Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Welcome everyone. Welcome kind viewers to the matching gray sweat shirt crew this week. A great sweatshirts. Great sweatshirts, Tim. You're just ingrained
Speaker 1 00:00:18 Stretch and it doesn't have a hoodie. I'm just going to go with it because it is gray.
Speaker 2 00:00:24 No, you're showing your tech chops if you're not actually wearing the hoodie.
Speaker 0 00:00:28 Yeah. I don't know Tim. I don't trust you now.
Speaker 1 00:00:31 I know I really should go get one on,
Speaker 0 00:00:34 We are joined this time, uh, from, with Eric Arnold, from Microsoft tech for social impact. Hey Eric, I will let you introduce yourself, uh, and preface this by saying we're recording on election day. So that's the, that's the giant elephant in the room, but I've been
Speaker 1 00:00:55 This day is just like, that's an unknown, what will we be releasing this into? What will that world look like
Speaker 2 00:01:04 Completely and totally focused on this conversation?
Speaker 0 00:01:07 I've been looking forward to it all day. This is like the best thing for me all day. Yep.
Speaker 2 00:01:13 I need something to pass the time and keep me away from social media. So this is great.
Speaker 0 00:01:18 So take it away. Eric, tell us about you and your background and Microsoft tech for social impact.
Speaker 2 00:01:25 Yeah, so, um, so I was band president in high school and, um, so, uh, my background, I have over 25 years in technology and a variety of different roles, I spent a whole bunch of time at a privately held, uh, bill gates company. He has a passion for, uh, uh, photography, iconic historic photography in particular, and started a photo agency around that. So in a built my, my technical chops working up the ranks, um, at there, um, from startup to, to larger company and, um, towards the end of that run
Speaker 1 00:02:04 Bill gates, photography company. Yeah. Ansell Adams, but bill gates, I would not have seen that coming. Okay, cool. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:02:14 Yeah. Uh, uh, ended up being called Corbus, started out as interactive home systems and then continuum and Corvallis and part of it's spun off to become Microsoft media. Yeah, it's it was good times, um, towards the, towards the end of that run. Um, it was the early, early two thousands. Um, Salesforce was, was relatively new and cloud was relatively new and I was really observing that the digital divide first appear and then really expand, um, uh, around cloud and leading nonprofits, um, uh, in the dust. So I left that organization, left the private sector, joined the public sector, um, and became, uh, path's first chief information officer path as a global health non-profit, um, that works across 70 different countries to improve health security for, uh, women and children primarily, but does a lot around medical device, technology, vaccine development, vaccine delivery, um, in a lot of public private partnerships and then also, um, focused on, uh, digital health and, um, working with governments and developing digital health plans and, uh, simultaneously working on taking path through various iterations of digital transformation internally inside the company, while also, um, working with the team that was building out the digital health program during those years, um, was a, uh, member and board member of net hope, um, a consortium of some of the largest international nonprofits on the planet.
Speaker 2 00:03:45 Um, working on how to collaborate on the implementation implementation of digital technology, um, served on the technical advisory board for salesforce.org when it was first formed box.org, um, have worked with the CSR programs with Okta Splunk, DocuSign and Tableau. Um, also worked very closely with Microsoft. I am incredibly passionate about the intersection of digital technology, the private sector and nonprofit. Um, and during those years I talked a lot about how, um, the equation really needed to change, um, on the, the for-profit side while traditional CSR is great, um, and leading in and doing a little bit of volunteering and, and some donations, um, is absolutely appreciated and a hundred percent needed what is needed even more is dedication, um, to durable technology that that lasts beyond just an individual volunteer engagement or an individual grant, um, corporate givers give differently and will always give differently than, than traditional funders.
