffles for saying that I follow them on Twitter. So, you know, that that's the extent of my engagement with Twitters is an extra entry in a weekly raffle from Mac rumors. So there you go. But you know, I think what I would, the way that I want to say this, Billy, is that experience that you just described is also happening in technology. And this connects directly to some of the work that Tim and I are utterly insourced by that you've been doing. And that is the work around what you're calling makers in technology. So connect the dots for folks and say, how does that community experience relate now to the impact economy, the development of technology and the accessibility of it across a global ecosystem of people wanting to make change. Speaker 3 00:34:10 Yeah, sure. So, um, so for context, I've, I've been working on, uh, a project with, uh, Marni Webb over at tech soup, uh, to just investigate it, it basically, it was a discovery process, a sense making project to, uh, investigate this field, this emergent, very nascent field of, uh, some, some folks were calling it public interest technology. Uh, we called the field civic technology 10 years ago when I was, uh, working with morning directly. Um, but, but now there's this, the, the evolution of civic tech, uh, the evolution of this sort of field of mission driven people who have technology skills who maybe want to go into government service. That's great. That's that path is getting much more clear. The us digital services core, uh, has the, has, has launched with Obama, right? Um, the, the UK, they've got a very vibrant, uh, service innovation. You can't Speaker 2 00:35:14 Huge vibrant services, right? Yeah. Speaker 3 00:35:16 Yeah. So, so now people in the humanities who have this sort of, they might have a humanities and tech hybrid lens or background, uh, in the world, they're, they're, they're seeing a clear path to government service back to the theme of service and that's amazing and it's getting more robust, uh, as we go, it turns out that Ford and ULI and new America have a university network that's promoting, uh, these career paths for public interest technologists, which is amazing. Um, again, I've only learned about this the last couple of years. Um, and, uh, basically, so basically what I, what I did was I, I did a sense making exercise to look at this emerging field of, of, uh, people who are responsible for building shipping and maintaining technology that serves the public good. Right? That, that, that was kind of the lens and the orientation I took to the, to the research. Speaker 3 00:36:13 And what I learned is that, um, this field is, is really, really fractured. What, right? It's like, there's no single convener in the field as much as Ford is investing in, uh, this university network and career, the career scaffolding, uh, the, the, the people who are building the tools themselves, they're, they're not necessarily organized to use a meetup term or a community organized term. They're not necessarily organized, right. And this is fascinating to me, uh, as someone who's been in this space for as long as I have, it's just like the tech is advancing and advancing and advancing. Uh, the people are, uh, committing to this path, but for whatever reason, the field is not, is not so clear. It's sustainability, the business models of these products, it turns out is really hard unless you're building products and technology for government agencies, it's kind of tough to find a business model, right. Speaker 3 00:37:18 We saw the civic tech, uh, boom and night foundation invest in civic tech back 10 years back, hundreds of millions of dollars. Uh, there's a civic tech field guide with thousands of projects in there. Matt stamp back, shout out to him. He's been curating this, this incredible project for years now. Uh, and I'm, I'm looking at this very fractured space and I'm going well, it's interesting. It's like, it's not just the software developers. It's not just project managers or it people, which is the old model. Um, it's product managers. Now it's program managers, it's community managers that are responsible for, for shipping, uh, software projects at, at, at nonprofits, right? Like these people are involved with building tools for public benefit for the public. Good. And yet, um, that's all true. We know that we know those people who are working on this project, whether it's a, a Salesforce implementation at a small grassroots, nonprofit, like a mindful schools, which I was part of. Speaker 3 00:38:25 Uh, and I, I, I watched that project go from, uh, concept to implementation or it's, uh, re recognizing that. So it's time for, to build an app. Uh, so, so people are building apps, but who's building who's build. Are they just shipping it out to a dev shop? Well, sometimes yes. And sometimes no, it's, it's this hybrid thing, right? Like, do we buy it, do we ship, do we, do we build it? Do we buy it? And, um, long story short, uh, I feel like this field is ripe for, um, well, it's ripe for development. I, I, I think that, that, that it's a multi stakeholder environment. There's funders on one side there's tech companies on, uh, on the supply side, so to speak with the, with the different products. And then there are these, these people who are actually the builders themselves, and they're not necessarily talking to each other, right. Speaker 3 00:39:25 And the voice of the builders or the makers based on my literature review over the last year, it's not there, you know, the open data programs and the open data movement over the last 10 years from all the big tech companies have open data programs, uh, the big, big federated and global nonprofits, the world bank