OUR Why IT Matters: Tim Lockie

Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another edition of why it matters. Uh, my name is Tracy <inaudible>, I'm the director of innovation here at now. It matters. And I think the best way that I can describe these episodes are let us take you on a very special why it matters journey. Uh, so I'm here to introduce my stalwart, companion, Tim Lockey, who we've been recording for a year now, and we've never actually explained why some of these conversations and why some of these moments are super important. So this is part two of our, why it matters. I get to interview Tim, uh, which is so much better than the profoundly disquieting experience of being interviewed. And, uh, Speaker 0 00:01:07 Like I've never been nervous. Like this is so easy, but yeah, I'm like, right. Speaker 1 00:01:10 You shouldn't be nervous Speaker 0 00:01:12 Before a test or something. Speaker 1 00:01:14 Ah, it is. It's a test of all our listeners to see if they actually give a damn about who we are, um, and full disclosure for our listeners, by the way, if I sound super raspy, it is because I have caught my first real, God's honest, non COVID related cold in a year and a half. Uh, and this sucks. So may you all catch your first cold soon because it really sucks. So there you go. Um, I'm going to jump right into it. Tell me Tim, tell me your full name, where were you born and, and, and tell me about your childhood and what, what, what that related to, as it was, you know, as it, what that relates to, as it pertains to where you were born. There you go. Speaker 0 00:02:10 All right. My full name is Timothy George Lockie. George is after my grandfather, who I knew was a really interesting guy. Um, I was born in Bozeman, Montana, and I'm third generation Montana. So, um, for, for white people in Montana, that's a long way back. Speaker 1 00:02:36 That's a huge thing for Montana too, to be like third or fourth generation Montana. Speaker 0 00:02:42 There's a thing here. Like, you know, every everybody's like, when did you get here? And I'm just like, whatever, Speaker 1 00:02:49 And it explains why they hate California so much. Cause it was showing up in Speaker 0 00:02:54 Well and they were Californians last year. Right? I think that's so crazy. Anyway. Um, let's see, born in Bozeman, Montana. I had like, like best childhood ever. You know, when you listen to people in their light, they've got like a really hard story about their childhood or whatever. I just am like, man, I'm going to lose that contest every time I like I've got the world's most incredible parents that, you know, there are, they're actually caring people. They live right next door. Like I live in the house next door to the house that I grew up in. Um, and they still live in that house. They bought it when I was 11 months old. It's on lingually place, which is one block long and you know, uh, two blocks away from the best restaurants in Montana and right across the Creek from a park where, you know, the, literally the band plays on Tuesday nights at the farmer's market. Speaker 0 00:03:55 Like it's so Americana is just ridiculous. Um, and so yeah, this is, uh, this is where Bozeman Bozeman was like, uh, is this cute little place? Like when I grew up, when I was growing up, I think it was like 30,000 people here or something. And I remember like horses and not often or anything, but horses would sometimes like be on main street or, you know, um, and or wagons, um, now and tractors and stuff like that. Now it is very like posh. It's like turning into the Jackson hole of Montana. Um, so, and, uh, I am so in terms of childhood. So my, my mom is Jenny. Like the, my dad's day of lucky, a couple of things that shaped my childhood. Um, my dad lost his business in 1980 or 1979 because of radical inflation. And, um, you know, he had just started the business a couple of years before was doing really well. He was the first, uh, first person in Montana to have an excavator, which I think is really cool because I love that because I didn't Speaker 1 00:05:13 Know that about your dad. Speaker 0 00:05:14 Yeah, no, he was, yeah. He was the snow removal and excavation. And so like, you know, among other things you can talk to him about, which is like a whole bunch of conversations. One of them is all about excavating and stories about places in Bozeman that he put in foundations. And it was really interesting. So Speaker 1 00:05:34 Your dad was a Potter. Uh, I had no idea about the excavation stuff. What's hilarious is I've met both of your parents and in my mind, your mom is Jenny and your dad is firmly. Mr. Locky. Speaker 0 00:05:51 It's really interesting. I wonder why, but Speaker 1 00:05:54 No, he's scares the hell out of me, Speaker 0 00:05:56 Like such a casual guy, but I can't take, I can't bring myself to remember. Okay. I don't remember the moment that I was like, Tracy, my dad are going to be friends forever was when we were at their kitchen table. I know this moment, a couple of years back and you and Amy and my dad and I were all playing settlers of Catan and my dad made some Dick moves that like, like completely cut you off wholly unnecessary, by the way. Yeah, absolutely. No, it was great. It like completely crashed your strategy and tricky where to win. And I looked over and he was like trying not to smile and be really cool, but he was so proud of himself. It is just, I looked over at you and you were like, okay, this guy's human. And that was actually a really good play. And you got a little bit of respect and then a lot of laughter after that. Speaker 0 00:06:50 And uh, so I was like, okay, that's fun. I will say this about my parents. They, they are like, I came from an evangelical, very conservative patriotic family, lot to laugh. Yeah, exactly. But what I, what I'll say is that it's like, how many even know how to say this, but it was the good kind, you know what I mean? Like, um, and, and after meeting you befriending, you like a lot of my perspectives in life changed actually has been part of what I love about our friendship is that you've helped me rethink a lot of things. But what was always included in my childhood was a steady stream of hospitality. People that would stay with us from all walks of life, um, whether they were, you know, exchange students from Africa that were coming through, whether they were, you know, there were exchange students that lived with us for awhile. Speaker 0 00:07:54 There were people that were down and out on their luck that needed a place to go. Um, we just had this steady stream of people that would live in, stay with us. And I just thought that was normal that you just like, as a kid, you would just have guests that stay in your house with you for extended amounts of time. And then they come back because they found my parents so welcoming. So they were constantly coming back. So I had a steady stream, uh, influence coming in from the south side outside space. I think it was really helpful. Um, and that is kind of how my mom and dad are really welcoming and like you, you know, right. Um, talk to them, um, about anything. So I, I thought that was interesting. So, uh, I have an older sister, an older brother and a younger sister. Speaker 0 00:08:40 My younger sister is learning disabled. And so I grew up with the sense of protecting her and just like, you know, um, I was around when she was young retard is the, was officially, they said, I know it's just so crazy to hear that now. Um, and then, you know, Ben handicapped and disabled and challenged, you know, and, and so working through that and being in high school and elementary school with, you know, a sister who is in the special resource room or special ed room, uh, taught me a lot about dignity and you can get to like pick out people that were terrible people just by the way that they would interact with my sister, you know? Um, and so I, I think that helped me develop a sensitivity around people are not what