Speaker 1 00:00:07 The title of today's episode is simply give, give simply. And we're joined this week by Tina Rowe, COO and co-founder of every.org settlers of QAN player, Stanford alumni, and formerly an early employee and software engineer at snap, which you may know as Snapchat. Hi Tracy.
Speaker 2 00:00:29 Hey Tim, it's really good to see you today. I think also if folks pay attention to the episode, I kept promoting Tina throughout the course of it. So we
[email protected]. I think we ended at grand Dame commander of the British empire. So that worked out well,
Speaker 1 00:00:45 Think so. I think so. Yeah. I think co-founder of the British empire. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Co-founder
Speaker 1 00:00:51 Even, might've thrown that in there as well.
Speaker 2 00:00:53 Uh, folks, this episode's incredible. It's a little longer than our usual one, but what we wanna tell you is that there are incredible people out there putting their intelligence together to make things as simple to give to nonprofits, as it is checking out with your mobile phone, uh, we cover so much philosophical and practical ground and what ties it all together is the understanding that as leaders and business professionals, especially those in service to the impact economy, we will elevate each other more. When our values and actions focus on meeting each other, where we're at, it's really, really easy to look at things like DEI movements, business ownership, software development, and cryptocurrency. All of these are topics we cover as siloed from each other. But the real lesson here that we take away from our time with Tina is that the connections between these are what strengthens, both our purpose and our goals. This is a values episode and one that you really shouldn't miss. Hey, everybody, we're here today with Tina Rowe who amongst many, many experiences is co-founder and chief operating officer of every.org. I love it when we head into a recording session laughing, uh,
Speaker 1 00:02:22 Because
Speaker 2 00:02:22 Oh yeah, totally. It means we're sufficiently doing our job of either asking the right questions or being a total pin in the ass. One of the two, Tina, I <laugh>. Yay. I really wanna ask you first and foremost, um, you have done so much and your experience going from hard code to co-founder and what that journey engendered for you. I think one of the things that folks would really be interested in is understanding as other business leaders, what, what does that look like for a person to get where you are and how does that play itself out when it comes to the complexities of gender and race in it? And, you know, because I'm on a role here, like, what does that mean? What lessons do we need to learn as an industry to keep more people doing as many things as you have?
Speaker 3 00:03:26 Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for, for the generous introduction. Um, yeah, so I, I do consider myself a woman of color and, um, I am an immigrant. Um, I think given the intersectionality of my identities, um, there are certain things that I faced, uh, especially in my earlier years in my career as a computer science student at Stanford. And then, um, working as a software engineer, I, I did feel, um, a lot of, I guess like imposter syndrome and required a lot of guidance from both my peers, as well as my mentors, um, to really grow in my self confidence as a software engineer. And then that allowed me to, you know, step back for a moment and say, what am I doing with the skills that I've learned and the technology that clearly impacts the world in a big way. Um, and so I think it was really the guidance through my peers and through my, um, mentors and specifically at Stanford, I was able to go to the office hours of professors who were also women.
Speaker 3 00:04:44 And in some cases I, I was really struggling at a class and I, I wanted to quit, but they would say, Hey, you should stick around. Um, so I think it's just not putting, I, I try not to put myself onto a pedestal and I don't, I try not to put other people onto a pedestal, but, but really seeing everyone is struggling. But I also think that, um, these are also challenges that could make you stronger and make you learn more. Um, so this question of like, how have you done so much? I don't really know, but I also think a lot of other people are doing a lot too. Um, and this is just like really from my understanding of just like how hard people are working and it doesn't have to be in some outwardly productive way. Like they might be working a lot on themselves.
Speaker 3 00:05:45 And I, I think it's very difficult to, yeah, like difficult to compare sort of like the outward success. I do think that because of my background, um, as like an, I was pushed toward a lot of the things that I felt were, uh, traditionally like the markers of success, like going to a prestigious university. And I was only able to do that through the help of a nonprofit called QuestBridge and, uh, through, through Stanford's general generous financial aid. So I think, um, there, there were just like those markers that I pursued and after working at Snapchat, that was when I really stepped back and considered what is my broader impact? What is the work that I wanna put out there? And that's how I came to every.org. I hope that that answers the question. I know that there was a lot wrapped in there, but we could dig into any, any aspect of that.
Speaker 2 00:06:48 It does. I mean, there is a little, and I do mean a very fractional bit of overlap between your experience and my own. And I grew up in a very sort of conservative Republican, like late seventies, early eighties, New Hampshire, RO Reagan era life. And I was the first person in my family to go to a non-military institution. So up until then, everybody in my family who wanted education, went to some form of either enlisted, they just enlisted straight into the armed forces or in a couple of cases, went to maritime academy stuff. Uh, never sort of like full Naval academy or any of those. But, uh, I was on that trajectory myself to go check out the air force academy in high school. And, you know, the recruiter took one look at me and he was like, you'll never do anything at the air force academy.
Speaker 2 00:07:50 Why are you interested in it? And I was like, because air force and he was like, what's on your face. And I was like pimples. He was like glasses. And I was like, yeah. And he was like, you'll never fly. Why do you want to come? You'll never fly. And I did visit the academy and it was actually profoundly scary. I, and I do mean profoundly scary if, if you could, in that era, if you could have hybridized the worst of tech bro culture with the worst of like jingoism with the worst of evangelical Protestantism, that was the air force academy. And I was like, oh God, this is definitely not who I am. <laugh> um,
Speaker 1 00:08:38 Just trying to imagine you at the air force academy. Yeah. Like, and all I've got for reference is top gun and I'm just kidding. Like, like, I, I can't, I can't fit it in there.
Speaker 2 00:08:49 No, I saved that for my driving now.
Speaker 1 00:08:52 So there you go.
Speaker 2 00:08:52 Yeah. But that overlap, I have to ask you the follow up question. Tina, did your parents ever give you the same line that my mom did? And that was, she's like, Tracy, you take the first job that's offered to you and you just work it and you be grateful that you're employed because you have a job and you take what's offered. Do you understand? Like, that is just such a bullshit narrative now that like, it took me like a good 10 or 15 years of my career to unpick that. Did you get any of that kind of stuff from your folks as well?