has, uh, open data programs. Uh, the IMF has open data programs. Uh, those are all wonderful. And, and it's amazing that these institutions are putting resources out there and organizing this data, uh, so that developers can actually use it to build useful innovations and products, but the voice of those developers, the voice of those project managers program managers, I, I just don't, I just don't see it in the literature. And I'm that, that's where my interest lies. I think there's an opportunity there. Speaker 1 00:40:20 One number that I think has to get out there that you said. And then, um, when we were talking a couple of months back after I was reading this, um, since making report, um, and, uh, I actually was trying to relay the information and I took, I didn't believe the number, so I took 10 X off of it. And it still felt like a huge number, um, to me, but you like how many nonprofit tech, you know, organizations are we talking about here? Speaker 3 00:40:55 Yeah, yeah. So the data I pulled from my research was based on a, a report that a report, uh, it's called, uh, no code is the report. I actually, uh, I'm gonna mess up the author's names. So I'll, I'll send it to you for show notes, uh, but a collect a, a collection of, uh, organizations and people develop this paper, uh, and, and basically made the case that there's this tranche of organizations that self-identify as NP tech organizations, community technology organizations, and, um, they're big on open data. They're big on technology as the driver of mission based work and it's into tens of thousands. They, they identified, I think it was 30,000 organizations who self-identify as technology centric organizations, uh, either as individual, uh, consultants or organizations themselves. So it's clear that there's this, um, there's a critical mass, uh, on some level of these people, Speaker 1 00:42:03 Pretty between 30 and 40,000, right? Like, um, because I, I there's, there's about 30,000 that are just nonprofit tech, but then there's a bunch of other categories Speaker 3 00:42:15 Yes. Speaker 1 00:42:15 That are included in that like privacy and yes. Uh, you know, um, data, Speaker 3 00:42:21 Data and society. Yes, Speaker 1 00:42:23 Exactly. And, and that number bumps it up to almost 40,000. And that is, that's a lot that is not like coordinated in any way to, to talk about it your way. Um, like those Speaker 3 00:42:36 Are the practitioners, those are the practitioners in my language or vernacular. Right. And that, that those, those are the folks I'm, I'm referencing as that, that those whose voices aren't necessarily getting the profile as, as much as I think, um, the would be worth, it would be worthy to elevate those, those perspectives. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:42:56 Can I ask a follow up on that, Billy I'm sure. Intensely curious about this movement and the reason why is because my recent history has been all on the side of corporate tech, and one of the challenges to me of building and distributing any kind of technology tool is the challenge of governance and execution. How do you put a real development life cycle behind what you're doing and how do you do it consistently over time to make the thing that you are building useful to others? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. So my question is how are these organizations solving that problem? Because I've been in rooms with nonprofits who have said to me, what we want to do is be a technology builder. And I've had to say to them, do you know what that means? Do you understand that you can't just make a thing once you have to develop a process and a strategy for remaking it as the constituency you're trying to serve with it grows and evolves. So how are these organizations and people solving that problem? Speaker 3 00:44:19 Yeah. So it's a great question. And, uh, I'll just point to a, a, a new example or use case as a, as a, as a good reference for us. So have you, you seen this Ukraine take shelter project yes. That these two Harvard, uh, students built. Okay. Basically it was, it was positioned or described as a strip down Airbnb that they built in. I don't know the course of a weekend or something. Right. Yeah. They they're Harvard students, so they probably built it with a lot of like red bull and joy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In incre incredible incredibly is how it's pronounced incredible, powerful, uh, use case of these, these, these makers, right? Like, there's, there's a, it is a phenomenon, right? That, that now that if the technology becomes more and more accessible, more and more easy to use, uh, the no code revolution, uh, for example, is, is making all that accessible to more and more and more people, uh, that, that then, then people see a problem in the world and they try and fix it. Speaker 3 00:45:24 They're not asking their Congress person for permission that, that that's just not their orientation. Right. So they went and built something. Now they, they went and built this and they, they just crossed the 1 million user mark after, I don't know, 40 or 50 days, right. The, the conflicts going on for 58 days or 60 days, they built it shortly after the, it kicked off. Uh, so there, there are two month old project. Now, did those folks think about maintenance and support, uh, use cases and issues for their software? I don't think so. I don't think they got that far. I think they saw a problem and wanted to build a solution. And so, of course, I don't wanna speak for them. They, they can speak, uh, for themselves, but, uh, I saw recently them on Twitter, uh, talking about a need for, uh, support from Stripe, uh, to help