Episode Transcript
Speaker 2 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. Uh, hopefully you're listening to this in the new year, in January, 2022. So hopefully everything went well for what needed to go well in the past month for you and yours as always, I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zac director of innovation here at now. It matters and why it matters. Okay.
Speaker 3 00:00:33 And I'm Tim Lockie, uh, happy new year, glad that you could join us. And we are excited to kick this year off, uh, with one of our most exciting guests Makita or we're so glad that you could join us today. Um, thanks for making the time. We would love to have you introduce yourself, um, to, to our audience.
Speaker 0 00:00:55 Well, first off Tim and Tracy, thank you for having me. Uh, I'm very excited about today's conversation. Uh, so happy new year, everyone. My name is Mikita Warren Keegan, and among other things I am president of the board of directors of amplify. And we will be talking more about what amplify is shortly I'm. Sure. But again, thank you so much for having me today.
Speaker 2 00:01:16 Totally. I'm just going to throw this in right now because I think it's super cool. Makita also has a PhD in public policy and I have a master's and I looked at the PhD program in public policy and I was like, oh, I don't, I don't, I can't. But you went, you went all the way. And I just I've always thought that was super cool. Uh, because it was really, it's a lot of work for folks who have not looked at that course of study. It's a lot of work and a lot of policy analysis, and I just think that's awesome. So there got that out of the way.
Speaker 0 00:01:51 Well, Tracy, thank you so much. And, uh, it was a credential that was, uh, not so easy to earn, but uh, definitely, uh, very grateful that I had the opportunity even to go for it and to complete it. I know a lot of folks don't so, uh, and I, I didn't do it when I was younger. I, I did it while I was in a full-time working professional and it took me quite a bit to do it, but thanks to tremendous support from my family, my friends, and of course, all of my dissertation advisors and the good folks at Northeastern university in Boston, I was able to complete my degree and get out there on the policy stuff. So,
Speaker 3 00:02:30 So it's funny because the first time I'm I met you in person Makita, which was just a couple of months ago, um, we got to have a coffee together in San Francisco and Tracy was there as well. And I had this moment where I realized what it's like when Tracy sees me around another economist and I get to go home. And I just, I, it was so fun to watch Tracy have that another policy person and start using words and ideas I have no idea about. And, uh, and so yeah, it, it is, uh, it's really refreshing to see that. And, uh, I know that that's a, that's definitely a thing and really excited that you both share that. So
Speaker 0 00:03:13 Tracy, I'm looking forward to extending that conversation,
Speaker 2 00:03:17 But not this recording. Otherwise we're going to jump right into that. It's just going to be that. But for our listeners, that conversation started with like democratic party organizing and ran the gamut from like that to right-wing messaging, to Olympia snow, to George Mitchell, to like all these people and things that we had kind of in common from the Northeast as well. So that was pretty funny
Speaker 3 00:03:40 Ranged in a matter of minutes, it
Speaker 2 00:03:42 Was like, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Speaker 0 00:03:46 Yeah, but we should remind the listeners that they have not stumbled upon a keto Institute slash Brookings Institute podcast. This is not what this is, but a little bit, because I can
Speaker 2 00:03:59 Turn this.
Speaker 3 00:04:04 I want to turn the ship I, for you to tell our audience, uh, who may not know what is amplify and, uh, we'd love to hear your history with amplify.
Speaker 0 00:04:15 Absolutely. Tim. So amplify is a 5 0 1 C3 nonprofit organization. We got our start in actually 2013 as girl force and our founders, uh, specifically focused on, uh, boosting women in tag and femme identifying folks as intact. Um, later on, uh, a few years later, uh, the girl force turned into amplify and expanded, uh, their mission to dedicate themselves to empowering many underrepresented voices in tech to advance their careers and to become fearless leaders. Uh, so we sent her around that work in three key areas or actions. Uh, we, we educate through upskilling programs, uh, and, um, we host resources and events for, uh, our target population and allies, or we prefer say accomplices and talk a little bit about that. Later we build community virtually in person, uh, amplify was born digital, but, uh, before COVID, we had actually started getting a lot of local, uh, local groups together in different parts of the U S and in London. Uh, now that COVID seems to be, hopefully at the time of this recording is, is, is, is receding a bit where we can cross our fingers and toes. Uh, we can start having those in-person meetings again in 22 and 23. Uh, and then, uh, we do amplify representation and we make sure that our members see themselves reflected in as many areas of technology as possible. So, so that's, that's kind of us, in a nutshell,
Speaker 2 00:05:48 I am so excited to hear about where, why and where amplify is going, where it's going so full. I was on the board in the pivot years between the girl force and amplify years. And our primary goal was getting amplified as established as an organization that was independent of its roots, because that was super important to us. We kind of always knew there was sort of a bigger direction. Uh, and I think I was on that board for about three and a half ish years during that transition time. And it was just so apparent, you know, a lot of us folks who were involved with its creation, it was so parent that it needed to grow beyond where it was, but like all of us were sort of like, we got it to where it is, baby, you know, we're, it's just sort of like one by one where like this year might be my final year.