Speaker 3 00:09:28 Yeah. Um, so a little bit more about my background. Um, I was born in Korea and I was actually raised by my grandparents who moved to America and my mom passed away at a early age. So my dad, he was like a traditional Korean salary man. Didn't have much time to take care of me and my brother. And one of my mom's dying wishes was for us to study in America. So my grandparents actually adopted me, um, and my brother. And so they raised us on very conservative Korean Christian values. Um, and I think because there was an additional generation gap, sometimes they would have more of an understanding that the world is different because, you know, it's like two generations. Like they came from a war period and had to survive that, um, and already the Korea that they knew was so fundamentally different than sort of the America that we were living in. So I think they understood that there were certain things that were gonna be different. Um, the main lesson they, they did say, Hey, pick these jobs over these other jobs. And they really wanted me to be like a nurse or a teacher I'm so happy. I didn't go down that. Yeah. I
Speaker 2 00:10:42 Was like Dr. Lawyer or military or engineer. And those were like the, that was the pallet of choices.
Speaker 3 00:10:49 Yeah. And actually they did not understand computer science. When I said, I, I wanted to be a software engineer. They just were like, no, you should be a teacher or a nurse. Like, I think you, you do better. Um, because they, they grew up with this idea that women cannot or should not like step forward into a career. And I'm so glad that I didn't do that. And, um, I think America allowed me the opportunity to really cultivate that because the culture back then was, um, it for Korea. And I, I know that some things are still similar, but, um, the culture was that, you know, women are more of the house housekeeper and, uh, they don't really like prioritize their career in the same way. And they definitely did not understand computers. They definitely did not get why I would wanna work like on a laptop all day or a computer all day. Um, but, uh, essentially like it, as you said, the world is so fundamentally different now, um, people don't just go into one company and work the rest of their lives there because, uh, companies, you know, no longer like retain people as long. And people also probably are better off by moving companies every several years, um, both in terms of like their career and just to get a diversity of experiences. Um, so yeah.
Speaker 1 00:12:18 How do they feel about your career now?
Speaker 2 00:12:20 Yeah, I mean, what's the reflection in 2022.
Speaker 3 00:12:24 Yeah. Um, both my grandparents passed away, unfortunately during the pandemic. Um, I'm
Speaker 1 00:12:31 Sorry to hear that.
Speaker 3 00:12:32 Yeah. I, I definitely learned a lot. Um, I think the main radical lesson that I had was making peace with death <laugh>, um, which is a very strange thing, um, to say, but as I mentioned, like my mom passed away at a early age and sort of the contrast and the piece that I was able to get at this time, it was very, very different. Um, and I think that death in some ways, like makes life so much more beautiful. Um, so that's kind of where I'm at right now in terms of sorry for the, for the tears, but yeah,
Speaker 2 00:13:07 No, no,
Speaker 1 00:13:08 No. <laugh> no reason to apologize.
Speaker 2 00:13:11 I was not expecting like, that is an answer. I just wasn't like, I think, um, yeah, I'll just say, yeah, there's some overlap with seventies and eighties, you know, Catholic upbringing, Irish Catholic upbringing, you know? Yeah. Cause grandma was the one who was the second generation, uh, person in my family. Uh, and you know, the deep kind of conservative Catholicism just got passed down and you know, that whole idea that you, everything you do reflects on the family was like instilled in me from for sure the get go. So everything I was, you know, when I came out, my mom was like, what will the family think when I got my first tattoo? What will the family think? You've notated yourself? Like, it's, it's all of these layers of complexity that don't apply to the world that we're in now. Uh, because hopefully the world that we're in now, we've all had that journey of focusing on. What's really important.
Speaker 3 00:14:19 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:20 Tina, I, um, I'm gonna change directions just a little bit. And Tracy, I love it when you do voices. Like it's one of my favorite thing. Um, the
Speaker 2 00:14:30 Kids love it when I do my mother too.
Speaker 1 00:14:32 Yeah. It's, it's really good. It's really good. Um, so Tina, you, you went to, um, you went to Stanford, which is prestigious and hard to get in. Um, and then you worked at snap, which also well known hard to get in. Um, and you've now co-founded a company which again, is like, not that many people do, uh, what, what you're doing. And so, um, it's, it's interesting. You, you, you have done like very extraordinary things in some ways, and it feels like, it feels like that hasn't gone to your head if I'm just like being really straight with you about it just, it just feels like, yeah, I just did the next thing in front of me. Uh, and I think that's really impressive, but I would, I'd love to hear a little bit about how did you know how you got in first to Stanford? Um, you know, like what was it like getting a job at snap and then, um, you and I, and another conversation talked a little bit about your exit from snap. And I found, I found that really interesting. So I would love for you to, to talk a little bit about that as well.
Speaker 3 00:15:41 Yeah. Um, so back when I got into Stanford, like, as you said, Stanford was very prestigious and when I visited the campus, like there was this energy that I, I guess like that things were, were changeable. Like, like everyone was working toward something really awesome. I got to participate in a guest lecture, like a computer science guest lecture with, um, professor Mar Zaha. And it was just like this sense of there's so many smart people that are trying to do good in the world or change the world. And back then it was change the world <laugh>. Um, and, and I wanted to go there and I applied through, um, a needs based scholarship called QuestBridge and was luckily able to match, but to get there, I did have to work my butt off. Um, I definitely was on the track of like checking off academic boxes, um, especially at the high school that I attended.