with the processing of, of donations. Speaker 3 00:46:26 They were in a, a bind. And I, I messaged them and said, well, I would just reach out to Patrick at Stripe. And sure enough, Patrick on Twitter gets back to them and, you know, essentially gives them a donation for, uh, some Stripe credits, whatever to help them solve their problem. Um, are they, uh, are they done with, with, uh, organizational issues? No. In fact, Dave just begun, right? This Ukraine take shelter, needs to iden find a fiscal sponsor. Uh, they, you know, the user agreement, the user agreement, uh, everything from end to end on their product needs to be audited and, uh, essentially formalized. Uh, so all I'm, well, I'm using this as an example, cuz I think it's, it's an extreme case. It's an extremely high impact case on one hand, from an innovation standpoint of citizens using the power of the internet and these new tools to solve social problems. Speaker 3 00:47:28 It's amazing. And it's also a good use case to illustrate how our infrastructure for a digital civil society is lagging is lagging where the makers are, right. The makers, in this case, they are looking at the problems building the solutions. But, uh, the infrastructure that helps them ensure that their product is, uh, legal, uh <laugh> and safe and secure and maintainable, et cetera. Cetera is, is not there for them. So they're on Twitter asking for help. Right. And so I think that's the, that's the opportunity, right? How, how can we create a framework that helps the, the, the sort of infrastructure, the digital infrastructure to unlock digital civil society because digital civil society, this is the use case. This is the example. It's not just the human rights campaign in DC. It's, it's, it's, it's the, it's their local chapter and, and, and their friends of, of the local chapter at the human rights campaign building solutions. Right? So at least that's how I, that's the, that's the sort of frame I, I bring to it. Speaker 1 00:48:39 I, there's something really interesting about that and I want to connect it to, um, to a project that we've been working on where, um, I don't think I would've connected this, but, um, where there's a breakdown on getting, um, people vouchers for, you know, cars that, that they've gotten a rebate for, you know, for emissions and, and, and so on. And mm-hmm, <affirmative> the breakdown that is that that happens there is at such a practical, basic level, just like it's, it's like Stripe payment transactions, right. Or, you know, in, in this case, it, it is some of the software for approvals combined with the financing so that you can actually do. And you know, what, what civil society asked of the organization, which is make sure that this is all under compliance, which is a very tricky thing. <laugh>, and, and it's easy to forget that. Speaker 1 00:49:39 And the, the other piece of that is that in the, for profit maker space, you've got, uh, you've got scalability and revenue that covers all of that extra expense through margin. And then there's a lot left over. Even after that, mm-hmm, <affirmative> in the, in the civil space, what we're calling the civil space, there's been such a hesitation to fund anything except the most exciting piece of that. So philanthropy is so excited. Funders are so excited to find the Harvard students that are gonna solve that. And then there's an extreme amount of disinterest at the follow up on that, on making sure that there's enough funding to follow the project all the way through. And, you know, it reminds me of, if you, if you were into, uh, that extreme makeover, you know, home makeover back in the, I can't remember Ty, whatever his name was, if you, um, if you find what happens with a lot of those stories, what happened next was that the taxes for those homes went up so much that, uh, quite a few of the homeowners that were recipient of that show ended up having to sell their homes because they couldn't afford the taxes on them. Speaker 1 00:50:57 And I think that this is what in technology being an implementer, you know, Tracy and I have seen this over and over where there, you know, like here's the free licenses and now you're in, but the amount of internal maintenance to cover all of that ongoing is not part of the initial calculation by either funders or by the organizations. And, and so there, you know, we, we've just seen that happen so many times. And I think that part of what you are part of what you're pointing to is the lack of shared data around that. So that people know that this is an actual issue. And, you know, um, and I, I think that there's a lack of interest in knowing that it is, and it goes back to what you said about small being beautiful. We need to actually be so much more interested in small data than big data, right? The small data is where it actually happens and big data is completely dependent on small data. So if you do not have quality data to begin with your big data is, is not actually quality either. Um, so I just, I really appreciate that the report that you've put together, the way that you think about sense making, um, that is, is really helpful and really needed. Speaker 3 00:52:14 Well, thanks. And I mean, one, uh, point to add there is, is, is this is, is, is directly related to this experience with the pandemic. Uh, and I'll, I'll use the word that lots of people are using, uh, uh, maybe overusing, but, uh, I'll use it anyway because I think it's just apt. The, the fact is that in order for us to build a resilient, uh, civil society, um, we must look at the, the small groups and the small makers, the, the people who are building things at a local scale because the local solution and the local scale is what's going to provide resiliency when the big things break. Right. So it's, it's kind of just obvious, right? It's, it's just an obvious understood. No, that's Speaker 1 00:53:09 Not obvious. No, Speaker 3 00:53:10 I don't think that's obvious at all, Billy. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:53:12 Honestly, say more about that. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:53:15 Well, I, I, I, I mean, it's, it's very, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's as old as this sort of Gandian idea of, uh, the village having all of the capacity and capabilities to sustain itself at the village level. Right. And so, uh, it's the same model applies where at the local community level, the, the ideal would be that local community leaders would have the infrastructure and support to support local innovation and the local products that, that power, that local digital economy. We talk about the digital economy. We talk about the digital civil society. It's not just in DC, the digital civil society. It's not just in San Francisco, right? It's like, it's, it's in these, these last mile towns in America across America. If we want those towns to participate in this digital transformation in this digital economy and this innovation economy, then the opportunity is to think about the digital infrastructure that supports them at the local level. I think, Speaker 2 00:54:28 You know, Billy two other things I'm hearing and tell me if this is correct or not, one is not, everything has to have a shelf life. Uh, and what I mean by that is, I mean, first it's antithetical to how I was schooled in technology development. Right? You develop something, you have to give it life. You know, it's like raising a dog, you, you, you take responsibility for the end to end journey of the dog. But, um, what I'm hearing in, what you're saying is not everything has to have a shelf life. And why that's important is because when you stop looking at technology as being an eternal solution, and when you start looking at it as being a solution that requires a certain set of, uh, prerequisites in order to be enabled, then what you're actually doing is freeing people by saying, we're gonna focus on meeting those prerequisites so that when the next X factor happens, whatever that X factor may be war on Ukraine, hurricane, or, you know, let's be a little optimistic here and say, amazing democratic campaign for a candidate, right. Speaker 2 00:55:56 That they don't have to worry about, you know, which tools they're pulling out of the tool chest. They just have them available to them. They can build what they need and when the thing is done. So is the technology, it can all be sunset. That's one thing I'm hearing in what you're saying, the other thing I'm hearing and what you're saying, and I'm gonna connect it to something that Tim has said to me on a number of occasions. And I do credit him with this. See, Tim occasionally comes up with smart things. Um <laugh> um, and that is, you know, Tim, you have said directly in a web 3.0 world relationships are the currency and what I'm actually hearing embedded in what you say, Billy is therefore the responsibility of those technologies that are intending themselves to be eternal, or at least have a very long shelf life. One of their responsibilities is convening and relationship building for the purposes of these ad hoc moments. Speaker 3 00:57:12 Yeah. I mean, I mean, I think, I think, uh, you know, I think trust is the, is the ultimate currency right? To build on the relationships is the currency comment. Uh, I think that underneath that is this idea of trust. As long as we believe that the dollar is a dollar and it's worthy, it works, the currency is viable. Uh, and we also know that trust is fundamentally, um, uh, it's place-based right. Community is a place-based phenomena. So in a place-based, uh, context, the local, uh, context and the local orientation is where trust, uh, trust grows and is most robust, right? It's most robust at the very, very local level. So to your point about, uh, the first point about shelf life, you know, if, if, if, if I was still in startup world, I, my running mental model is that 90% of everything we ship is not going to work and everything we invest in is not going to work. Speaker 3 00:58:16 That's a fundamental assumption in the private sector, right? In, in, in specifically around innovation, we, we all know that most things just don't work and that's okay. And we want to just keep going and, and recognize that with, uh, a, a very, uh, disciplined process, we will iterate and create value over time. So I'm all I'm suggesting is the same kind of paradigm in the, uh, civil sector, in the civil digital society. We, why can't we assume that most of the things that we build aren't necessarily going to, uh, come to full fruition per se, in that, in that instantiation or that form, even, but the act of looking at a problem and developing a solution, and then iterating on that over time is kind of the, the kind of culture and the values that we're trying to, to cultivate here and, and, and build on right. And grow. So, Speaker 1 00:59:15 I mean, are you going meta on infrastructure there where you're just like, like we functionally what that ends up meaning is that there's a space and time in which the conversation and the thing you make is the infrastructure to make the infrastructure. Right. And so, Speaker 3 00:59:32 Um, yeah, I mean, I mean, I wanna separate, I wanna separate, separate, like, to be clear, like there's a emergency response infrastructure that, that has to work and has to be there. Yeah. Right. And, and, and, and, and