they seem, but there are things, there are ways that you can find out who they really are. And my sister was one of the bets. You can just kind of see who people really are when they're interacting with her. She's kind of like the forest Gump of Bozeman too. Like everybody in Bozeman knows Becky. And, you know, I went from being, doshas rather to Becky's brother and was always like their child syndrome, always like one of the siblings. So, um, Speaker 1 00:09:57 Becky's also high Lariat and she delivers things. So dead pan that you're like, oh, that's really funny, but oh God, wow. Yeah. She is hilarious. Speaker 0 00:10:13 Yeah. She's great. Yep. And then, uh, yeah, and yeah, she is really great. Um, and living next to her, you know, after we moved back from San Francisco living next to her, I just have a whole new appreciation for, um, for, or her willingness to embrace joy when there's a lot of hardship in her life and she just like shakes it off. Um, and so, uh, and that, that's not, it's not like it isn't easy and not effort for her to do that, but she chooses to, and again, I think that's a credit to my mom and dad, I think the way that they, um, that they raised all of us, but the way they looked after Becky was really, really, um, and say how I look at parenting as well. Speaker 1 00:10:55 And I get the sense of from your mom and dad in particular is, and I think that's cause wasn't Becky working at the museum of the Rockies at some point, am I imagining that? Was she working there? Okay. She was working somewhere when I met her like a couple of years ago when, you know, travel, Travel. Um, but I felt like she was working somewhere, but like her sense of like I'm working somewhere was just very grounded. Yeah. Speaker 0 00:11:30 Yeah. I will say walkies work. Yeah. That is like, that is one of the things that I grew up with is that, you know, you know, you, you get up and you help. Um, and you know, work is, um, like anything besides useless is, was one of the kind of stigmas I had to overcome. And for myself was realizing like there are boundaries to the benefits on that. And there's some times where not working is actually really important and people's work actually needs to have a different indicator than just are they capable of doing X and are they willing of doing it? So, um, but yeah, no, Becky worked at FID records for years, 14 years or something, and there's a car B's now. And, um, yeah. And there was, there was never like a question of like, you shouldn't be doing this or you can't do this. Speaker 0 00:12:24 It's just like, you're doing absolutely. Yeah. Um, I would say one other facet of, um, growing up in my family is that I, I was a religious zealot. So like I was that it's so good that you and I did not know each other until much, much later in life, Tracy, like you like, yeah, I am. I'm in so many ways ashamed of how I thought one would go about being a good person and instead accomplish the exact opposite. In many, many cases, I will say this, I was absolutely financier and I did not, I was not mostly a jerk about it all. I really was mostly out to care for people that just came with a whole flood of privilege and, you know, in visibility about what about like on the other side that I did not realize until later in life. Um, but it wasn't earnest and, um, maybe not well executed. Speaker 0 00:13:32 Um, but it also wasn't hypocritical and, you know, and I think that, that, you know, so I didn't, I didn't, I didn't drink in high school. Um, and I'm really glad in fact, I made a decision never to drink when I was 12 years old, uh, after seeing one person in the room says, well, it's interesting. I do think like, I absolutely feel like I'm an alcoholic. It just never started. So I, I, so many times in life I'm like, I S I completely vegetable in on that. So, um, yeah, so I grew up in Bozeman. I was through till I was 18 graduated. I ran track cross country did swim team one year because there was a girl in billings that I wanted to go see at swim meets. Uh, then I found out there was nothing for me. It was totally, I had to get out of it. My mom was like, uh, I learned to play the piano because I figured out at, uh, at a Bible camp that chicks really loved piano. So I was like, I'm going to learn that and did, and so I'm actually, one of the things people don't know about me probably is I can play piano pretty well. Um, and, and almost it's easy for me to pick up instruments. So I played drums. I learned accordion for awhile, which is very nerdy and, uh, we'll never Speaker 1 00:14:52 Learn accordion from weird Al Yankovic. I Speaker 0 00:14:54 Did not, although I did go to Murdoch, came to Boston and I did go to one of his concerts. And if you think weird hours vere, oh yeah. See nothing until you seen his fans like back, like, oh yeah. So that was, that was real stuff. Um, so, Well, that's my child. Speaker 1 00:15:15 So here's a question that's a follow-up and a pivot to the format we've been using for this. And that is faith for you is huge. Right. And, you know, we only touched on at the end of my interview, you're like, oh, by the way, Tracy, you're ordained in the temple of ISIS and so on and so forth. And I'm like, yeah, but I've talked about that an awful lot. But I think what's interesting about it is faith is huge for me too. It's just not the faith. Everybody assumes should be faith. Right. But, but you actually grew up in the faith that everybody assumes it should be faith to the point. And I don't know if you still are because, you know, travel, but like, you know, you will still wear your, your evangelical, uh, silver ring with the fish on it. Right. And I know that has meaning to you. Uh, and I, and I think that's a really interesting topic to dig in on, because everything that you are challenges the precepts of, of that foundation that was built. Speaker 0 00:16:33 Yeah. Wow. There's a lot of content there. What I can say is, um, when I was just graduated high school or just before, I can't remember which, um, I really started to, I read the sermon on the Mount and Jesus meant it. Right. And, um, there's some stuff in there that is just whack compared to the way that evangelicals especially live. And so I remember talking to, uh, a pastor at the time about that was like, okay, are we really supposed to be non-violent no, that's metaphor. Really. That's interesting because this is like in a Roman occupied state, a peasant is saying like, we should be, non-violent like, that's a, that's like, if there's a moment to be violent, it is that, you know, and in a long history Speaker 1 00:17:34 Radical. Speaker 0 00:17:35 Yeah, exactly. And that the beatitudes blessed are the meek. Like I like that, that just doesn't fit. Um, don't store up treasures on earth, like re like, okay, so what about all these savings accounts then homes and, you know, and my family. And so just to be really clear, and I didn't, I didn't even think to mention, we have, I grew up privileged, but poor, like, like, um, when my dad lost the excavating business, uh, he lost his means of income. He, uh, he became a Potter of all things. And so there were, you know, for a, for all of my S until after high school, my parents really were tight on money. And that meant sometimes, like we were going to dumpsters of grocery stores and picking through produce. Um, I don't think they ever, ever considered going on food stamps. Like, it just never crossed their mind, but, but that we would go and find food that had been tossed out by grocery stores, like was like, that is part of how we ate. Speaker 0 00:18:40 Um, and so I grew up, um, I grew up with out a lot in some ways, but I never, I, I didn't feel like we were a poor family. And I think it was just like my brother did. And, and I could see the evidence of it. It just didn't strike me that way. But when I saw, when I started reading about Jesus, like you don't like if you've got two shirts, give one away. And like, that was so radically different than all of these rich people I was at church with. It just did not connect. And I remember asking church leaders all over the place, and until I met Jenny's dad, I did not have a sufficient answer to that, which is part of how I met Jenny's dad, um, was, so my wife has Jenny. So for those of you that are listening in, um, yes, my mom and my wife had the same first name. Speaker 0 00:19:33 Um, there's a lot to dig in on that. I know exactly. Uh, but yeah, I, I just sum up by saying, like, I just did not, I didn't stop asking really tough questions, which led me out of an unloving uncaring version of faith and towards a very different expression of that. Um, and that, that learning has not stopped that learning is constantly, you know, engaged for me. And I feel like I still learn a lot about what that means, but, um, yeah, I think, I think, yeah, so my faith is still important to me, my, the fissuring that you're talking about, that's my wedding ring. So I will hopefully always wear, I thought that was on your right hand. That's your wedding ring? That I, um, I just didn't place that on the right hand and my head. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I, I, I think the surprising thing about my faith is that I still have some of it given life circumstances and, uh, uh, uh, extremely embarrassing ways that they even angelical church, um, who are my, my tribe. Um, and I really, I struggled to identify with them, but I feel like it's important to, um, because I, I, I want to call us to be better. So yeah, I think that, I think a lot of people would be surprised to find out that I'm doing angelical, Speaker 1 00:21:06 Which it's weird, cause I've kind of always known that. Um, but it's always been an abstraction of me, uh, you know, cause I, I grew up Christian obviously like a lot of us did unless you grew up Jewish. Um, like that was really the only two options in the Northeast. Right. So like, you know, it's just always like Ben, like that abstraction. I, you know, that I knew about with you. Um, so Speaker 0 00:21:35 Just like to put that into perspective, like I had hundreds of scriptures memorized. I like dug in and read the Bible every year I went to cancel, like I was in it in it, like in it. So Speaker 1 00:21:51 We have a chunks of the Bible memorize, but it was much more of a defensive measure. Like Speaker 0 00:21:58 No, actually. Yeah. I think that would totally make sense. Speaker 1 00:22:01 Yeah. Because I was always like, I don't know if you ever saw that scene in west wing where, you know, brilliant Jeff Bartlett just shut somebody down. Yeah. He pulls out Leviticus and he's like, how much would my daughter get on the open market? You know, like that kind of stuff. Right. Like I've always had that kind of defensively memorized Speaker 0 00:22:21 And we stone so-and-so at the city gates. Am I supposed to have two witnesses or four? Like, yeah. That scene is just, it is a great scene. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:22:31 All right. So how does this connect, because one of the questions we've asked each other are, are what are three moments in your life? Three like real transformational moments. Like, Speaker 0 00:22:45 So, um, one of the key moments for me, um, and I've got to set the stage here for a minute on this, but I'll sum it up and say, I met a homeless guy who changed my life and the way I met this homeless guy is that, uh, and this example of how my parents work, um, my dad was a Potter and went, uh, to, you know, pottery on the road and we went to LA and he was driving in LA. My dad is not an artist. He not, I mean, he is, he's a craftsman is very skilled. Um, but very also Montana and Rancho Montana, you know? Um, and so he, he was driving in LA and noticed, I think on the Santa Monica freeway, he noticed the extreme poverty and extreme wealth blocks away from each other. Speaker 1 00:23:38 Yeah. And LA very well. Speaker 0 00:23:41 Exactly correct. Yep. And, um, and so he, um, he got to thinking about how his kids did not have any view of that part of the world and what that looked like. And so he thought to himself for spring break, instead of going and vacationing, wouldn't it be cool to take my family someplace where they could help out, uh, help, help somehow, and also learn about what is like in the inner city? Right. So, um, a story called focus on the family. I kid you not don't focus on the family. In fact, the James Dobson family, and they directed him to the Harami center in Pasadena. I don't think it was still around, but the rhombi center was, um, was, uh, part of a family. Um, a guy named John Perkins had started at John Perkins is a civil rights activist. And, uh, and we went and stayed with the Perkins family and did tutoring and mowed their lawns and painted some stuff. Speaker 0 00:25:01 And in the compound that they lived in and were very, very, very white, rural folk in Pasadena, in the mid eighties. And, you know, uh, it was a, it was a really important learning experience for me, uh, really transformative. And my dad came back and told other people in the church about it, and it was like we helped us out, but mostly we learned so much and got to see a different side of life who was good for our kids. So the next year 30 people went on this mission to the Denver street school and went and just did construction and helped, um, you know, helped build these buildings or remodeled these buildings for a week. Um, and, and did that for the next, I think two decades spring break missions became a thing in Bozeman and there were hundreds of people that would go on these trips, uh, by the time they got spun up. Speaker 0 00:26:01 And I want to say, like, this was actually an element of service projects that were done really well for places like the union gospel mission and Seattle and Spokane and all these kinds of places. Anyway, we were doing this kind of work and, um, in the Denver street school, um, there was, there was a guy that kept wandering around his name was Joseph. He was a homeless guy and for whatever reason, Joseph and I got to be friends. And I wanna say that Joseph picked me out of like all these other, other people around and kind of was like, my bud, um, is not a dangerous homeless person. Um, you know, uh, he would make inappropriate comments to women. So like, you know, he was also like, you know, inappropriate at times. Um, but he, but he really, uh, he and I got to be friends. Speaker 0 00:26:54 I talked with them for, you know, every day we would hang out. Um, and, you know, uh, and then the last day that we were there, he gave me this fake Rolex watch, you know, um, which I proudly wore to my prom. And it was like a real prize possession because it was the, it was shocking to me to go up to a place and think I was there to serve others and do something good for other people. And then realize that this homeless guy gave something to me and it just reversed my view of poverty. And I remember telling my mom, like, I'm always like homeless people are lazy and, you know, um, don't, don't work hard. And, and I was like, well, I don't know that that's the case, but I do know a homeless person named Joseph and that's different for me. Speaker 0 00:27:45 Like, um, Joseph is doing like, he's making different career choices, but he's not a, a morally bankrupt person just because he is homeless. And it created, it created such a distinct moment in my mind around what poverty is and that there's poverty and they're poor people and that this is about, this should be about people, not problems. And, um, and so that, that, that shifted me from whatever it was. I think it was 16 at the time. And I wanted to do, I don't even know what I want to do, but it, it channeled me towards, I want to work, um, with, with poor people, um, people in poverty that in a way that is mutual and I didn't even have the language for what that meant. I had just, I just knew that that was what was important to me