Speaker 3 00:16:45 Um, it, it was a very standard thing. Like people really optimized their like test scores and things like that. But once I got to Stanford, like my worldview changed so much, just the people I met from all sorts of backgrounds, you know, like some people from abroad. Um, and I really tried to meet as many different types of people as possible and jump out of my core sort of comfort zone, which was sort of people that looked like me, um, and came from similar backgrounds as me to really just everyone. And, um, you know, I was able to kind of break out of this bubble that I was raised in. And, um, every time I would come back home, I would just have radically different ideas and worldviews. It was a very interesting time, um, for my family. And, um, I think that's when I, I, there was a lecture that, um, said computer science is one of those things you can do where with little more than a computer and some in some electricity, you could create something from your mind and then with the power of the internet, you could distribute it across the world.
Speaker 3 00:18:03 And that blew my mind, right? Like you don't have to you, um, and I, I have so much, uh, admiration for people who do like physical work and labor and trade labor, but I, <laugh> definitely not in my skillset so I could code and, um, bring something to life. And I was sold by that. And, um, how I got into Snapchat was through, uh, section leading. So section leading is a undergraduate TA program essentially for the introductory computer science courses. Um, and the founders of Snapchat were originally from Stanford and it was spreading across the campus. Um, and back then it was kind of joked as a sexting app. Um, but <laugh>, I already knew from my friend groups that we were using it for much more fun purposes. Um, so I had to take a quarter off to be closer to home. Snapchat was, uh, located in Los Angeles. I was from, uh, orange county area. So I was, uh, I took an in a quarter off from school, um, to be closer with my family. And during that time I had to get money. I, um, for my family. So I interned at Snapchat, which was such a incredible experience. So we had a team of 35 people, but we were already serving millions of users. Um, and wait, the
Speaker 2 00:19:27 Whole company was 35 or just your team was
Speaker 3 00:19:29 35, 35 people total. That's really fun. Uh <laugh> I was first part of the, yeah. First part of the Android team. And we had a little closet,
Speaker 2 00:19:38 The Android closet
Speaker 3 00:19:40 In the house, like, yeah, yeah. It was <laugh>. It was like three. Yeah. It was like, um, four, four of us like lined up <laugh> in a closet and there was a fridge at the end of the closet. So like people were
Speaker 2 00:19:55 You rewarded After every 20 lines of code. Amazing. You could get a Coke or something. Is that how that worked?
Speaker 3 00:20:04 No, no, it, I, I think like it was such a amazing experience like with, with amazing peers. Um, I think the thing that changed for me and why I switched over to the nonprofit sector was when, um, there is consequences of text. That was my big lesson that I learned at snap where, you know, we were building like, so something that we felt was genuinely fun, like it did connect people. And, um, I think at the scale at which we were building it, as well as, um, how people were adopting it, who was adopting it and like the metrics at the end of the day that the company optimizes for, especially once it goes public or is, is trying to go public are just fundamentally different than, than what you ha initially. Like what I initially hope that like Snapchat would come to embody. I have a lot of respect for the company in, in its inclusive camera nowadays.
Speaker 3 00:21:08 And a lot of the work that it's done, I think at, at the time, like we had just gone public and there were a lot of changes that I personally didn't agree with. Um, and honestly, like, it was, it was, um, sort of like leading to burnout because the hours were very long and with startups like that, that's how it usually is. I, I think, um, but I was a bit disillusioned by the for-profit model, um, and thinking a lot about like capitalism as well as like, uh, that was when president Trump was elected. And I was thinking about like the broader implications, not just of technology, but yes. Of technology like Facebook, um, the polarization of our country and so many different, uh, aspects of, um, of, I guess, like living in our society. And so I looked around and I remember like nonprofits were at the core of my success and I wanted to bring back the works of technology that, and the skills that I've learned in technology to the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 3 00:22:22 And at the time, um, my, so a few of my peers. So mark, our CEO literally was from my freshman dorm. Um, we studied computer science together, stayed up late nights, uh, working on problem sets. He had a similar sort of, um, hope and he brought me on board for his project at the time, which was a very different project. Um, it was a blockchain project for universal basic income. That's awesome. Awesome. But yeah, really, really head up at the clouds though. Um, I, so we had a very hard time, uh, creating value for the, for the coin. So I think it was at a period where we were kind of at the end of that project, I think, um, and we met, uh, expo, which was a startup studio and they were hoping to create a nonprofit wing. Um, and so they hired us on as a team to kind of go and talk to nonprofits about a different, completely different product as well.
Speaker 3 00:23:23 It was a donation tracking, uh, system on blockchain <laugh>. And once we started to talk, talking to nonprofits and interviewing nonprofits and givers, it was clear that that was not what they needed, um, per usual, uh, just creating technology and avoid is not productive. And it was clear to us that what we can help with is bridging the gap between nonprofits and their current state of technology with what we kind of built our skills around, which is like modern tech, um, and our other co-founder Raul. Uh, he worked at Nuna, which is a health startup, uh, working on like Medicaid data. And, um, he had also worked on several other startups before and also kind of similarly going through a, you know, for-profit model, maybe not the best. And we really all wanted to align ourselves with the nonprofit sector for various reason. Mine is a very personal one.
Speaker 3 00:24:23 Um, and mark and Raul, I think it, it was for like Raul had already always been interested in UBI and, and in nonprofits, and same with mark, like they've been, he's been donating to nonprofits for a really long time. So, um, I started talking to them and I had been more of a person who volunteers time rather than donates money, cuz I didn't have money for the longest time. Um, but I was, I was blown away by the amount number of nonprofits that I didn't know and um, how everyone kind of approaches giving in a different way. And uh, we interviewed, you know, donors at the $5 level people who don't give anymore because they don't have the means to all the way to six figure seven figure donors. And I think it made me want to go into the nonprofit sector because that's where the helpers are and I wanted to help the helpers. So we created a nonprofit for nonprofits and our whole mission is to create an accessible giving infrastructure to help every person and organization use technology for good, because we believe that technology is an amplifier and we wanted to amplify generosity hope and good. Um, so that's kind of how I ended up at every dot a,
Speaker 1 00:25:44 Uh, that's amazing. And um, yeah, I, I love, I, I like there's lots there, but I love that you were in a closet on the Android team <laugh> so does that and routine the sodas at the end. Like I don't know why, but that always just captures my imagination, the origin stories of, of those kinds of things. Um, it's interest. It's interesting. And I wanna just touch on this because Tracy and I talk a lot about tech for good. And I think that we, we don't often talk about tech for gain and I don't wanna say tech for bad cuz I, you know, I'm an economist and I think that like I understand the core inputs of profitability, but it is tech for gain and it feels so much easier in some ways like, like when, when people can feel like what they get out of it, it's just so much easier to create products that they want to use.