Speaker 2 00:06:46 Okay. And, and that was fine. Like organizations do that, like the life cycle of nonprofits, they do that. Um, and what I really want to say is like, where this is going next fills so many gaps in our industry in terms of, you know, where we started from, which was just, can we collect people around up-skilling, but where we need to go is how do we look at the totality of where a person lands in technology and create a space that is perennially renewing a solid landing zone for them. And I, yeah. Like, you know, for our audience, tell us more about what that looks like now.
Speaker 0 00:07:30 Absolutely. Well, first off, you know, I just want to say that you can't build any kind of sturdy house without a fantastic foundation. So Tracy, again, thank you for your pivotal work at amplify and basically enabling us to be where we are right now, which is that a kind of a crucial turning point. Um, so where what's next for amplify? Well, for years, uh, we have been about awareness and equity in tech. Uh, you know, for many years, a lot of folks were not even aware of some of the issues that underrepresented voices in this community, uh, had to face, uh, whether it came to hiring promotion, uh, you know, and all the things in between, uh, even starting our own businesses and just being leaders in tech. So many barriers to that. So a lot of our early work had to do with a lot of education around that piece.
Speaker 0 00:08:27 But now, you know, as, as a lot of folks who are listening in to the U S and really across the world may be familiar with it's, it's been, uh, a pivotal, uh, 24 months. Uh, there has been an awakening and a reckoning, uh, about, uh, what underrepresented voices, uh, are facing up against, uh, in their professional lives and in other areas. So at amplify, we want to make sure that we're pivoting from awareness to action, and we've really focused in, on the leadership piece of our mission. And over the next, uh, in 2022 and 2023, we're going to be launching some very specific programming around that for our community. But, you know, as I tell folks it's an equation, right? So you can upskill all the folks you want. You can equip all the underrepresented folks that you need to about how to, how to grow, how to thrive, how to succeed in tech, but if you're not working with the companies or the organizations, and that there'll be a part of, then you're only doing half the work, right. So part of what amplified does and will continue to do is to work with those organizations to, to help them, uh, make sure that their environments and their spaces are places where underrepresented voices can grow and thrive and contribute, uh, to, to, to their organizations. Most importantly. So, so, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:10:04 Yeah. As you've, uh, as you started to make that pivot, um, from just awareness to action, um, can I just start at like the most basic level? What are some of the easy, what are some of the, I don't know if they're easy, but what are some of those early actions that you can take? Like what counts let's come action. Um, and I know that the re the context for this is that I hear the word action a lot as an ally, and it's always joined with performative. And if I have a fear as an ally, is that I'm performative and don't know it, which I basically actually just to see my aunt most of the time, but I am really curious what are, what, what constitutes an action, um, that, that will make a difference.
Speaker 0 00:10:51 What's the, okay, let's get into it. Uh, I'm glad you asked that too. So here, here's the deal, and I'm glad you brought up about, uh, you know, the issue between like actual performative, like, look, we're doing something instead of focused action. So I think generally you want to have a focused action and you need to understand, you know, what you're trying to accomplish. If you're in an organization that's, you know, less than 50 employees or even, you know, thousands of employees, this is the absolute first step. What you don't want to do is say, oh, uh, I need to get more, uh, LGBTQ or people of color in here, women. Uh, cause I need to get my ratios, right? Like that's, that's not what we're talking about. That is, that is the essence of being performed
Speaker 2 00:11:39 And I've lived, I love that voice and I have, well, okay. My dog just knocked over A performance. My dog just knocked over at me. Hold on one second. I'm so glad we got that on the podcast. I know.
Speaker 0 00:11:57 Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:11:59 Usually she's a little more grateful than that. All right. Are you happy, girl? You great? Yeah, we all good? We're all good. All right.
Speaker 0 00:12:07 She's just excited because she's like, I can, I can knock that over again.
Speaker 2 00:12:13 Oh no. It's just, you know, there's, it's going to cocoon it around me now.
Speaker 0 00:12:18 I think she's really excited about the conversation. She can take action or you can just pick it, just fix it in post.
Speaker 2 00:12:30 So now we're going to green screen now on right out.
Speaker 0 00:12:34 Let's do that, but getting back into, uh, getting back into it, uh, so, you know, it's, it's not, and this, this is, this is actually kind of an interesting conversation that I actually have with you, Tracy and Tim, and a lot of other folks, you know, um, you know, people think like, oh, why don't I just throw some more well-intended I'm not saying that this is a, this is a kind of malicious or, uh, sort of a step stop gap measure. I think a lot of very well-intended people say like, okay, well, let's just get more folks in here to get it more diverse and then problem solved. And you know, again, that's only a percentage of the action you need to take. It's it's they do it all on the ratios. Right. And it's important to realize that you're talking about human centered systems. So even if you're dealing in tech, like working together as a team, as a human centered system, a human powered system. So, you know, you can't take, I'll take, you know, X and none of the best and you know why I'm missing. Yeah. It's not, it's not a recipe, you know, it's not, it's not baking a cake. You know, that's not what we're doing here. What we're, what we hear is, is building a culture. And there's a very distinct difference between that 50 you look like you're,
Speaker 2 00:13:48 I'm just, I, yes, I, everything that, about that conversation is it lands with me, right? Like I legitimately had a conversation with an incredibly high ranking Salesforce executive who spent 20 minutes trying to convince me that all we needed to do was recruit the right numbers of people from the right places. And as soon as we crossed 30% threshold, then like our problems would be solved. And I was like, how does this solve your problem? And they were like, well, it's just been shown that companies that cross this 30% threshold or whatever number they were quoting at me just to have better cultures. And it takes care of itself. And I was like, I don't feel this is that real. And I was kind of flabbergasted because this was somebody who was tasked with leading the endeavor to change how we
Speaker 0 00:14:52 Worked. So, so, so in, in that person's defense, I think that, you know, there is a takeaway there that obviously more representation is better, right? You're going to get more voices, but there's no magic that happens. There's work that happens in that space. You know, when you, you, you can't just expect having a diverse team to solve the problems. There's a missing step there. Uh, I, I, I think of the, the south park episode, uh, there's a, I should probably shouldn't mention
Speaker 2 00:15:23 Which one, this is great,
Speaker 0 00:15:25 But let's start with, with the underpants gnomes. Right. And they're basically, they steer steel socks, you know, like how you lose socks and all sorts of like scarves and stuff like that. And they said like, well, one of the boys captures one of them. And so it's like, well, you know, why are you stealing my socks? Why are you stealing all my stuff? It's like, well, you know, step one, you know, steal clothing, step two. I don't know. Step three, profit.