Speaker 2 00:04:53 And, um, to really make it work on the private sector, you need to encourage and model sustainable business practices on the nonprofit side, particularly for cloud where running those solutions in the cloud, isn't free, shrink, wrapped software is pennies on the dollar cloud software is not, there is a cost to running cloud on the nonprofit side. Um, get over the expectation of free. Not everything can be free if you really want scalable, um, uh, engagement with the private sector. Um, there is a cost and, um, you know, make sure that cost is fair and, uh, ethical and affordable, um, but work in partnership with the private sector to, to develop that. So apparently said that enough times that when Microsoft formed a new team, um, called tech for social impact inside Microsoft philanthropies, um, they asked me to come over and be the chief technology officer.
Speaker 2 00:05:49 So my role today really long way of actually getting to who I am is I'm the CTO for a team in Microsoft to tech for social impact. We focus on working with nonprofits and United nations organizations, um, and do a few things. Um, first of all, nonprofit is a priority industry for Microsoft, just like any other, um, priority industry, like financial services or manufacturing or healthcare, education automotive, et cetera. Um, we consider, um, nonprofit right up there at the top and make, make investments around it. Um, I lead an engineering team. Um, we develop purpose-built, uh, product, um, for the nonprofit sector. Um, I also lead our digital enablement team. And so we focus very much not just on the technology itself, but also all the capacity building non-profits need to be successful in using technology that includes advisory services around digital transformation. How do you think about your mission using digital technology?
Speaker 2 00:06:49 Have you built that right? Vision and culture and, uh, support from leadership? Um, what are the right opportunities to bring digital technology into the organization, be it operations or mission first, um, and then, and only then think about which technology and make a decision on a platform on, on the tech itself. Um, so we have skilling programs, digital enablement programs, um, uh, deeply discounted, um, software pricing, free software, and then purpose-built technology. And we combine all of that into this team, um, to engage with nonprofits around the world. Um, this last fiscal year, we worked with about 200,000, um, organizations across the planet. And Microsoft philanthropies itself is very quietly. Um, one of the largest corporate philanthropies out there. Um, last year for the first time we crossed the $2 billion threshold in software cash and services donated by the company at our employees, um, across about 240,000 non-profits globally.
Speaker 0 00:07:45 Wow. 2 billion.
Speaker 2 00:07:47 Yeah. Crazy, right. Yeah, big number. I was thinking it's been over a billion for awhile, but this last year was, was 2 billion, which is just amazing to think about.
Speaker 0 00:07:56 I was thinking he was here talking Tracy Crohn's Zack from 10 or 15 years ago would have been like, no, all software for nonprofits must be free. And now I'm like, no, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Now we, now we do this a different way than, than, than that way. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:08:16 Yeah. And it's, and it's not to say, you know, pay commercial pricing. It's not to say, you know, you need to invest in it a lot of, um, procurement chops and, and, you know, beat people up on pricing, like make, make the private sector, um, do the work for you to create those standard discounts, you know, find, find business models, you know, for shareholder led organizations find business models that the shareholders won't rebel against that allow you to continue this model. And so the way we run it in Microsoft is we run tech for social impact, essentially revenue neutral. Um, so anything that that we make with the sector gets invested back into the sector. Um, and you know, our big goal is we don't kind of want to go too far into the bread and our investments. We have to make sure that, you know, everything that we're doing is balancing out.
Speaker 0 00:09:03 Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Is that what
Speaker 1 00:09:05 You mean when you talk about ethical pricing? I don't think I've encountered ethical pricing before, and I really intrigued by that economists at those two words often do not end up in the same sentence. So, uh, I, I think it's, I think that's really fascinating. Uh, so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2 00:09:21 Yeah. And so the, the way, the way I define that, right, is, you know, with cloud, there is a cost to running cloud software and, um, we to, to create a sustainable business model, you need, um, some small amount of margin on top of that price that feel, you know, my own salary or innovation budget or grants and things like that. And so that's what I mean by ethical pricing, you know, get it as close to, to revenue neutral as you can, but you also have to pay for the business where, you know, we're overhead for Microsoft, right. So, you know, we have to cover that cost.
Speaker 1 00:09:55 You also said that, um, this is a, this is a priority industry. I know that would be for TSI because I've met your team guys. They're very earnest and care about the world, making it better. How high does that go? Um, does that, does that across the organization or just for your team?