and that, and then I w I did that, um, after high school, that meant that instead of going to college, um, I went and lived at a halfway house in the only urban place in Montana that I could find. Speaker 0 00:28:57 And, um, and lived in this, in this halfway house for, and ran and managed this halfway house for a couple of years, uh, did youth work for a ministry and, um, in billings and, and a lot of that was just around, like, how do I, how do I align my people myself with the have nots and stuff of the halves? How do I live on the wrong side of the tracks? And that, that became really important to me, um, to identify, uh, you know, at the place that I live and the way that I live with the have nots. And so the haves just became really important. Um, um, so that was a key moment for me. Did you ever know, I know that you have kept tabs Speaker 1 00:29:41 On and are still friends with some of the folks from that halfway house day. What did you ever keep tabs on Joseph? Like, did you find out what happened Speaker 0 00:29:50 To him? You know, it's so funny, you asked that, um, I later went on to work for a missionary organization, which is where I was working when I started working in Salesforce. And so, um, and, um, one of the things we did was we, um, we started an internship on a new site in Denver, and we worked with the founder of Denver street school, his name's Jeff Johnson. And I told you that Jonathan, you know, way back when you would not remember me from Adam. Um, but I came and I met this guy named Joseph, and it was really interesting. And, um, and then I flew in several times to Denver check on my team and feed them and stuff, um, and got to be friends with Jeff Johnson. One of the times I flew in Jeff was like, Hey, I want you to go for a ride with me. Speaker 0 00:30:32 So I hopped in the car and we went someplace and pulled up, knocked on the door and there was Joseph. Uh, so he knew Joseph. Yeah. And so I was like, holy cow, I know he didn't have an email or a phone or anything like that. So, uh, I was, uh, and, and so the next time I was in town, I was like, Joseph, let's go to lunch anywhere. You want to go, like, we'll go there. And you wanted to go to the burger king. That was part of a gas station. So we went to lunch and exactly, yeah, it was fine. Um, so yeah, uh, I did, uh, it, it felt full circle. In fact, a lot of the places I did that work, I would end up in, uh, like across the street from the gospel mission or, you know, I worked with in Seattle. Speaker 0 00:31:15 Um, so I remember having a conversation with Dave ever all and looking at the window and seeing that mission because it's across from the innovation hub in Seattle. And, uh, and so, yeah. Um, uh, I don't, I think that I have not kept up with very many of them, and I think that that is, uh, the nature of some of that work. And also I'm kind of bad at keeping up with people in general. So, um, but yeah, no, I mean, he was doing fine, um, living inside, which was, which was really great, but yeah, we've had, um, Jenny and I, we had homeless people live with us. Uh, the most expensive homeless person in San Francisco was a friend of ours. Um, you know, before he got a treatment. Um, and, and most of my homeless friends never escaped that life. And that wasn't the point. Speaker 0 00:32:05 And that was really the defining line for me. I wasn't out to turn Joseph into a Christian. I wasn't out to get him off of alcohol, which I'm pretty sure he was on. Um, I wasn't out to get him living in different house. I was out like, I wasn't there to do anything except know this person and like help if I could, but mostly just to be a friend to who they were. Um, and that, that was really different than a lot of the other ways that Christians, I kind of like engaged people in poverty. They just didn't see people, they saw problems. And I really dislike that. Speaker 1 00:32:40 That's interesting. Cause it's also from where I'm sitting like an introduction to systems thinking, in other words, you know, there is a short term goal of convert. This person put a roof over their head, do this, do that. Right. But there's this long-term system of power privilege, access, healthcare, all of these things that come together and put that person where they are. And sometimes it's escapable and sometimes it's not. And, you know, from outside looking in, it seems like what you were actually questioning was, are we treating the problems or are we just treating the symptoms? Speaker 0 00:33:28 I, yeah, absolutely. Um, wow. There's so much content there. It challenge it really at points that became a crisis for me. Like there isn't that much that we can do. And so I found, um, I found that shortly after meeting Joseph, that exact question kept bugging me so much, uh, until, until I really got my head around the central theme of my faith is that God loves us. And that his request is that we do so to others. And that's it. Um, and it didn't need to get more complicated than that. Uh, I didn't, I didn't need to fix anybody. Um, and, uh, and I also in the thing that makes that possible is the sense that we are actually created in, um, in the image of something holy and that makes us part holy and that we are able to give and receive love because of that. And so in real moments of questioning my faith, all of, you know, what happens with baptism like falls away and, you know, is, is my friend Tracy, who we're subsized as which is idolatry. Is that a big deal for me? Not really idolator Speaker 1 00:34:58 Guilty. Right, Speaker 0 00:34:59 Exactly. And, uh, and that's because, um, because God loves Tracy and is not that complicated. Um, and that is allowed me to be cross-cultural I think in ways that stymied me before I got my head around that, whereas like, I was like, okay, I'm supposed to like, get this person to do whatever. And, um, and I think a lot of that just relaxed into my job here is to care for this person and to love them. And it's not more, and that's challenging enough without introducing anything else. And once you introduce that, a lot of secondary issues start up, um, a lot of judgment, a lot of whose rights, you know, like, you know, um, so yeah, I've found a lot of power in the idea that we're supposed to love our neighbor. Speaker 1 00:35:45 Well, so it's really interesting to me, at least. And then I want to hear about two more times in your world, and that is, you made a comment to me after this whole Texas thing went down about, you know, this is, it's pulling you into directions, how you were raised and how you see the world, you know, and I just think that's the abortion. Speaker 0 00:36:12 Yeah, yeah. Right. Speaker 1 00:36:15 Yeah. You call it a travesty at all, because, you know, I think we kibitz to her a few minutes on it and then we had to go do something for the company or whatever. But like, that was an interesting comment to me that is relevant to this context. Speaker 0 00:36:30 Yeah. Um, and it goes back to systems thinking it goes back to privilege and it goes, you know, um, and I, you know, interestingly enough, I think what happened is I studied economics and, you know, economics became a secondary pillar for me about human behavior and what people actually believe versus what they say they believe. Um, and what, you know, everybody has faith. The question is what do they, what do they have faith in? And, um, you know, I, and so, yeah, I, I, I do think that it is a travesty. I don't, you know, I think abortion was a very complicated thing for me, uh, because I was raised just with such, such a strong mindset against it, and that was part of that world to come then over time, it just became much more complicated. And until, um, until, yeah, I just, I think that we, I don't think the issues are even the issues anymore. It's all symbol now. Speaker 1 00:37:36 Hmm. Yeah. I actually would agree with you on that two more times in your life, not letting you off the hook on this. Speaker 0 00:37:45 I