Speaker 2 00:15:48 Yes.
Speaker 0 00:15:50 That's not how any of this works.
Speaker 2 00:15:55 I was like, I was really trying to hammer on that step two. And I was like, first of all, it sounds like you just gave all of those people a second job on top of their ordinary job. And I said, secondly, like, you know, I'm looking at this from an LGBT lens and seeing like, you know, I was trying to even just be like, look, I'm not going to speak to the rest of this with you. I'm just going to say, like, you're talking about hiring a lot of LGBT folks and a lot of gender variant folks, but where you're putting them are in these sort of, back of the house positions, you know, where it's like, great, they're all developers. They never have a light of day contact with our customer. Great. They're all internal admins. They never go frontlines for the business. And I'm like, that's not actually creating change. Even if what you're doing is hiring people, because what you're actually doing is enforcing that sort of front of house, back of house paradigm that exists in a lot of food service restaurants where it's like the front of the house looks one way in the back of the house looks entirely different, but to the customer, they'll never know the difference. And the whole point here is to change the front culture, not the back operations.
Speaker 0 00:17:10 Well, it's a change of growth I would argue. So I would say great. Yes. More in the back of the house, but yes, great. More than the front of the house too. Right. Um, because it has to be everywhere, but I think they're kind of centering on an interesting issue. So when you, when you place folks, uh, when you paste underrepresented voices into these positions, there, there, again, there's no magic. So what's the key problems that a lot of companies have is retention of those folks because, you know, they get there and sometimes they find that maybe they're the only, like in smaller organizations or even large organizations too, or if there's no supportive, there's no support there for them to be able to successfully really be part of a team. And that goes, that goes to culture, but there's, again, there there's, it's not a magical exercise.
Speaker 0 00:18:02 It's not something that will take care of itself. And at amplify, we know this and you know, part of that is how can we, what part of the question we ask ourselves when we ask, you know, our partners and we want to partner with folks on this is how can we really make these environments a place where everyone, because when you improve conditions for underrepresented voices, understand that you are improving conditions for everyone in that. So I just want to get that down for us. This isn't sort of like a special thing just for, uh, folks who fit that description. You're a rising tide, right. Um, but part of it is cultural. It's like, how do you, how do you have opportunities for real career development, real advancement, real transparency, real communication, uh, authenticity in that regard is very important. And these sound like kind of like baseline sort of issues that every company should, or every organizations had to hear too.
Speaker 0 00:19:00 But these are the sorts of things you have to pay very meticulous attention to, especially when you're trying to build, grow, build, and grow diverse teams. Right. And there are other specifics there too, but, you know, uh, folks, folks that I've talked to, it's just like, well, you know, that, that might take some resourcing. It might take some, yeah. It's gonna take some resources. It's gonna take some effort, right? Yeah. You don't say, but, but it's worth it because in the end, your organization is going to be better off for it. Everyone in your organization will benefit from that kind of environment. Right. Uh, so, so, you know, um, I think there's a, there's, there's a lot of conversation. There's a lot of, um, there's, there's a lot of work to be done in that area, across the board, in every organization, even the organizations who are doing well. Right. We can all improve.
Speaker 3 00:19:57 Yeah. I can, I can speak to that directly about seeing the need to improve systems in order to create equality. And so, um, you know, just speaking from my experience at now, it matters and having, you know, very strong advocates for this as part of the team that, you know, are, are, are focused on, okay, what changes do we need to make? And one of the early learnings that I had to accept as a leader was that, um, in equality masks, as efficiency, and I had, I had to get my head around the fact that what is efficient today, you know, um, steps, a lot of conversations. And to me that looks like a value add because all of those conversations take time that are non-billable and you know, that are process oriented and that are overhead. And I will tell you as a small organization, that is a really important consideration.