Speaker 2 00:10:13 Uh, it is across the organization and, and really from, from Satya on down and we incorporate it in, you know, one of the things that I was impressed by coming, coming into my ProSoft is, um, it really is part of our, uh, part of our DNA. Um, we, we, um, our, our employees donate hundreds of thousands of hours every year. We have over 70% participation in employee giving every year. Um, and we, um, focus on, you know, not just that, that, that CSR component, but really how do we incorporate it into how we think about our contribution to the planet from all the sustainability goals that you may have seen us talk about over the last few months, we're going to be, um, a water neutral carbon negative, um, we're making big investments. And, and for us, that also means the partners we've worked with and wanting those partners to be sustainable. It means when we develop technologies and think about how we engage, that we don't leave any people behind it, um, including vulnerable populations or people that don't have the economic opportunity that many people have in the global north. And so how do we build that into our, our systems thinking on, on solutions that work in occasionally connected network environments or that when we're we're, um, uh, building new technologies, we build those technologies with organizations that have social, social impact missions. So it, you know, it, it is really pervasive throughout the organization.
Speaker 0 00:11:45 It's been, I mean, just from my own observation, you know, and all of our conversations, two things really kind of stick in my head. One is, you know, that commitment to, you know, being self-aware about how big of a company Microsoft really is. You know, I think something that you said to me along the way at one point or another, was like, we're a huge fish. So, you know, when we move we've by virtue of the fact that we're ginormous, we create enormous impact. So everything we do before we move has to be thought through from top to bottom in a much more holistic manner. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:12:28 Um, and we have, you know, the way I talk about it, we have a certain gravitational pole as Microsoft, and that's good and bad, and we can talk about some of the good ways cause I think we can, we can sometimes bring people to the table and get conversations started that have been traditionally difficult to get started in the sector or traditionally difficult to finish. Maybe it's a better way to say it, but, you know, we, we think about, um, you know, uh, as Microsoft in how we do our work, we think about it in the context of four societal pillars around trust, fundamental rights, inclusive, economic growth, and sustainability. And, and that kind of goes into really anything we do, I'm privileged. And then I work in tech for social impact, um, you know, because we're kind of the team that is going deep with the mission based organizations.
Speaker 2 00:13:18 Um, and as part of Microsoft philanthropies, we have a few SDG goals that Microsoft thinks humbly it can help move the needle on, but really we're here to serve the missions of the organizations we support. And I know that that, um, um, that we, we have, um, a reputation that we hopefully have overcome by now. Um, but, but sometimes still have to overcome on, you know, that we haven't been the best partner. We haven't been the easiest organization to work with. And, and that's really changed over the last six or seven years in, in how the company has, um, worked much more transparently, worked in, um, uh, open source models worked, um, uh, in open data partnerships worked, um, to really make sure that as a platform company, our platforms are one of a number of other platforms. And how can we work together to exponentially increase the availability of relevant digital technology, particularly in, in this industry?
Speaker 0 00:14:21 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it's actually a good segue into one of the topics that I think Tim and I previewed that we really want to talk about. Uh, and that's all this terminology around data and data models and creation by the way, because obviously one of the things that was created out of all of this was the common data models. So I, I, I created a prop because we're going to be releasing this before Thanksgiving, and this is we're going to talk Turkey on the term data models. Uh, so that's my Turkey with their data model thing. And, and I think, eh, it's one thing for, for somebody like myself or Tim to kind of talk about it in, in the world, but, you know, there's all this terminology that's suddenly coming to surface for the every day person in, in, in a nonprofit, as a leader or as a staff member, data model, industry standard data model, common data model. Like how do you parse those out? And the meanings of those in a way that folks every day can kind of digest and understand when they're hearing them, oh, this is what that means for me and my organization. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:15:39 Yeah. So if you think about, you know, there've been a lot of, um, uh, really successful, impactful, um, technology companies playing in the sector for decades and, um, have developed over that time, um, industry standard models that work for their platforms. Um, and if you buy into that platform, um, you get a lot of value out of that, how I think about it and what I was missing when I was in the sector is if I, as a nonprofit, want to make the choice of an application from platform a and an application from platform B and an application from platform C, I ended up having to be the one that has to stitch all of that together. Like why, um, if you think about, you know, some of the most common processes around program design program delivery, the traceability of funds, fundraising, the different kinds of, of fundraising, um, micro calculation, um, uh, you know, revenue recognition off milestone payments, ceilings, like all this stuff that is unique to the nonprofit sector, doesn't fit a commercial CRM or a commercial ERP, right.