really don't want to talk about this next one. Um, I'm kind of stalling out on it. Uh, what happened next for me in life? Cause I, I moved to, I kept asking him questions and, um, found an author that, that wrote about like the first author unmet that was, uh, the evangelical left. And actually the sky had started evangelicals for social action was part of very advanced, progressive thinking that came out in the sixties and then just kind of like, uh, uh, or in the eighties, sorry, and just kind of got stifled, um, for years and years. Um, and, uh, so I had the opportunity to go and learn from and be mentored by, um, by this guy. His name was John and he lived in the community in San Francisco. And so this Montana kid went to San Francisco for the summer, uh, in, was it 96. Speaker 0 00:38:46 And, um, I had sworn off dating for awhile. I was calling it, lack the Mac. So I was lacking the Mac. Um, and, uh, I was telling some people about that. And then, um, John's daughter came in and pulled one of them that they had phone call and I was like, oh, she's a really cute. Um, but then later I married her and that's my wife, Jenny, and, uh, really fell in love with that summer, um, and became very hard not to date. Um, so I, um, and I learned a lot from this community. This community was, um, I don't know how, I don't know how to put this into words, but I spent the next 13 years in this community learning about a way of doing life. That was an alternative to, uh, almost, you know, uh, to a lot of, a lot of the ways that we do life. Speaker 0 00:39:38 So, um, there were about 40 of us. We shared four houses. We shared meals together. Um, did not share wives for example, I was waiting for that juicy details, you know, where it goes. Yeah. I was like, these are the super juicy details that differentiate, you know? Oh yeah. You know, and in the, in the intentional community world, like, you know, the, it is a really interesting world, um, that combines high ideals and, uh, ways of living, um, living out your faith that are very genuine, uh, and pretty hardcore. Um, but not militant the way that a lot of, uh, some of the newer evangelical you think steel is that it was a lot more progressive. Um, and it comes down to the peace movement. So it was more saying like the, like the Quakers and the Anabaptists, if you're familiar, like getting it right. Speaker 0 00:40:35 Like they got it right with civil rights, they got it right with, you know, uh, with abolition, like there's a Stripe, it gets it right. And we all basically ignore them because they are out of alignment with most of our self-interests. So anyway, I, I lived at this community for, um, 13 years. Jenny's dad died early on, um, and he was the leader and then, uh, another guy died, um, who was the second layer and then it kind of just turned into animal farm. Uh, and I mean, I'm still like I'm, as I'm talking to you about this, uh, just so that, you know, where the kind of power that this community had, I'm like, so worried that people from that community would be listening in. And, um, and judge me for, you know, the story I'm about to tell here, because there was so much power, uh, in, in that community. Speaker 0 00:41:25 Um, and things got things gotten bad at that community for me in particular. Um, and they got so bad that eventually, um, I tried to take my life, um, and, uh, it w I would not classify it as a very serious attempt. Um, you know, I, I, I was going to jump off the golden gate bridge, um, and my therapist called me, um, and he could tell something was wrong, how school was going on and made me promise. I would call my wife and tell her, um, I think my therapist was really smart to know, not to call the police cause I would have been instantly arrested and it would have been really horrific. Um, but my wife, um, drove and picked me up. Um, and I think really saved my life and that's important because my wife and I have not had, like, we have not had a photogenic marriage, like we've really struggled. Speaker 0 00:42:29 Um, and I'm really proud of our marriage. Like we have a really good marriage, I think, but it was not easy. Um, and at the time of this happened, things were, things had been Rocky between us, um, largely because of this community. And, um, so, um, we, um, so that was a key moment in my life. Um, and I don't, I feel like I'm supposed to have some lessons from that. And, um, and I, I don't know that I do accept that I'm much more aware of how important, um, mental health is and how much belonging controls us in ways that we don't really even know or understand. Um, and how, um, weird it is that a community dedicated to caring for one another unintentionally created that much mental anguish for me, that that felt like the only way out. Um, so, um, that was, uh, that was a key moment. Number two, Speaker 1 00:43:41 I can only speak from my own experiences in this world, but having been also on that brink at one point in my life also related to the golden gate bridge, what I can say is for me, at least there was a feeling of like how absolute and perfect calm, like this is the most rational thing to do, given all the options that we've weighed. We have thought this through again and again, and now I'm completely at peace and now I am completely calm and okay, with this decision, was it, was it kind of like that for you as well? Speaker 0 00:44:25 Oh, that is, uh, yeah, that's surprisingly accurate. Um, I, I think for both you and I, we love like there's nothing better than having a problem to solve. Like yeah, just that's right. And I think for about three years, there had been an unsolvable problem with this community. And one morning in a meeting, it hit me that this was the solution. And a lot of the problem was people in this community didn't believe things were as bad for me as they were. And what I realized is they would, they would either get it or I would be gone and it wouldn't matter. Speaker 0 00:45:18 Aye. Aye. Looking back like that is just insanity. Like looking back now. I w I, it just makes no sense, but exactly what you're saying. Like, what I realized is I didn't even need to be like, I'm scared of that process. I just needed 30, 30 seconds of bravery to get up over the edge of a bridge. Cause all it would take to solve that. And I was like, I could muster, I can muster 30 seconds of overcoming that fear. Um, and it became an instant solution and yeah, it became, um, it just, it was a way out and it felt, and that felt like such a relief, uh, that actually I walked, um, across San Francisco and got to golden gate park. Um, and I used to play in the drum circle pretty frequently. And so I know the one. Sure. Yeah. Um, and so I, and I, I learned, uh, Jim bay and other hand drums there and with that group, um, so I stayed, I stayed there for a couple of hours and drums. Speaker 0 00:46:25 Um, and, um, I think that actually saved my life because, uh, it bought me time for when my purpose ended up calling. So yeah, it was, uh, there was a very clear, like calm, like, okay, I know what I'm doing and that, it just still feels so weird, but that just felt like had been so long without a way forward that that just felt right. Yeah. It's like profoundly relieving. You're like, oh my God, I hit on the solution. And it's so simple. Exactly. Yeah. It's immediate. I can handle it. I can have this done today. It's like removed from the equation and the problem goes away. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I grew up thinking that suicide was, um, a really selfish act like, um, you know, Montana, I would just say is not a bastion of mental health. Progressive. I did not know that I was, uh, that I had chronic, um, depression, you know, until I was well into my twenties and I had to figure out insomnia and add, um, on, you know, on my own and my thirties. And so, you know, um, yeah, I just didn't have a lot of those early tools to assess any of that. Um, Speaker 1 00:47:45 With those challenges is having the language to describe the challenge. Speaker 0 00:47:51 Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. And I feel like what happened from that experience is I B one of the outcomes was that I moved away from the community. Right. Um, so a couple months later, Jenny and I moved back to postman. Um, but another outcome is that I got really empathetic, uh, about, about people's like life choices, like, Hey, like I'd probably do that too. Um, then just as I would think about what people were up against, it just became more and more clear, like life is hard and the choices people make, um, probably make sense to them and facing the same options set with low energy. And, you know, um, you know, if I were in that, that context, I would probably choose something similar. And, um, I, I think, I think that set me up to be a different to view life a different way. Um, you met me like, I think a year and a half after that or something. Um, and, and I think that, that, that had really shifted who I was and how I experienced it. You also met me when I was at peak PTSD around San Francisco. So going to San Francisco triggered all sorts of PTSD for me, um, for years in the Salesforce ecosystem, you know, kind of <inaudible>. Speaker 0 00:49:31 And so, um, I was there a lot and it was constantly triggering all this stuff for me. Um, and, uh, so yeah, you, you gotta be in San Francisco, like soon after that. And it was very, very challenging for me to be in San Francisco. So I had to talk about it, like, it was all sitting in shame about this, like being in a community that had treated me like this for years, and that I'd been a part of for so long and still, you know, like had all come all sorts of complicated feelings around that. Um, and then PTSD that turned me into a rageaholic for a couple of years. Um, and, um, so yeah, just, yeah, very challenging. Anger and PTSD Speaker 1 00:50:16 Are kind of hand in glove, Speaker 0 00:50:18 Right? Yeah. Yep. Yeah. They were for me now, they work for me. Um, so yeah, that was really, that was, um, that was a pivotal time for me. And now it matters really because, um, at the time, like just, of course, you know, you just start layering things in, um, at the time one of the, um, one of the participants was, um, part, part of now it matters, uh, and part of the community and that, you know, just create, uh, other issues for me as well. And, uh, eventually my therapist was like, Tim, you need to understand the cognitive dissonance. You're trying to hold where people like in one pod text me one thing in another context means something else. Like it's become so extreme for you that this is where people split their personality in order to deal with it. And she was like, I feel like you're slipping. Speaker 0 00:51:11 And I think like, you need to take it seriously, but that like, your, your mind can only handle so much dissonance before it has to solve it itself. And that was, that was the very real, like a call that was after, after my attempted. And that's the one. So, and I, and we did not immediately decide, like we did not decide to move after that immediately. Like we S we were like, maybe we can still make this work. Like, just crazy. Um, looking back on it now. So, um, two of my favorite words, cognitive dissonance. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. I was going to say moment number three. What was that? Speaker 0 00:52:01 Um, I think moment number two was key because I came out of that with a life and almost in half on, um, what next? Yeah, right. Like there are all of these moments in time that are so meaningful that I feel like I should be picking, but, um, so like the first time I held my daughter, um, you know, and felt like, oh, I'm a dad. Um, first time I held my son, um, you know, there, you know, when I got married, um, but, um, uh, a thing happened, um, I think, uh, just a couple of years ago, um, where, you know, you and I had become friends, I had worked at now at matters and really had been wanting to learn, um, you know, at the time we had cloud T and T, which is a podcast where we basically did that, got introduced to like lesbians who code and was like really uncomfortable and figuring my way forward in that and like, you know, pronouns and figuring that out. Speaker 0 00:53:10 Like, it was just kind of like the white guy gets schooled every, every week with you and Joanie and the deaths. Um, and so, you know, um, uh, it, I had had some preparation and my daughter had come out, um, in junior high. Um, and like, I actually was ready for that because of it. Um, and you know, all my, all of the leaders in my company, um, we're almost all over women at the time. Then one day Alex Siena, I was like, thanks. Something progressive about something you're out of there, you know, and Alex and I was like, well, you're sexist. And I was like, no, um, no, like, let's be clear here. I'm a white guy. That's like figuring out how to not be the isms. And I'm an ally and I've got a sticker to prove it from Salesforce and gave it to me. Um, and so I was about to go into full defensive mode. And in the back of my mind, something just said, shut up, which I listened to. Cause I get that all the time and you and I just blow right past the shut up light is on, but whatever, who cares, you know, the cameras, it's just the shut-up light. It's like always on right. Always on what does that mean? Speaker 0 00:54:32 But for once I was like, okay, I'm gonna, I like that long enough to be like, okay, this is probably not the right time to be defensive. And this is your daughter who is like figuring herself out. Um, and so I like didn't say what I was going to say about how I am not sexist. And instead said, tell me more about that. And, um, and she did, um, and none of it really felt like it stuck, you know, like, oh, I think she's wrong, but then, um, but I couldn't escape that comment. And I was like, if someone would know it's my daughter, right. Like who else is going to tell me this? Um, and so I just started, like, I started with the assumption that she was right. Like okay. Um, and, and the more I thought about it, the more I was like, well, how would I not be sexist? Speaker 0 00:55:30 I'm a white guy. Like, and for that matter, how would I not be racist? And also how would I not be homophobic? And the more I thought about that, the more I was like, how would I not be any, like all of the isms? Like how, how would I not like, um, and it was a conversion experience that was every bit as profound to me as the conversion experience of faith, uh, to be a Christian was for me, um, where it, you know, which is supposed to include, I'm really screwed up and there's nothing I can do about it. Um, and like acceptance of that. And, you know, grace that comes from that, um, should have prepared all of us, evangelical Christians for a moment of reckoning, like, okay, of course we're screwed up. And of course we are, you know, um, but I had not really, I just had not had to think about that that way until my daughter said that. Speaker 0 00:56:31 Um, and so for the next, I'd say for the next few years, and still now today, um, I engaged the conversation around that with the assumption that I was probably in that, that did not disqualify me as a legitimate human worthy of care and food. And, um, and that, that really shifted my view of me as like, I'm not the good guy here. Like, um, like I'm not like I'm not the good guy, um, any more than I'm the bad guy. Right. But you're not the bad guy either. You're, you're just exactly right. And I'm a guy that grew up a certain way. And with a lot of privilege in the more, the more I started to get my head around and I had a lot of conversations with Shauna Hughes about this. Um, and, and, you know, um, especially like growing up poor, but privileged. Speaker 0 00:57:28 Um, you know, I remember having general Rachana use in, ran out and at one time and laughing so hard about car stories, where