Speaker 3 00:21:04 You just have to think that through. And I just had, I had the benefit of a leadership team that would not let things like that lie. And so we created this space to have those conversations and to create those policies not. And I would say that did not happen quickly. That hope happened over years. And I think that that's fine. It it's actually important to let that take the time it takes, but it was really important for me to get my head around the fact that, you know, inequality does look like efficiency. Um, and, and you have to actually stop and say, you know, the outcome here. And again, it's back to intentions versus outcomes. If the outcome is that we want this, then we have to do that. And, uh, and I think leaders are, I think leaders don't accept that as much as I would hope that they would. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:21:59 I mean, it, Tim, it really has a lot to do. I mean, the first question anyone should ask, whether you're, you're building a shed for your backyard, you're trying to put together some software or you're putting together human teams. What is your desired outcome? What is the desired result? And then work backwards from that, um, any kind of shortcuts or any sort of things that may masquerade as efficiency you have to ask yourself, is this, is this a short term, mid term or longterm fix? Um, and you know, quite frankly, it goes back to our house analogy earlier. It's, you know, you're not going to be able to build a sturdy, anything without a solid foundation that goes, you know, and that's, that's pretty much it, you can cut corners all you want, but eventually we've all seen it, you know, and we can think of use cases, abound about folks. Who've tried to get stuff done, but they quickly cut corners and then it all falls down, you know, uh, it's not sustainable. And what we're looking for is sustainability. We're looking for real change. We're looking for real developments. Um, you know, so that's, that's what worries
Speaker 3 00:23:10 Outcome on the, I'd love that your answer to me about what's the difference between performative action and other action is, you know, okay. Focused action takes into account the outcome. And, and I will say, um, leaders are too focused on wanting to see the staff page on their website show more color, right? Like if that's the outcome, I'll tell you right now is performative like that formative right now, if that's the goal and you know, and part of the reason I know that is that I had to come to, um, I had to, for now it matters come to the place where I recognized we're actually maybe too small to be a good environment for people who would come in and be the only, and if that was part of the conversation, that's fine. But I heard that feedback from multiple staff who we did not retain, who said, we'd love it here. You've worked really hard. You know, you're definitely an ally, but the reality is I experienced the high degree of being the only, and that was like, it was clear to me that that was a cost to them that I did not factor in.
Speaker 0 00:24:25 You know, I think that this is that let's talk about the only, um, that's really complex follow up. Okay. Okay. So let's talk about that. So, you know, if I'm getting a little up close and personal here, um, you know, in my professional experience, it's been more likely than not being a black woman in tech for over 20 years in higher education for over 28 years, uh, and various other roles, uh, looking around and seeing myself as the only, so there are a couple things here, uh, first off, again, trying to make that environment, that environment welcoming and a place where the only feels like they are connected. And even though there may not be similarity, there still can be shared mission, shared goals, shared focus that can bring everyone together, at least within a certain context that always helps. But the other flip side of that is how do we prepare folks who are kind of the initial pioneers in this space, right.
Speaker 0 00:25:31 To feel more comfortable being the only, and also help them find the support they need, whether it's inside or outside of the organization to sustain themselves as the numbers grow. Right. Um, on a personal level, you know, it's, it's, it's one of these sort of things where, you know, sought community in my immediate, my immediate job, uh, my immediate job, I mean, my immediate department, sometimes I seek community in other places, uh, whether it's a user group or an organization focused on, you know, folks who identify as I do. Uh, and then I bring that to work with me. Uh, so there, there are a lot of ways to mitigate that. If you're not, if you're an organization, who's not, doesn't quite have those numbers, there are other supports. And, you know, sometimes that's still, isn't enough for a lot of folks and that's not a failing on you necessarily, if you're making the effort, especially if you're listening and trying to help, and it's not a failing for them either. It's just, you know, sometimes the circumstances just don't work out, but, um, but the effort, the focused effort, getting back to focused effort and, and making sure you have those resources, I think that's really important.
Speaker 2 00:26:46 Well, there's a couple of things implied in what you're saying. One of which was actually my followup question for you. I mean, first of all, there's a level of humility for leaders in all of these actions that I think a lot of corporate environments condition you very quickly to perceive humility and vulnerability is weakness. So there is a, an element of humility and being able to say, I don't have answers. That's very hard, I think for any corporate leader to say, because you're put where you are to have answers, but also connecting it, you know, to, you know, a moment of personal frustration at big corporate entity. Like, you know, I finally said like almost three years into it, I was like, Hey guys, not for nothing. You have an employee resource group here. And Tracy's feelings on ERG is a whole nother podcast, but like, and you've provided 47 slots for my gender pronouns.
Speaker 2 00:27:51 And, and, you know, nobody fucking reads them. Like why bother? Like you're not teaching people to pay attention. You're ticking a box that provides a data point and moving forward. And, you know, they didn't really like to hear that. Um, but what I actually wanted to dig into a little bit more with you is this, um, oh shoot. It's the idea that, you know, I think for our listeners, it's important to call out the fact that there are organizations like amplify that provide networks for people who are the very people who are on the Vanguard of trying to make this change possible. And, and what I would say directly is you better believe people talk to each other, you better believe so you might have your report card about how you perceive your business doing there is a shadow report card out there for every company, period, big and small, and every person big and small because to engage in this is to create the vehicle by which that report card is generated. And I think it's really important to call out the more that we become accustomed to working with the organizations that are facilitating both humility and community, the better adaptable you'll be as a business towards your actual desired end state outcome.