then there's, there's innovations like this, uh, Ukraine takes shelter example where, yeah, it's, it's, it's much more on the forward edge of innovation and we want to create space in the culture for that kind of innovation. Right. Because it's creating value for these literally millions of refuges, 5 million people who do not have homes, and there's millions, more people who wanna host them and Airbnb, however amazing they are. They aren't gonna be able to do it alone. The Airbnb platform. Yeah. So this new right. So Speaker 1 01:00:18 Helpful. Speaker 3 01:00:20 Yeah. Speaker 1 01:00:21 Um, Billy, your, your work is, um, so creative and innovative your way of thinking about this. Um, I mean, one note that I want to come back to personally is that you're raising the question. What part of people are you connecting? You know, and so when I think about, especially the human stack, and I think about the deep connections that we've made in digital platforms, it, it, it raises the question. What part of people are we connecting? Are we connecting the best parts of them? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I think when I look at what meetup was about, which by the way, thank you for that software is amazing. Yeah. Speaker 3 01:01:02 Meetup is awesome. Even, even in 2022, I love Speaker 1 01:01:05 It. Absolutely. And the, the thing that you're connecting in meetup, you know, connecting in people and the parts of parts of who they are, their psychology, et cetera, the parts that you're connecting there, and the parts that are getting connected on Twitter are really different parts of, of people. And I think that that's a very interesting, uh, a very interesting train line of thinking about what is, what is civil society trying to connect? And I just, I wanna say it's a differentiator because one of the things that's trying to connect is just better. Like it is trying to connect good in a, a way that I think is different than what other platforms are really trying to connect, which frankly is mostly addiction. Like, that's what they're trying to connect to. Speaker 3 01:01:55 Yeah, absolutely. Addiction. I tell the kids this all the time. Exactly. And Tim, it goes, now, now it's, uh, the bell is ringing for me about what you said. And I think it was your last episode about, um, the emotions and feeling one brings to the project and dig. Did you say something like, yep. Re restate what you were saying about like, what, what the feelings you bring and the emotion you bring to the digital transformation is as important as what, what was it? I don't wanna Speaker 1 01:02:23 Absolutely. Well, the failure, the failure that happens and Tracy and I see this all the time, the failure that happens in the last mile is not on the software side. Like it's a calculator. It works. The thing that fails is that we don't account for people's fear and the behavior. And so until we start to say and address that, that fear, and like we were talking about, at one point, you can't be, you can't be curious and afraid, like that's suspicion. Right. And so what, what you, what you have to do is start by relieving that fear create curiosity and positive emotions, or you can't get people to use the software as intended. And we've, we've just left that out of the methodology entirely. Speaker 3 01:03:10 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the, the, the, the, the line that comes to me with, in response to what you're saying is, uh, is this, it's like in the, in the context of civil society, we have to design for generosity. If we believe that the ends of the network will solve real problems and the federal government can't solve at all, and the state government can't solve at all, which we all agree that it's, it's unreasonable to expect any single government entity to solve all of our issues at the community level. If that's true, then we must be design. We must design for generosity with the assumption that people are gonna step up and take a leadership role. Just the, the meet up model was a leadership driven model. You would step up and organize an event. You would organize a meetup, and then you'd be the, the host and shepherd of that group over time. Similarly, in the software context and civil society. What if you bring that frame to the thinking that there's this, this host and this shepherd and this generosity that's powering the mission. I think that's a different orientation. It's a different design, uh, motif than a sort of risk management, uh, centric lens on the work. That's, that's all, that's all I wanna offer. I'm not suggesting it's the solution's, Speaker 1 01:04:38 It's interesting because as we've developed a methodology to, you know, implement the human stack, what is emerging is that leader is the lynchpin. That exactly what you're Speaker 3 01:04:50 About. Absolutely. Speaker 1 01:04:51 The first task. And the second task is to connect that leader to the executive and the executive. And that person's, uh, the combination of that relationship is emerging as one of the most important elements of, uh, a methodology on the human stack it, it is. It's like, it's like with like digital transformation. Yeah. It's like bringing user stories, level of importance, you know, um, on, Speaker 3 01:05:20 On, Speaker 1 01:05:21 On that to draw parity. Um, Tracy, I know you were gonna say, say Speaker 2 01:05:25 Something, oh, I wanted to interject one thing for our listeners benefit too. And that is Billy something you said about designing for generosity does connect to one of our episodes that we did. It was the final episode of what we called season. One of why it matters. And that is we interviewed Ryan Ozek, who has been