Speaker 1 00:26:41 And I, and I think when you look at snap, um, uh, it it's one of those places where people didn't know how to stop using it in a way. Right. And I think that that's, it's, it's I guess maybe just philosophically interesting that it's easier to create tech for game and tech for good, absolutely. Tim. Um, and, and, and I, I don't know, I, I feel like I rediscover this like every other year or so, because I've, I've always thinking about tech for good. Um, and it does feel like it's so hard to use. And I think I forget, like I, I often go to, you know, there's, uh, there's left pro professional development. There's, you know, less digital literacy and all of that, but I think also the core inputs is just har it's harder to want to use in some ways. Yeah. Um, so I'm, I'm curious if you found that when you were building it.
Speaker 3 00:27:39 Yeah. I think one thing is that people like something like Snapchat, it takes a lot more people than you might imagine as like a teenager to build it and support it and create something that is easy to use, you know, quote unquote. Um, and I think that tech is cheap on one end, which is like servers costs are lower than ever building. It is the often the, like the tough part and, and building it to a point where it meets people's expectations. Um, and for us kind of every.org came out of something that we also personally wanted in the world. Um, so there's a few aspects of every.org. We have fundraising products for nonprofits, which is what we focus on a lot, but we started off by building every dot org's giving platform. So if you go to on every.org and then sign up as a donor, you can support over 1.5 million registered public charities in one place, get one donation receipt, um, donate with anything from PayPal, Venmo stocks, apple pay, Google pay to cryptocurrency.
Speaker 3 00:29:00 Um, and we wanted to bridge sort of the expectations of the digital generation for an app. Like there is nothing there, there wasn't that many, um, applications that allowed people to give super easily in the same sort of manner that you would come to expect, like having used applications like Snapchat or cash app or Venmo. Um, so we wanted to create something that was familiar to this digital generation so that we removed a lot of those technical barriers to giving. Um, and then I think you are completely right in, in that it is easier to grow a for profit model, um, because it scales with, with the product. And, you know, there's a lot of products that are geared toward nonprofits that they have to pay a lot of money for. Um, and for every single payment method that comes out, they have to figure out how to implement this new one.
Speaker 3 00:30:05 Like, you need a PayPal button, you need a crypto donate button, you need a stock donate button. And we were like, this should not be nonprofits are literally the ones that are solving society's biggest problems. Why isn't the baseline, you know, higher. And, and oftentimes it is because of like the gaps of building technology, luckily all of our co-founders come from a technology background. So, um, we were able to kind of bridge both of the technical aspects and then looking into the operations, like how do we automate as much of this as possible for nonprofits so that they can focus on their mission. And one of the aspects is say like for cryptocurrency right now, uh, the regulations require nonprofits. They file all these IRS forms that were frankly not made fired. So it's a form 80 to 82.
Speaker 2 00:31:02 My CPA was like, do you have cryptocurrency? I'm like, well, according to the blockchain, I have cryptocurrency. And he was like, but what's the value of it? And I'm like, that's a really interesting question.
Speaker 3 00:31:16 Yeah. Yeah. And, and for the nonprofits, they have to file these forms and yep. Uh, take on legal and regulatory burdens. And so we were like, oh, we are a nonprofit. We could actually be the intermediary for a nonprofit. So they can just accept the cash grant that originates from cryptocurrency. But similar to donor advised funds, every daughter gives the recipient. So we can just handle all of the compliance aspects and then send them cash. Like that is, that should be the baseline, right? Like a nonprofit shouldn't have to figure out all of the new technologies. Like I have nonprofits asking me some of the deepest questions for crypto and I'm like, are you, are you a crypto enthusiast? Sometimes? They're like, no. And I'm like, you don't have to understand all, like, you don't have to understand like proof of work in order to accept cryptocurrency support from your donors.
Speaker 3 00:32:13 Um, and I think, I think it's because of this standard that we've created in the sector that like nonprofits don't have similar access that for profits often do I think because of the price and frankly, some of the nonprofit software is more expensive. I think things are changing now. And, um, a lot of software is at on a tip basis or, or as a percentage basis off of actual transactions that are done, which I think is <laugh> a lot better than like paying a $10,000 fee up front and, and not knowing whether it'll serve your mission. Um, and then just like sun cost fallacy because there's a lot of tech that they implement and then they don't want to move off of. So we wanted to create every.org, something that could exist alongside, and then they can adopt components if they need to. So if they're missing a crypto button, you can use the, every.org crypto button it's completely free. We don't take any fees. And it it's just like the conversion fee on the conversion to cash. If you need a stock donate button, then you can take that. If you need an all in one donate button, we also have that. Um, so I, for us, it was how do we make tech serve the nonprofits, not just fix one technical problem that a nonprofit has and how do we make tech accessible at the
Speaker 2 00:33:42 End of the day? They are so preaching to the choir. I have like this bullet point. Yeah. Yeah. It's amazing. Like, keep going, say it again. I'm I'm just the whole podcast. I'm second gonna nod. Yep. There's vigorous, vigorous nod, vigorous nod. <laugh> um, you, well, I mean, okay, so I wanna unpick about three or four things. Uh, one is mm-hmm <affirmative> you have, and I do think it's important for folks to understand that every.org is a nonprofit and that model of meeting what we call the impact economy, but is that loose amalgamation of nonprofits and organizations of various statuses and configurations coming together that change the world. The more that entities understand how to meet the impact economy, where it's at and being a nonprofit, serving those entities is one of those ways, the more value, whatever it is you're bringing will actually bring to the ecosystem.