Speaker 0 00:29:28 I, you know, those are, those are great points, Tracy. I couldn't agree with you more. And you know, I know shadows report card sounds kind of terrifying. I don't know.
Speaker 2 00:29:36 I love it. I love terrifying people just a little bit,
Speaker 0 00:29:41 But you know, it's true. Um, you know, folks leaders out here, CEOs and such people need to know that you can put whatever you want on your website. You can give whatever podcast interviews you'd like to do and talk about how rosy and wonderful things are at your company. But word of mouth is word of mouth and, you know, you know, help you help people who currently work there, how people who have left the organization that does circulate, and that does impact your ability to be able to recruit and retain, you know, so, so that's, that's just a reality, right? Um, but I think that a lot of organizations like in, in, in addition to making it, making things more welcoming and hooking people into support networks and such one thing that organizations really do need to do know or do rather is when there is a violation, when there is someone who is, uh, dis who's being disrespectful or unsafe towards a colleague who may be LGBTQ, um, a person of color woman neurodiverse.
Speaker 0 00:30:51 And if the company has been very clear at the onset about this, this, this is not congruent with our core values, the flip side of that Tracy and Tim is that the company has to make it very clear what the penalties are and they have to follow through on them. That's really excellent point because let's think about this. All right. You know, one thing about diversity equity and inclusion and belonging training is that there's a lot of emphasis on having people feel better about certain situations. But the fact of the matter is, is that if it gets hostile or out of, if it gets hostile to the point where it gets out of control, that that that's not doing anything, it becomes by definition performative. I mean, if you're violating company policy, you, you know, you have to go, nobody like nobody, you know, goes to an employee who consistently let's say, I don't know, doesn't show up for work when they say they're supposed to show up for work. Um, you know, it's like you're supposed to be here at, at 10 or whatever you're supposed to get something done. And so it's like, well, I understand that, like in your background, you weren't really, you know, accustomed to having those sort of rules around getting here at 10 o'clock. And you know, we're going to try to work with you to make you feel better about you fire them.
Speaker 0 00:32:11 You know? So if you've got, if you've got actors in your organization who are violating what you espoused as your company values and your company rules, I mean, obviously you have to level set, make sure everybody understands what those are and yes, mistakes happen. And you know, sometimes X, Y, and Z, but if you've got a consistent problem, you need to address it because if you don't, don't only does that hurt individuals, but it also hurts your organization reputationally. And you're not going to be able to attract not just the first talent, but like actual focused talent who are passionate about what they do is not going to want to be part of an organization that degregates people in general for the most part. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:32:55 And I will say the power dynamics on, on employee power have really shifted with a great resignation. And I'm glad, I'm really glad that there is now some level of recourse around that and Makita in here, plant on that. That is such a great point. I mean, if we're talking about, you know, like the shadow glass door, if your reputation out there, um, I think that there's an internal shadow policy, the things that count and the things that don't actually, and everybody like, of course it is because there's so much policy in every organization. Like of course there are like policies that matter more or are going to be recognized more. But I would love, I would love to see a, you know, an executive on a performance improvement plan because of, you know, their misogynistic comment. I love to see that, like, that would be so great to see. And to your point, if you have the policy and you're not using it, that's performative.
Speaker 0 00:34:01 Right. Precisely. And we're seeing the results of that. I'm not going to name any specific companies, but I think we've all been watching the news and we're seeing a lot of incidents, especially around, uh, well, you know, the game development space, a few other places where, uh, CA uh, culture has run a muck, because there, there was no enforcement, especially for those at the very top, you gotta walk the walk, walk the talk, because that's leadership, right? Anything else ain't leadership, you know, and absolutely
Speaker 2 00:34:32 That's the fallacy of meritocracy, right? I mean, really is what, what I hear you scratching the sort of, you know, taking that little scratch off on the, on the lottery ticket here and saying, Hey, meritocracy isn't, and it's not about, you know, like Bobby's a functional alcoholic, but he gets that code written. It's about the damage that someone like that is doing to your organization and to the people around them. That is what you actually should be tracking. And you're not right. And if you look at what's been happening in the game space, you know, the number one value of that space has always been, did you get the code written and is it working? And therefore it becomes by hook or crook that this happens. And then entire industry is shaped around the idea that if you have to work at 90, you know, hour, week, you can, if you do your code in 14 minutes, right before it's due, and it works, you do that, but it's damaging and it's damaging to that inclusion. So, uh, you know where I want to actually point, this is obviously you can't take that straight on and immediately remediated it. So what is the order of operations here? Because if you're a company like that, going back to our earlier discussion, putting more people into the mix who are more vulnerable to that, ain't gonna work. So what's the order of operations here. Like, what's the sort of, because dune just came out, you know, what's the golden pack here, right?
Speaker 0 00:36:14 Oh my goodness. Can we talk about the doom movie? Because I would love to maybe not like, maybe that's another podcast. We should do some movie, like what movies that have books, who better movies. I'm like the second or third try and why or why not?
Speaker 2 00:36:31 I would love that.