Shauna was telling me about car breakdown stories. And I was telling her about car break down stories. And when we got to where we got to the story where Shauna had like a family member that had tied strings to the end of the windshield wipers innovating store, then it was like pulling the wipers from side to side in the middle of this restaurant, we were laughing so hard. Like people were starting. It was, it was amazing. Um, so I, I, I realized like, um, there was an inescapable piece of privilege to me that I just needed to understand and accept and be okay with. Um, and, or I was never gonna, or I was always gonna live in defensive mode. Like, no, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm not sexist. Speaker 0 00:58:19 Um, and everything changed when I just started saying, yeah, I probably am sexist. And yeah, I'm, I'm, I know I'm homophobic. I mean, I try not to be in my daughter's gay. And, um, and yet, like, there are traces of that in my background, but just make that challenging. I would say a lot of that stated, I don't think it'll ever go away, you know? Um, and, and I also feel like, remember, um, we had Optima one time and, uh, on cloud TMT and Ashman said, the reason that justice works is that people have lifespans and based. Speaker 0 00:58:55 It's just like, that's right. So that is such a crazy different view of justice. Um, so I w I would say that was a key moment for me was just coming face to face with privilege, accepting it and realizing, wow, I like I've accepted that. I'm some, I, I, I am sexist and that like, hasn't broken me or my sense that I'm still an okay human. Um, and that, and I didn't, I'm not complacent about that. I, you know, started looking at what, what I could do as a leader and how I can use my privilege on behalf of others, but it all started with that privilege. And I remember relating to economics com and thinking, um, an asset is something that you own, and it's something that you can do something with. So if you want privilege to be an asset that you can use on behalf of others, you want to view it as an asset. Speaker 0 00:59:51 That is a way that you can help other people, then you have to own it. And that ownership has to like, literally be like, this is my privilege. And so I can do something with it. And the more that you pretend you don't have it, the less accessible it is, you intentionally keep an invisible and that can never be used on behalf of others. And I don't think I do that well at it, but it is, um, it is important to me and DUIs are a real thing, um, for me. And, um, so, and you've been around for a lot of that journey. You've seen that then. Speaker 1 01:00:30 Well, what I also think is fascinating is that this connects to some of the contemporary, you know, cultural war stuff, right? Like I swear there is somewhere in, in, in the left and I haven't found who it is yet, but there's like an anti PR machine, because what you are talking about is the foundation of what is called critical race theory, right? It's the idea that we examine our privilege as it relates to others. And we understand how that references itself on many different lines, notably raised in ethnicity because of the history of this country and what all of that represents. But the way that it gets picked up and talked about is not how you described it, right? It's like defund the police. Again, this is not about, you know, taking money away. This is about changing priority and putting the right resources in the right places, picking up, you know, with privilege okay. Where we have to move to other fun topics. Speaker 0 01:01:41 One thing to say about that really quickly is a, a serious frustration that I have. So I think it's interesting. You look at the left, I look at the right, um, cause that's, my people come from Speaker 1 01:01:51 The left is my people. It's where I come from this. Right, right. Speaker 0 01:01:54 And it should be so simple. Like we have all of the apparatus to just be like, Hey, Hey, like if you identify as a Christian, then it means that you're like already good with the idea that you're not perfect. So how, like how can this be that big of a struggle to recognize that you probably have, like you're embedded in these systems that create kind of a background for you. Um, but, uh, so, um, yeah. Um, cause Speaker 1 01:02:24 It's ego. Speaker 0 01:02:28 Yeah. The thing that's so weird is that until like there, like I experienced a high amount of freedom around privilege. I don't feel embarrassed about it. I don't feel guilty about it. I don't like, um, it, from that moment, the thing that changed for me is that it was the path to acceptance and then freedom, which is, which has made it really easy to have these conversations for me in a way like we, when we interviewed, um, Dwayne, for example, or drought Booker. Um, they, I just don't struggle with a lot the way I used to, um, because it's so much more freeing to just be like, yeah, well, I'm, you know, I'm a work in progress. I just, it's so frustrating to watch that and just be like, look, you can't, you can't sidestep the part where you're like, I'm part of the problem here. So I want to change be part of the solution. So anyway, um, yeah. Speaker 1 01:03:24 All right. So really we have one big question and then a bunch of whitening arounds, uh, any, what would, if you had one do-over would you use it and what would you use it on? Speaker 0 01:03:45 That's such a chain of events question, right? Like, Speaker 1 01:03:50 I mean, this is multi-verse stuff. Speaker 0 01:03:52 Yeah. Right. No, no, I, I wouldn't, I don't think there's anything. No. Speaker 1 01:03:57 And just go back and do, cause you wouldn't be where you are now, if you did. Speaker 0 01:04:02 Yeah. I thought about the, uh, the other side of that, of where I would be otherwise. And there's a, I think sometimes about if I hadn't met Joseph, that is a, like, I want to make sure I would never do is not meet Joseph. Cause it really swung me in a different direction. And I think, um, like I was heading towards politics and you know, I think that I would be a white politician Speaker 1 01:04:31 From Montana Speaker 0 01:04:32 Brokering power in evangelical like patriotic. Yeah. I think that, Speaker 1 01:04:39 Yeah, you'd be kinda like the Liz Cheney of Montana, I think, you know. Speaker 0 01:04:46 Okay. Speaker 1 01:04:47 Well, I mean, you know, DC's a weird placement. Speaker 0 01:04:51 That's true. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:04:52 It's funny. I always think of like, because I'm a nerd, there was this great story arc in the DC universe called flashpoint and like, you know, the flash suffered with like the death of his father or something like that way on early in his childhood. And when he finally figures out how to time-travel, he goes back and stops his father from being killed. And that just like screws, everything up, everything like so many things. Right. So like that's always like my referentials framework. And I was like, no, I don't, I don't want to do that. You know? All right. Where would you be if you weren't here now? What would you be doing? Speaker 0 01:05:38 Yeah, I mean, I, I do think, um, I think that there's a good chance that I could, I could have gone into politics probably right-wing um, with a really strong, really strong faith that I think now would have been misguided. Um, so, uh, yeah, I think, I think that's a real possibility, um, of, of where it could have been. Um, Speaker 1 01:06:03 I do call you the mayor of Bozeman, even if you're not. Cause you know, everybody there, Speaker 0 01:06:09 I don't, my family does. I feel like, uh, you know, but yes, the lackeys, Speaker 1 01:06:19 Where else, anywhere else or just politics, Speaker 0 01:06:21 You know, uh, politics probably. Um, I was really aimed at being a missionary and did a lot of missionary work and the kind of work that we did. Like we looked at Jenny and I looked at moving into, uh, uh, Barrio