Speaker 2 00:34:51 And that is something that has played itself out in a very different way in my own life and career where things that once were nonprofits are now no longer and, and so on and so forth. But that core premise of serving the impact economy with software requires meeting it, where it's at is exactly what you're on about. And I think it's just worth stating that really clearly for folks to understand that this is how you have as many users of every.org as you have. Um, and that doesn't mean that you don't have a revenue model. That doesn't mean you don't have goals. What that means is you are shaping your actions rather than looking at who you are and saying, this is how we're gonna shape the impact economy. Uh, and I think that's an incredibly important distinction. Uh, you talked about tech ethics. This is a commercial for something I'm reading that I haven't finished, but I'm reading this book called, uh, technology is not neutral by a woman named Stephanie Hare and long.
Speaker 2 00:36:03 There's a many, many, many, many solid points in here. I'm sure people have reviewed it before, because I think it's not a new book. It's new to me. No, it did. It did. It came out in 2022. Sometimes I'm old enough to be like the internet, you know? Yeah. It sounds well, I mean, look that fucking, like I said, old enough to be sometimes like, you know, the internet, they got that on computers now. Um, you know, so I, one of the many points that she makes is there is no Hippocratic oath for technology. There just, there, there is no basic premise of do no harm. And therefore, you know, we only see technology litmus tested when events and circumstances are at their most extreme, you know, uh, the war on Ukraine is a great example. How many tech firms, how quickly were like, well, we are dropping the mic on our work with Russia.
Speaker 2 00:37:02 Now there are a bunch that never did business over there. And then there are a bunch who did, and you know, the ones who were, were like, we're, we're getting out, we're getting out right now. We've clearly found a limit and we're done, but it won't undo everything that was done up until that point. But the question I actually have for you is you are talking about values based business leadership and values based business approach. And can you talk more about what that means as a CEO to orient your business along the lines of values and not just the usual growth metrics, which are usually leads, ACV, next quarters goals, et cetera, or as a CEO or as a CEO, I keep giving you promotions. I'm like, you know, her Royal Highness. Um,
Speaker 3 00:38:07 Thanks, Tracy. You know,
Speaker 2 00:38:08 <laugh>, I think I can get the queen on my mobile phone. We can get you United right now, you know, whatever, there we go. Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 3 00:38:17 Um, yeah, I think that is exactly where I was at after Snapchat, where I wanted the next thing I do, I wanted make, make sure that I am approaching it more intentionally. And luckily both mark and Raoul were on board. So one of the first things that we did was craft our values and we've iterated on our values with our team. And this is, this is something that we pull from everyone that we hear from, we, we get feedback from people that we serve, the nonprofits, the givers. Um, and so we have our basic values and they are to build impactful products with excellent technology. So for us we're technologists, and we understand that and we want to build excellent tech, um, and bring that to the nonprofit sector. Uh, the a is for advanced communal wisdom and learn from experts because we are technologists.
Speaker 3 00:39:08 We know that we are not the end all be all experts of the nonprofit sector. And we also have learned that there are so many different types of experts like experts within each cause. And so for us, like how do we advance communal wisdom? Like how do we spread this information to, um, givers and give them the tools to be more intentional about their giving, um, and allow nonprofits to communicate more easily and for experts to bring in their voices third is to support each other and honor our commitments. So this, this makes sense, like, and this is the one that we pull up often is just like, what do we commit to? And once we commit to, we have to follow through because we committed to it. So, um, that, and really being high EQ as a team and supporting each other, um, and then for inspire more hope, generosity and good.
Speaker 3 00:40:01 And that's from like, what do we build? Why do we do what we do? And then last but not least create connection, justice, respect for all. Um, and I think this is the hardest value sometimes to live up to, but it is, it is something that we try to bring to everything that we do. So when we, when we are building products like on our notion, or we use notion, but we, uh, on our template, when we build out product and do product planning, we pull in our values, like, does this meet our values? Um, is, does this fit like why we are doing what we are doing? Um, and I think that values based planning for any business, like, not just non-S, but, and, and oftentimes nonprofits, you know, they have their mission and their vision guiding them, um, for, for profits too. And for B Corps.
Speaker 3 00:40:53 And there's so many, as he said, so many different structures that you can structure to work on the impact economy, right? And so you, you, if you lead with your values, even the things that are not concretely measurable, that it is something that you could work toward and your team could always bring up your values. And if you make it a practice to, to weave that into your daily work, your team could say, Hey, that doesn't fit into our values. Or, Hey, I think this might be a better approach. Then I think that the outcomes will have more of the soul, I guess, of, of what you want to do and achieve in the world.
Speaker 2 00:41:33 Do. And I think you already answered this. Um, do you consider your values iterative? So is there a value in there for when we think these aren't serving us, how do we change them and pivot?
Speaker 3 00:41:52 Yeah. Um, in terms of like change our values. Yeah. Um, we haven't changed them for a while now. Um, but this is our second iteration of, of our values. Uh, we had more internally team oriented values, um, but these values are more, both like externally facing as well as internally facing. So we publish them on every.org about page. Um, and of course, you know, if there are different things, uh, that we want to welcome into our values, like we'll definitely reconsider. I don't think anything should be so rock solid that it is forever imutable, but I, we crafted them to be broad enough for it to invite, you know, different interpretations. And we have an internal page where we bring in, what does this mean to each individual team member, um, and example concrete examples of, uh, things that we've achieved in the past or decisions that we've made in the past that we felt were really aligned with our values, um, or not aligned <laugh>, uh, so that we could course correct. Um, and I, I, I think like values should be fairly, uh, static, but, um, I wouldn't go as far to say, like, never change our values. Like always
Speaker 2 00:43:12 Seven. I, I have one more follow up and then I wanna turn it back to Tim who I know is like just itching to ask all sorts of interesting stuff about crypto and other things. Um, I'm gonna frame it this way. Here's a sound bite you can use against me when I'm running for Congress someday. Uh <laugh> hold on. Inclusion sucks. Inclusion sucks because it's so hard. Right. And what it means is it's challenging our assumptions around who we are, as much as it is, who we are when we are in groups with other people and engage with them according. And that is mm-hmm, <affirmative> one of the hardest and most humbling. And frankly, sometimes even for folks, shame filled and embarrassing journeys, because if you think about the mindset of it, right, it's, you know, we are locked in and, and right. And not only are we right, we're super smart about being right.