Speaker 0 00:36:33 But to your question, Tracy, you know, obviously, I mean, it's, uh, it's it, and this is maybe when I get a little, little quantitative, if you throw garbage into, if you throw, if you throw, uh, certain elements into garbage, it's going to end up being garbage. It's going to get overwhelmed by garbage. You know, you can't, you cannot just throw spaghetti at the wall and hope and pray that everything's gonna work out. So like, oh my gosh, we've got a problem. We need to diversify. We need to get more people in the mix. No, no, no. It's about drawing back focused attention level, setting, identifying again, what your outcomes, I sound like a broken record. You have to identify what your desired outcomes really are. If you're really trying to build an organization that's built on trust, that's built on, um, you know, transparency that's built on, uh, you know, uh, folks respecting each other and getting work done.
Speaker 0 00:37:35 You know, you need to identify the elements that you need to put in place for that to happen. You need to make sure that everyone understands and adopts those, that culture and those values and those rules and move forward. But, you know, trying to, uh, do anything outside of that as an initial step is a recipe for disaster. Even though I said it wasn't a recipe earlier, I'll call myself out for my own hypocrite. Um, but, but it's true. Y'all, it's true. And, and, you know, I think I, I, I understand like folks want immediate change, but sometimes you have to go a little backwards to go forward. If you build upon a shaky foundation, if you build more stories upon a shaky foundation, you have a building that's going to collapse in on itself, just doesn't work that way. So for different organizations, specific steps in specific order of operations will bury. But first that first step is I think, critical whether you're an organization of five or a organization of 50,000,
Speaker 3 00:38:43 Uh, what is, what is that first step? And just to say our, you know, in, in our space, the organizations besides Microsoft, Salesforce, whatever, the organizations that really serve nonprofits through technology are relatively small, right? So especially service organizations, you're looking at organizations of less than 50 and even product organizations are probably less than 50. A lot of them are less than 25 even. And those organizations like the steps you take, I think must be different than the steps you take. If you have, you know, a thousand employees or,
Speaker 0 00:39:21 Oh yeah. Oh, well, you know, the actual, the actual steps are, are going, or the actual actions will vary, but the steps or the categories of stabs will mostly be so low line somewhat, right. It might be a little bit shorter, but you know, like I said, it has to do with identifying what your outcomes, your desire, your true desired outcomes are. That's I know it sounds very basic, but it's, it's true if you, if you think, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, if your outcome is to have more brown faces on your employee website, then throwing more, Piring more brown people and putting them on your company website will be your outcome. I don't think that's what your outcome should be if you're looking to diversify your organization. So you need to identify what those outcomes are. Is it, do you want to build a culture of, uh, transparency, uh, of trust, uh, of, uh, teamwork of, uh, respecting others driving towards a common goal?
Speaker 0 00:40:29 Do you want to make sure that you have an environment where folks have the opportunity to advance in their positions and thrive and learn? Do you want to have a culture where it's even okay. Like once folks get to be a certain point and be transparent about like, okay, like you've grown to a certain point, we're going to, we're going to help you get something somewhere else so that you can grow your career. And we want to be supportive of that. You need to identify what that is specifically, like, what are you trying to do? Like I said, if you are trying to just performatively show everybody that you're an ally, uh, you know, that's not real, that's not real allyship. That's not, that's not real accomplice, uh, you know, being a real complice. Um, and, and I should actually talk a little bit about the difference between ally and co and accomplice, uh, and how we use that, a apple pie, uh, you know, if you really want to make a change, you have to decide to make that change. And then you have to identify what, what those changes are and put a planning to put planning together to, to do that. But again, throwing spaghetti at the wall piece.
Speaker 3 00:41:35 Yeah. I can stay as a well-meaning white CEO that really has been on my own journey for years now, is that it was not obvious to me. I know this just is like confirming everything, you know, we're hoping it's not true of us, but it is what, what I think I thought was, okay, I don't want us to all just be white faces. So it's about like recruiting. And that was really like, you know, that was helpful. And I think where, what I've learned in, you know, the long span of my efforts on this has been actually, you have to create a con, you have to create the conditions where people can stay and it's good for everybody. And that is, uh, it is just not obvious. Uh, it is just not obvious at first. And that is, um, it is so true and, and hard to know. And so I will say like the intermediary step of, unless you've developed the culture, you're not re like that outcome is a last, uh, last thing you get to, and there, all of these incremental steps in the meat, in the middle, and that I've learned almost all of the steps by the way from amplify. Thank you. Um, thank you. And, and those have gone before on, on teaching, uh, on teaching that, but it is, it, it is important to know what those, what those steps are. Um, you know,
Speaker 0 00:43:07 Well, Tim, you know, I'm glad that amplifier has been able to be so helpful with that, and we've appreciated your support over the years and the other partners as well, partners. I mean, salesforce.org, exponent presence, solemn, you know, bright step day, spring, Idaho, wide wild, uh, north peak, William Blair. And so many individuals who have stepped up and helped us get this kind of, uh, this kind of messaging out and get these sort of, uh, tools out to folks. And we want to try to expand that and make those resources more available to, uh, to businesses, large and small, uh, as well as equipping underrepresented voices with, you know, different kinds of, uh, upskilling and training and such. Uh, so I'm so glad to hear that, uh, we've been, uh, a great resource for you and, uh, that makes me smile.