a long time open source proponent, and talked deeply about a, a technology world based on generosity and contributions based on generosity, not immediate gain. And the model that emerges when you apply that to Billy. What you said is actually when we build a model around generosity, it has payoff that is much, much larger, much further down the road than simply a model based on acquisition, or, you know, as you've both pointed out addiction or immediate short term gain. Speaker 3 01:06:33 Yeah. Look, uh, civic association in America was built on volunteerism. The whole model was built on generosity at the roots in the mid 18 hundreds. And you look at the history of this thing. It's like it started with a neighbor stepping up and inviting a neighbor into conversation about solving a local problem. Okay. So if we go to the most fundamental level at the most fundamental level, the, that is at the root of what's keeping humanity moving forward, uh, someone taking the initiative with a, a, a, a bigger spirit and a bigger concern than, than themselves, and enrolling someone else into the cause. Right. So I, I don't think it departs so far from, uh, I think, I think the formalization of the sector, the professionalization and the tech-centric, uh, evolution of the sector has gotten us talking like, uh, it's all software when in fact, yeah, it is software. Speaker 3 01:07:41 Software is the vehicle or the vessel, but the fundamentals are about humans to Tim's word, it's the human stack. And it's, it's, it's, it's, it's coming from this place of contribution. I want to contribute. I want to enroll others to contribute, cuz I know they want to contribute too. Right. Like, but let's make it relevant. Let's make it, let's make it easy for them to contribute. Right. I, that was that's the, that was that's what meetup did. Well, we, we made it really easy for anyone to step up and take a leadership role, anyone to step up and contribute because Tracy's a leader and I'm not necessarily as invested, but I, but I wanna support Tracy. So I wanna step up on Tracy's behalf. Right. Speaker 1 01:08:26 I don't, I, I mean, um, that first of all, Billy, not everybody knows that part of our history and not everybody. Yeah. Like, I, I don't know that, like, I'm gonna go look that up, like that is really important to keep in mind and, you know, um, it, what it does is that it places, technology where it should go, which is, this is the clipboard that helps you, helps people know what's going on. It's not the end all be all it is in service to the humans and the humans are in service to each other. That is the order. Yeah. And if you, and I think that one of the realities is that, um, by tapping into the addictive parts of technology, they've reversed that, and they've made very Speaker 2 01:09:16 Much, they've made Speaker 1 01:09:16 People in service to the technology and, and those are completely different things. It's why I'm. So I know I'm gonna say it again. I'm so I think the human stack is so important to recognize because otherwise you're in a one dimensional model and the technology will always win in that model. And so, Billy it's just, um, thank you so much for your work. I, I think that it is, it's, it's impactful at levels of complexity that can't hit most, most discord and most like conversation levels, but it's so critical to understand. Um, and so I know that you're out there, I know that you're, um, by the time this episode comes out, uh, you'll have released an article, uh, around some of this that you've co-written with Marni. Hi Marni, hi Marni and, and, and tech soup. Um, and thank you, tech soup and Marni for, uh, for bringing this, this together. And, um, Billy, thank you so much for your work. Um, and for your constant encouragement to Tracy and I about the things we think are important and where we think this needs to go. Speaker 3 01:10:24 Yeah. Well that thanks for having, thanks for having me and, and thanks for doing what you do. Speaker 2 01:10:29 All that. I'll just say all that. And I wouldn't be me if I couldn't get like one or two snarky things in, and I will just say going back to my original statement, if you're out there from the democratic national committee, everything's local 50 state strategy, think about it, cuz we need it more than ever now. Um, but Tim, to your comment about gaming, like that is such like an example of this. I remember the moment in time where things flipped from these eight bit 16 bit things that people built because they wanted to have fun to these. Multi-layered sort of, I'm gonna plug into all the dopamine generation aspects of your brain and just hook you into it. So it's a real thing. And Billy, thank you so much for being on the forefront of moving this conversation forward, about how we can reverse that flow. This is Tracy Kack Speaker 1 01:11:28 And I'm Tim Lockey, Speaker 2 01:11:30 And you've been listening to why it matters an independent production that captures our passions, personalities, and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy. Speaker 1 01:11:41 All of that's important, but even more important. We are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning. Speaker 2 01:11:50 We are so grateful that you've been listening to us. We have no idea why you'd wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you're stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system, or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say, Speaker 1 01:12:06 Whatever the reason, whether it's a bet or you're a believer, would you hit subscribe or if you've already done that, would you mind leaving us a review? 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