Speaker 2 00:44:17 And we're righteous about how super smart we are. And, and that does not create a culture of inclusion. So when you bring that to an industry, it sucks. It sucks because you're like, well, maybe I'm not right. And what does that say about me? And the, the immediate response is a deeply personal one. And what I like, what you just did was you just unpacked it in a way that is super gentle and super approachable and saying, this is an invitation for dialogue, and this is an invitation for your participation. And this is an invitation for building something that is greater than the sum of its parts. Um, I was deeply touched when you were talking about that and because I'm a pop culture nerd, I'm going to take it way out and pull it back in again, before I give it back to Tim. And that is, you know, I have worked for companies that have had, you know, quote unquote values, uh, and those values are actually rooted in things that make sometimes the tech world toxic, like, you know, grit. And you're like, well, great. What does that mean? That means I'm working a 97 hour week is what grit means, you know, or, you know, that sort of thing. And the way those values are encapsulated, it's like, they're chiseled in stone. They're never what's that? Yeah. Like
Speaker 3 00:45:45 Move back.
Speaker 2 00:45:45 Oh yeah. Move fast and break things. I did that in store and set me back six
Speaker 3 00:45:49 Grand break, everything,
Speaker 2 00:45:50 You know, like <laugh>, you know, <laugh>, it's like, yes. And they're all chiseled in stone. So it's like the Mandalorian it's like, no matter what you do, as someone who's trying to change things you're told, this is the way, right. There's my pop culture moment for the day mm-hmm <affirmative>, um, and love that. I think it was awesome. The other thing that I'm really hearing, and what you're saying is that as much as the industries we serve are mission driven, supported by values. We know we know the global impact economy and we know those missions change. We know that the targets change because people and the world changes and you've left space for that. And I just wanted to say, thank you. Like that is a really special thing yeah. To hear about.
Speaker 3 00:46:45 Yeah. And I think you touched on so many of those pain points that, you know, tech feels like, oh, this is like fixed. Or like, this is, this is how things should be. Um, and I do feel like moving to the nonprofit sector, I've learned so much about myself because you can't, you do require a lot of vulnerability and self development to not to be inclusive. Like, I, I do think it is a challenge. And I think once I let go of the, I, I don't know if you have this, but like, I, I had a, I had a belief that I have to do things perfectly, and I have a little bit of perfectionism. Um, and you gotta let go of that because, you know, you're not gonna be perfect, but as long as you're constantly learning, and this is something that we try to capture in our values is just keep learning from experts and, and value communal wisdom, because you're not gonna be perfect. And you're not gonna know everything about everyone, but you do bring some knowledge to the table too. So, so make sure you share that and support the, the communities that we serve. Um, so I, I just wanted to thank you for, for calling that out and how, how difficult inclusivity is. Um, but I think that the more people rise up to the challenge, I think it will be just collectively
Speaker 2 00:48:06 When Fox news excerpts this though, just make sure you stop it after inclusion sucks. Right. So it can be like, Tracy Kron says inclusion sucks. Exactly. Um, you know, <laugh> inclusion Fox. Yeah. No, it, it is. And it's, it's a journey. It's not a destination, it's a journey. And I love that.
Speaker 1 00:48:25 So Tina, I, I also appreciate your values a lot. And, um, well, I also just wanna say, I'm always impressed with people that have a shot at perfectionism. Like, like for me, it was never even in the cards, I was like, yeah, I don't like, and, and so I've just never struggled with that one. Like, it's just like, okay, I can't be. Um, but I, I really love what you are saying about collective wisdom because I do, I think that there is such a missed opportunity in our individual in individualistic culture to see shared insight as something that's attainable and valuable. People are so quick to put insight into their own backpack, claim it, stamp IP on it and make sure nobody else ever gets it. And I just think that, um, yeah, we could do, we could do with a lot of,
Speaker 2 00:49:21 As a late 40 something. It never makes me prouder to just be like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'm willing to learn. Please teach me, you know?
Speaker 1 00:49:31 Yeah. Yep. Um, I, I noticed that you said the word imutable a while ago, so these values are not imutable, but speaking of things that are imutable, uh, I think that it's
Speaker 2 00:49:45 Interesting. Do you see that like move? Yeah. You see how I, oh yeah, that was I ever heard in my life, cuz I think I know where you're going.
Speaker 1 00:49:55 I know, but then you messed it up cuz now we're talking about it. Unbelievable. All right. So with that smooth pivot in mind, uh, a couple weeks ago, um, no, it was just last week. I was, um, speaking to the Montana non-profit association, um, uh, a group there about, um, a crypto and they're just like asking, Hey, you know, should we do this? Is it, is it important? And so, um, I started researching for that, you know, to make sure that I knew answer to the questions and no matter where I went there, you were like, it was, it was amazing. Like, you know, um, a lot on, you know, tech soup, there was stuff on 10, I think there was stuff on the, uh, national council of nonprofits and it's, it was first of all, thank you. You made me look really good. I did credit you with all of that.
Speaker 1 00:50:50 And um, and then secondly, and, and I would say this just blanket, I'm saying this a lot nowadays, which is, if you don't know about crypto, then it doesn't matter. Go get an every.org account and put the button on your site and you will not have to do anything because if you get any money, it will all be in us dollars. And so all this question about, you know, what's the future, it doesn't matter because you are getting dollars and people are donating that, that in whatever crypto and you are just taking it home in dollars. And, um, and I just think, first of all, that is amazing to be able to say, and there is so much work that had to go into creating a product that would just do that and be able to say it that simply to a, to a, a group and to keep broadcasting that. So, um, well done. And then also like how do you write so much? Like, it's amazing. I I'm so impressed with that. Do you feel like, just honestly, is that like a core gift of yours is just writing? Is that, is that easy for you?