in Venezuela. Um, and like I remember we were there, um, with the family and we were thinking about moving into this neighborhood and it was late at night cause everything happens late there and that is a very fault, very fun culture. Um, and uh, I remember looking over and some guy was running down the street, chasing another guy with a knife and that wasn't that uncommon. So, um, so we, we did think about that for awhile. Um, I think, uh, some people counseled us against that. I think that was probably good. You got to know what you're up for and Jenny and I were not up for Speaker 1 01:07:09 That. Uh, not up for the late night night. Yeah, Speaker 0 01:07:12 Exactly. Well, and then since then, I mean just the, the best that, um, that Venezuela's and um, I think there are a lot of scenarios in which, um, our marriage wouldn't have made it honestly. Um, so I'm very glad that I am happily married, um, and hope my wife is as well. Um, and there, you know, there was, uh, there, yeah. I mean, we've been married 22 years and marriage has really formed a lot of who I am. Um, and, um, so there are a lot of scenarios in which I didn't own a business. Um, didn't didn't work. I think it's like for anybody that knew me when I was younger, the fact that I'm a CEO is just very odd. Like that is, that is not what people saw coming. Uh, I'll say that. So, um, yeah, I think those are some of the places I've been, I don't know if you know, I was at Wrangler for one summer. So Speaker 1 01:08:13 Before that, Speaker 0 01:08:14 That was, that was no way Speaker 1 01:08:15 You wouldn't go out on a ranch. Would you? Speaker 0 01:08:19 Uh, I mean, I come from a long family of ranchers and there's part of that. That's kind of appealing to me. Um, and so yeah, I, um, I wanted to be a speaker writer, author, and then felt like, you know, what, helping nonprofits with data is actually my, my gig. So yeah, those are some of the, Speaker 1 01:08:41 Let me see here, I think we have lightning round, uh, for you God, what would, what would, what would even be all right? Let's do the easy ones. Favorite color blue. Yeah. I figured you were a blue person. Yep. Favorite movie, Speaker 0 01:09:01 Casa Blanca Spaceballs or galaxy quest, Speaker 1 01:09:06 Galaxy quest, widely acknowledged as the best star Trek movie ever made. Absolutely. I was kind of hoping, you'd say condor man though. Speaker 0 01:09:15 No, not although I keep, like my kids know, like it's so much that they keep forcing other people to watch it. Okay. So a kinder man had a budget of 14 million and it like lost 9.5 million. Like it was like, so, or maybe it, maybe it was only five. I can't remember, but it was a lot like it was a big loss. Speaker 1 01:09:39 So basically clan Lockie is essentially supporting all the royalties on that. Speaker 0 01:09:44 Yeah. At this point, like we're the only ones searching Disney plus for condo. And so, Speaker 1 01:09:50 Yeah. Do you know there were different versions of that film? Like there's different edits, there's a couple of different edits with very mild differences. Yeah. You have to, I forget where I discovered this, but there's, it's not substantative but there are a couple of Speaker 0 01:10:07 Like, Speaker 1 01:10:08 Cause you were like, let's watch this crazy movie and I was like researched it. Yeah. And there's actually somewhere else in either the DC or one of the properties. It's not DC obviously, because if Disney owns it, but there is some weird out to contour man in, in other Disney properties. Yeah. No way. Yeah. I can't remember what it was, but it was like, I went down the Commodore man rabbit hole for about 45 minutes and then I was like, okay, we're done. We can't go down this rabbit hole, you know, Speaker 0 01:10:41 The least efficient, like defection in cold war history. Like absolutely no explanation for any of the craziness that was just like, let's get one person out of a country. This could be easy, but no, like, Speaker 1 01:10:59 You know, the equivalent is like, we're going to give you a tricycle, a rocket launcher, a scuba mask and a hot air balloon and good luck. Right. And you're like, but none of that fits together. None of, none Speaker 0 01:11:13 Of that needs to happen. So, Speaker 1 01:11:17 Um, all right. What makes you happy? Speaker 0 01:11:20 Um, talking, talking with people and it makes me genuinely happy. I just, one of the reasons I like why it matters so much. Um, yeah. Speaker 1 01:11:32 Yep. What makes you sad? Speaker 0 01:11:34 What's happening in Afghanistan? Can not, uh, I, I did, I did some studies on Afghanistan, pre Taliban. Well, no pre nine 11. Um, and, um, has just been really fun to watch. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:11:52 Favorite baked. Good. Speaker 0 01:11:55 Uh, wow. Donuts. Yeah, really? Yeah. I just love Dennis. Speaker 1 01:12:03 Do you have like any particular brand or is it just all Speaker 0 01:12:09 And even like, it's not even the good stuff. I'm like, you know, those little, you know, Danette's that you get at like gas stations, like, oh my God. Oh yeah, no, no, no. I'm like, you know what? Trash donuts I'm up for that in San Francisco? Like they had like these like balsamic vinegar with crumble, whatever donuts. I'm like, no, that is not a donut. I don't know what that is. It's like weird. I just like hand me a glaze. Okay. And then Krispy Kremes his whole like next level. Speaker 1 01:12:39 Yeah. No. They're giving out free donuts to vaccinated people all month. Like the whole everywhere, everywhere. Krispy Kreme has a store. So you go to the store and you're like, here's my fully vaccinated card. And they're like, congratulations, here's your donut. You can come back tomorrow and do the same thing right away. Yeah. Speaker 0 01:13:03 Yeah. It's a good thing. They're not any Krispy. Kremes within five hours, Speaker 1 01:13:07 There was a Simpsons Treehouse or horror. Do you remember this one where Homer Homer was like in hell and the, and the, and like they dragged him into a room and there was like one of these little demons. He was like, you're going to do nothing but eat. And he's like, no, no, no. And it cuts to like six hours later and Homer's six times the size that he was and he's still eating donuts. And the, and the, and like the team is just like totally perplexed. You know, Speaker 0 01:13:35 I'm supposed to hate this by now. Speaker 1 01:13:39 Um, yeah, no, that's how I feel about pizza though. Really? I get it like, oh yeah. New York pizza is a very specific thing. Chicago pizza is a very specific thing. And what we have done with pizza out here on the west coast is a very specific kind of personal horror. You know, it really is. Speaker 0 01:13:59 And actually go to Italy, which you did recently. You have pizza there. It's just like, there's no comment back. No, no, it's it ruined. Speaker 1 01:14:07 Yeah. I'm ruined. It was good. Totally. Uh, Speaker 0 01:14:11 All right. Any, any parting thoughts for our guests? No, thanks. Uh, it's, it's genuinely interesting to rethread some of the pieces of my life, or you just don't go back into the store rooms and check those things out all the time and you know, it's good to remember why you are, who you are. Um, and it's also, I'm really glad to have talked with you about your life as well. Uh, in, in the other interview is just, there's just so much that goes into who he becomes and, um, and it's all just, you just don't know. It's just so hidden. Why do we do what we do? Why is this even a priority? Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks Tim. Thank you Tim. Lucky. Speaker 2 01:15:01 I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack and you've been listening to why it matters. Speaker 0 01:15:06 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters the strategic services from offering, advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations. Speaker 2 01:15:15 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.