Speaker 2 00:44:02 Well, also for the record, you know, since we're talking about records, you're not, you're not being redundant. You're speaking like a policy analyst, like an actual policy analyst will not say, what is our intent here? Right. An actual policy analyst will say, what is the outcome we need? And then let's think through the steps to get to that outcome. And I think that differentiates the groups of folks who have a lot of feelings, but no action versus the groups that actually do take action on these issues. Um, you know, because if we were talking about anything else in this world, like years ago, and I do mean 20 years ago, I spent a little bit of time looking into what it means to be a down winder, right. In, out in the sort of Southwest area of our country. And, you know, the outcome that was needed was, you know, we need the nuclear waste off of our land.
Speaker 2 00:45:08 Right. But the policies were all shaped towards essentially incentivizing the companies that were doing the pollution to kind of like, look less bad about it. Right. So there was this huge disconnect where it was like, you might look less bad about this, but like all the stuff that you put here for the past 50 years prior, still ain't gone. Right. So, you know, if this were any other issue, we would have to take that lens. And where I feel like we stumble is on that sort of stumbling block of I'm well-intended, you know, and, and that, that is, uh, that is, uh, you know, we can dive into that, you know, well-intended white folks, man. That's like the story of avatar the movie. Right. But, you know, we can dive into that, but intention, ain't going to get us where we need to be.
Speaker 0 00:46:11 Let me tell you something, Tracey, that, well, that was interesting. Uh, it's very analogous to what we're talking about, but I think that's well, intentioned pieces. I mean, this is, this is a human problem. I don't think we can exclusively tag it to any particular group. I think we all, uh, you know, we're always well-intended, but if, unless we actually put together systems to address the issues, the issues aren't going to go away. And so, you know, it's, it's fascinating that you, you kind of call out how my worldview sort of works. And I think it has a lot to do with my policy training. You know, I I'm, I'm about solving problems, you know? And so the question is we know what the problem is and such, but like, okay, so what do we want to see the future? What is the future state? What do we want, instead of saying, let's try to mitigate what's happening at these different points, you know, here, like we need to kind of see the bigger picture. And I think that's, that's the most helpful approach with this particular issue and to your point, letting litany of others used to yeah.
Speaker 3 00:47:23 One of the, um, I know that one of the actions that you encourage is for people to volunteer through amplify, um, and, and to engage through volunteering. Um, I would love for you to take a minute and talk through what those opportunities are and, um, what the value of that is. And I know just from you that volunteerism is actually an important, uh, an important value to you. So, um, I think we'd love to hear more about that.
Speaker 0 00:47:54 I'm so glad you asked me about this, Tim. Um, yeah. Volunteerism is, is so important to me because it's, it's not just about, and I'm not minimizing this. It's not just about getting out there and, and, uh, doing something that you enjoy and helping others. But I think the grander sense it's about community building. You know, once you can give a part of yourself to a cause that you care about, you know, you are essentially building connections between people, yourself, and others, uh, in and out of that organization potentially. And you know, whether you're, I mean, goodness gracious. We love volunteers at amplify. We are volunteer run. I just want to make that very clear and everything that we've managed to do has been because of all of our wonderful volunteers. Uh, but if they don't tell me what the amplify, isn't something that you'd be interested in, although we'd love to have you do that, please visit the amplify website at, we are amplified.org and click on volunteer.
Speaker 0 00:48:55 Um, if you're even at your local soup kitchen, or if you're participating in a community cleanup day, these are ways that we come together as people for common shared mission goals and value, right? And that's how we build community. I, on a personal note, I find that volunteerism help is it, it helps me. It's a very important part of my self-care, uh, because, you know, you want to give up yourself not too much, not to the point where you're going to be depleted, but knowing that or hoping that whatever I'm doing is making a positive contribution to people and causes that I care about gives me a boost to it keeps my optimism strong, uh, and it just keeps me going. And, um, you know, if folks haven't really kind of taken a look at volunteering in their community, uh, they really should, like I said, you know, we love volunteers and amplified. That's how we're run. If you're interested in helping out with our, uh, certification, uh, study groups, we, we, we have a whole bunch of opportunities for that, as well as mentoring opportunities. The list is endless, but if, just give a little bit of your time, uh, and your, your, your heart and your intellect to something that you care about, a guarantee that you will see improvements in yourself and in your demeanor, and you'll make the world a better place, too.
Speaker 3 00:50:26 I'm a big of, uh, Kristen giant who, um, lives in Indiana and, uh, has strong opinions on LinkedIn that I, I love engaging. And recently I saw something about, uh, self care and, um, and giving back or volunteering. And, and the point that Kristen was making was, this is actually a way to fill your cup. Um, not, you know, like this is not a depletion activity. This can, this should be, it can be a, you know, a filled position. And I think that that's, I think it's important. I think that we are, right-sizing, you know, mental health and self care in a way that hasn't happened in a long time, but I, I hope that the pendulum doesn't swing so far, that that doesn't include things that are actually getting back as ways that we care for herself. Um, and I think that, that, I love that you're making that point. Makita. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:51:27 Just one other thing I know where we're, hopefully folks are listening to us in January, or maybe even afterwards, but, you know, I think during the holiday season, you know, we kind of are more aware of those sort of opportunities than not. And I would argue that year round is a great time to engage in those opportunities for so many different reasons. So just give that a consideration again, don't, don't give too much of yourself that you get burnt out and you can't function, but giving up yourself so that you're able to energize others and boost yourself.