Speaker 3 00:52:00 Yeah, I, I like writing, um, especially when I have time. So one, one of the things that, you know, I am working on is like public speaking, but writing is definitely an easier skill for me.
Speaker 1 00:52:13 I've got mad, mad respect for that. I, anybody that can just write quickly and be I've had to
Speaker 2 00:52:21 Co-author things with Tim before and it's definitely <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:52:26 Oh, do not even start. It's definitely an experience. Start on that. I'll start talking about you trying to share something on Riverside. If
Speaker 2 00:52:35 We go, the technology failed me.
Speaker 1 00:52:38 There we go. Uh, yeah. Uhhuh. Okay. Um, my question though, to you, Tina, is, do you believe in crypto?
Speaker 3 00:52:49 Yes, I, I personally do. And then also I thank you so much for sharing about every.org to the broader community. And, um, I think, I think one, one thing is that crypto is here to stay in some form. Um, I think we don't know necessarily which coins will make it at, at the end of like 10 years or so, but, um, you know, crypto has been around and the technology is awesome. So I, I, I definitely think like a crypto is gonna be here to stay and, uh, president Biden's recent executive notice, like basically said, you know, regulators are going to be looking at it, but nothing that says like we're gonna delete crypto from EV ever existing on in the us or something. So I, I think people, um, I, I think we're still figuring out things like regulations. Uh, and luckily, you know, the IRS has some clear guidelines of crypto for nonprofits purposes.
Speaker 3 00:53:55 So, um, every.org itself keeps an eye out on those regulations for nonprofits. I don't think all of us have to all be tuned in, into what, what is happening in the crypto news every single day. Um, and we're happy to do that. And our accountants are up to date and our, our lawyers are up to date on crypto. So I think, you know, like sharing that knowledge as much as possible. I, uh, whether it's through blog posts or through webinars, um, is one of our missions to just trying to make it not scary for nonprofits. Um, because it is a tool that is now available for nonprofits and it is doing a lot of good, like I last year alone over $1 billion has been donated because of the Ethereum founder and each year, like other than him, there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are being donated in crypto for Ukraine, like hundreds of millions dollars, I think.
Speaker 3 00:54:53 Um, and I think that so on every dollar itself, like so far since launching the crypto product in, um, 20, 21, we it's become our most popular donation method on the site more than credit cards and more than bank accounts. Um, it is right now accounting for 42% of our donations <laugh> yeah, because especially because there are some larger donations, um, there aren't a lot of platforms that crypto donors can, can turn to, to support any of the 1.5 million public charities. So, um, they often go to every.org and find their favorite charity and, and donate there. Um, and that's over $7 million. Um, so I think there is enormous potential in crypto, especially of because of how tax advantage that is. And this is also something that nonprofits are educating and need to educate donors on is that, you know, they might be able to donate more in crypto than if they were Don able to donate in cash because they don't have to recognize capital gains hacks.
Speaker 3 00:56:01 They can deduct possibly up to the full fair market value. Um, so if they were to sell it first and then donate the proceeds, it's gonna be way less. Um, so I think that that's, that's one piece that is a useful tool for nonprofits and a lot of crypto donors are more charitable. And so I see a lot of crypto groups, NFT groups that donate a portion of their proceeds to charity, and many of them do so through every.org. And I think that is really awesome to see. And maybe it is because the groups that are attracted to crypto tend to be, um, kind of wanting to change the world in some way. Uh, so maybe that's, that's why they, they tend to give more. And I hope that
Speaker 1 00:56:47 Also some kind of foundation that they've got set up that is got set up that is, um, of coins. And so those over time have become real, especially the Ethereum and UNAP are like really enormous. And so, um, by the way, I love, um, by the way I on there, I just think that is very, very funny for yeah. Um, distributed
Speaker 2 00:57:16 Autonomous
Speaker 1 00:57:17 Organization. Thank you. Yeah. Um, and I think the, the other point that I was making to the group that I was talking about with crypto is that the, the thing to understand is that, um, the, the big win here is not crypto. The big win here is the donors who want people to, who want to be able to give in a currency that is very meaningful to them. And I think it's really easy to miss, like these are, these are people who, who have been doing this for a while. A lot of them, it is a weird side pot community, a visionary people, and in their world, they see what is coming in terms of blockchain as the most powerful technology that we will experience probably in our lifetimes and, and people are asleep to it. And thinking that it's about, you know, doge coin.
Speaker 1 00:58:14 And I, I think that if, if nonprofits, um, if nonprofits learned a little bit or even brought in a, you know, a major donor crypto major crypto donor officer that went out and nurtured relationships for people to give in their preferred crypto, there would be an, a, a huge advantage right now because you know, some nonprofits are accepting crypto. A lot of them are accepting them through you, but not enough of them are actually saying these, these donors out here are generous. People who don't know what to do with their coins, except they don't want to convert 'em to dollars in that. Like, that's the one thing that's true of all of them. Well,
Speaker 2 00:58:58 Tim taking it all the way back to an earlier part of the discussion, I think you just hit the nail on the head and that is you're meeting these folks where they're at. And yeah, I mean, I am, I have likened the process of even going through all the hoops necessary to sort of min an NFT. Why not? Because I think I'm gonna be a millionaire tomorrow, but because I wanna know the process, I wanna know the mechanics of it. I want to know what are the ups and downs of it. Uh, you know, I've likened that to plugging a 300 Bo modem into my apple, two E and you know, signing onto a text based kind of chat forum and all the steps needed to do that is the modem on, is the computer have the right software loaded? Is my disc drive working? You know,
Speaker 1 00:59:54 You're talking about setting up your yeah.
Speaker 2 00:59:55 Cold wall. I have it, I call it my bank dongle, but yeah. So cold wallet. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna wear it around my neck, like in a, you know, Don accessory. I really love that name, but I, I think the biggest point here that you're both making very eloquently by the way is think beyond money. And I had my first aha moment of that when I realized, wait a minute, I don't, I have some money in Ethereum. I, I don't need to convert it to make it actionable in Ukraine right now. You know, you think about the loss that that would take in an ordinary cash conversion of whatever percentage we're talking about. That doesn't exist. This is global. That was my first aha moment. And then everything beyond that in terms of, oh, we're just using it for money right now. And when I finally hit that moment, I was like walking my dog at eight 30 at night, possibly having ALO cigarette. And I was like, okay, this is way too deep. I need to go to bed. But you know, yeah. It's one of my little, you
Speaker 1 01:01:06 Say close cigarette. Mm-hmm
Speaker 2 01:01:08 <affirmative> yeah. I just, it's one of my little,
Speaker 1 01:01:09 This
Speaker 2 01:01:10 Since forever, really?
Speaker 1 01:01:11 Since when,
Speaker 2 01:01:12 Really
Speaker 1 01:01:13 Like really? Huh. Oh, well that makes sense. Cuz
Speaker 2 01:01:17 Of glove cigarettes, Doka cigars pipes. I can't do anything normal. I can't do anything normal. It's gotta be, you know. Yeah, right. Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 1 01:01:27 I'm sorry I was
Speaker 2 01:01:28 Having this, this
Speaker 1 01:01:28 Revel, this
Speaker 2 01:01:29 Revolution. I was like
Speaker 1 01:01:31 Smoke.
Speaker 2 01:01:32 You know, when you look beyond money, when you look beyond cash and you look towards enabling agency and, and giving people means by which to enable agency quickly, that's just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to what's being enabled with cryptocurrency for the impact economy.
Speaker 1 01:01:59 Um, thank you, Tracy. Tina, thank you so much for talking with us. I have one last question. Um, which, which is that if, if one is playing settlers of QAN and you are not going for an eight or six, which, which number do you think is the, the best number to go? If it's not six or, or, or eight?
Speaker 2 01:02:27 What is this? Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:02:29 Oh my gosh. Yeah. Huh. I, I
Speaker 2 01:02:32 Go for four and 11, 10.
Speaker 1 01:02:35 Interesting.
Speaker 3 01:02:37 I to rolled a lot of tens. Yeah,
Speaker 2 01:02:40 No, I missed that. Oh, you missed that.
Speaker 1 01:02:42 Yeah. You missed
Speaker 3 01:02:43 That. Let, yeah, we were just talking about it before this,
Speaker 2 01:02:45 Not just CTAN but CTAN sea FARs. And then I just bought CTAN star fairs and I realized, oh, the game mechanics are totally different. I gotta relearn this one from the start. Oh, mind blowing. I loved seafarers. It was
Speaker 3 01:03:04 Seas
Speaker 2 01:03:05 Made the
Speaker 3 01:03:05 Whole game. Tried that
Speaker 2 01:03:06 The idea of putting boats out was like, oh yeah. Now I got longest road with boats. Oh yeah. You know,
Speaker 1 01:03:16 But did you have settlers of Canan? Cause in my Bible, believing household, I think we ended up with the
Speaker 2 01:03:21 Settlers. That was the move that you're, I don't think you still have
Speaker 1 01:03:24 It, but that was,
Speaker 2 01:03:26 That was the move that your dad pulled
Speaker 1 01:03:27 On you. It was interesting.
Speaker 2 01:03:30 He brought down the sort of Canan no,
Speaker 1 01:03:32 No, no. That's no settlers. Oh yeah. Okay. Well, there you go. Um, thank you, Tina so much for the work that you're doing. Um, you and, and the co-founders, it is exceptionally, um, good software for nonprofits to use and, um, we're really grateful for what you've done in the community. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you. Thank for, thank you for all that. You've written, that's out there for us to copy and look smart with, um, and really thanks, uh, for joining us. And we're excited to see what's next for you.
Speaker 3 01:04:10 Yeah. Thank you so much, Tim and Tracy for having me, um, it, we, it was so fun. Just talking about so many different types of things. I hope it was somewhat helpful to the nonprofits and professionals listening in. Um, but yeah, like if anyone wants to reach us, um, you could reach
[email protected] for questions, um, our website, every.org/nonprofits for all of the free tools that we have for nonprofits. And, uh, if you're interested in crypto, every.org/crypto has a lot of resources that explains what it, what it, uh, entails whether or not you use every.org. It is just, uh, a resource that you can, um, rely on
Speaker 1 01:04:53 Crypto FA blog posts have become like, like something that I just send people like, yeah. That's a great question. You should check out the FAQs over on every.org. So yeah, really well done.
Speaker 3 01:05:06 Yeah. Yeah. We're trying to build it out socially. That's that's whole environmental concern, which we haven't touched on. There's that on that
Speaker 1 01:05:14 That's a whole other podcast.
Speaker 3 01:05:17 Yeah. As well as operational things like your gift acceptance policy. And then we link out to a bunch of examples
Speaker 1 01:05:24 Too. You all right. Well, thank you so much. Yeah.
Speaker 3 01:05:29 Thank you so much.
Speaker 0 01:05:31 Yay.
Speaker 2 01:05:33 This is Tracy Kack
Speaker 1 01:05:34 And I'm Tim Lockey,
Speaker 2 01:05:36 And you've been listening to why it matters an independent production that captures our passions, personalities, and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy.
Speaker 1 01:05:47 All of that's important, but even more important. We are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning.
Speaker 2 01:05:56 We are so grateful that you've been listening to us. We have no idea why you'd wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you're stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system, or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say.
Speaker 1 01:06:11 Whatever the reason, whether it's a bet or you're a believer, would you hit subscribe, or if you've already done that, would you mind leaving us a review? And if you're really brave or wanna pu punish someone, please recommend this podcast to your friends, enemies, and family,
Speaker 2 01:06:26 And all kidding aside. Thanks for tuning in. And we are so glad that you're here.