Speaker 2 00:51:58 You know, I will say one thing, and that is, uh, if you follow why it matters linearly, you know, you'll hear that a few months ago, I was talking about, oh, I'm interviewing for this thing for our town. I'm on the advisory committee now kind of interview process. Uh, well, I made it onto the advisory committee for our next 20 year plan. And, you know, all of what you're saying rings true. Like I thought it would be this horribly bureaucratic and, you know, exercise and why we need small government. And what it's turned into has been like 20 caring individuals who have a lot of amazing perspectives and care for this town that we all live in and really just want to help see something out last them for the future of the town. And I will stay on those calls for two and a half, three hours every other week sometimes, but I will always walk away being like, oh, wow.
Speaker 2 00:53:00 I, I really learned something here. I really saw something differently or I didn't see something differently. I had something reaffirmed. And I just think that, you know, that's so important that element of community in, in healing America really, that you're talking about. And I know that's a common thread in a lot of people's discourse right now is how do we heal from 2020 essentially. But, um, the other thing that I wanted to recenter on was amplified. So you are listening to this podcast as nonprofit serving folks as executives, you know, maybe you work in certain spaces in our ecosystem, Salesforce, Microsoft, some of the other kind of major platform players or ISBNs. And you're saying, gosh, I really want to do something. What do I do with amplify? And how can I get engaged to all of the things that you're talking about? If what I want to do is sort of start that journey.
Speaker 0 00:54:06 Well, the first thing you need to do is just reach out to us if we haven't reached out to you already, and even still reached back out to us reciprocate, please. Um, yeah, just reach out to us. You can reach out to me directly, uh, and you can go to the website to do that. Uh, and, uh, I'll actually put my amplify email out here on the podcast and, uh, maybe we can have it in the show notes, perhaps the best way to get in touch with us. Uh, but our website, like I said, is we are amplified.org. Uh, reach out to us. We want to work with you. Uh, we want to help you, uh, figure out how you can be most effective in this space, whether you have some employees who are interested in volunteering with us, if you're interested in supporting us, you know, every, every partnership that we have, uh, the specialist financial support enables us to deliver the services that we can deliver to our membership.
Speaker 0 00:55:06 You know, even though we are volunteer driven, this is not a free enterprise. You know, when we, uh, talk about different kinds of certifications, when we talk about getting certain materials for different kinds of trainings, you know, all of these things take resources and of course, just operational resources that we have, uh, you know, to supporting our work is so important. Uh, but also we want to support you too. So, uh, we reach out to us and let us know, um, how we can help and, uh, because we are here for that. Uh, and, um, yeah, Tracy, I, I, I do want to loop back to what you said about, uh, just volunteers and one more time, uh, for both for individuals who are out there, who are, who are thinking about that one great thing about volunteerism and building community is that you get to interact and work with folks that may not be from the same background that you are, but you have a shared and common purpose in either improving your community or working towards another shared goal.
Speaker 0 00:56:06 Uh, you know, it's very important to, to say that we have a lot of different folks at w at amplify who have different political opinions, uh, who come from, I mean, our diversity runs deep, you know, it's it, and it's not just a one type person who thinks one type of way, but what everyone's unified under with amplifiers, that they want to see the world to be a better place. They want to see more equity and, you know, no matter what your political or personal background is, you know, that's, that's where folks come together to work together to do that. So, I mean, we are not a political organization. We do not deal with politics at all. And we, but we have liberals and conservatives, we have everything in between who help us with our mission. I just want to underline that with an exclamation point. Uh, so it's a tremendous opportunity to, to, to, uh, to really make a difference.
Speaker 2 00:57:04 You're, you're getting a lot of the trademark Tracey vigorous head nod to, I think, I think that's something that I would say super important, particularly because there's a lot of assumptions in the it world that a lot of organizations like amplify have a very specific political direction and agenda. And, you know, that is really not the case. You know, I think the greater journey of equity transcends a lot of our perceived divide. And I think that's a really great point to make for our folks who are listening in that is this isn't a liberal problem. It's not a conservative problem. Equity is a shared agenda.
Speaker 0 00:57:52 Absolutely, absolutely. Tracy couldn't have put it better myself.
Speaker 3 00:58:01 Well, thanks so much for your, um, for your time and joining us. And we, we, um, as long term fans and supporters, partners of amplify, really excited about, um, what, you're, what you're doing, where, where you're taking things. Um, and, um, thanks for, thanks for continuing to amplify that out, uh, to, to our audience.
Speaker 0 00:58:28 Thank you, Tim. Thank you, Tracy. And just one more thing I wanted to mention, uh, you know, uh, when we're talking about accomplices and ours, we have a program for that to our incredible vice-president Rachel Hans runs that program. And maybe we can put some more information about that in the show notes as well, and why we prefer to say accomplices rather than allies and why we invite everyone. Who's interested in checking that out and helping, uh, folks, uh, in that capacity to do so.
Speaker 2 00:58:57 Thank you so much. I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 3 00:59:05 What matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services from offering, advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 2 00:59:14 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