Speaker 2 00:16:53 But, you know, there's a, there's a narrower gap. Um, in some other industries to, to get from where these generic CRM models have been to where the industries need them to be, and frankly, more investment, um, to help those industries get to, um, some, some common standards, nonprofit, it's a tax code. Um, there are many different kinds of industries inside nonprofit. I named some of the things that nonprofits do in common. They all fundraise, they all deliver some sort of services, but a child sponsorship organization is going to have specific needs that are very different than a conservation organization. And what level of can platform companies make investments are going to have to make choices about where they go deep and where they are going to, um, uh, uh, stay at a common layer. And so for me, the, the importance of making that shift from a industry standard data model to a data model is that common data model is the Rosetta stone across the platforms that enables me as a nonprofit, you as a nonprofit, to be able to have a mapping for yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:02 A mapping across, um, solutions. And so, um, you, you now have better choice of which applications to bring into your environment and how can you aggregate the data across those applications so that you can find the right programmatic insights, or you can find the donor propensity and design more personalized campaigns. You know, all of that, you know, is what gets unlocked. If, if we agree as platform companies to stop disagreeing at that data layer, you know, let's compete and push and, and build innovation at the, at the app layer all day long, but let's at least agree that, you know, under that substrate, we're going to make it easier for nonprofits to, to align. And so that's what we chose to do. That's how we started the work, um, in tech for social impact back in 2017, um, working, uh, with a, uh, cross sector group of folks from, uh, nonprofits big and small from some private foundations, private foundations serving, um, uh, you know, very large private foundations, serving lots of different kinds of organizations to very hyper-local, um, foundations that were working at that local community level.
Speaker 2 00:19:14 We were working with institutional donors, um, that were, um, bringing that, that, uh, IGO lens, that government lens in, in, into the conversation and working across other tech sector partners to find where, first of all, where do we want to start? And we didn't necessarily want to start with CRM and shoehorn a commercial CRM data model into a, you know, let's relabel it and call it a, uh, uh, industry common data model. We wanted to start with what nonprofits really did, which is program delivery. Let's start in that program. Delivery is the center, and then work our way out, work our way upstream into fundraising and from fundraising into donor and donor engagement and from, um, uh, from there into, um, uh, compliance, um, and into measurement, um, monitoring evaluation. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:02 At the end of that work, Eric, I mean, blown away that that's where he started. Thank you for starting there. Um, how much of that you used the word Rosetta stone, how much of the difference in the sector is actually at the data layer versus how much of it is just the language, you know, um, that we use fundraising instead of sales, you know, and we use, you know, resourcing and program management instead of ER, ERP is terrible example, but you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 00:20:33 Yeah. It's a great question. And, and this is, um, this will probably lead into a conversation about what is, you know, what is common and what is Microsoft and, and what's the join the, um, so to give you a sense, we chose as a company that we would take, um, our dynamics 365, um, sales, our, our CRM data model and publish it open source, just that whole thing. And then from there, we would create specific industry models. Um, and the, the work that we have to do there a is how are we making sure, particularly in the nonprofit space where we don't have a lot of standards to align to, we aligned to Ayati. Um, we looked at Hexall, we have the STGs, we've got a few things that are out there that, that we can work towards. Um, we started with the NGO reference model and from there kind of worked our way in.
Speaker 2 00:21:31 And then, um, as, as, um, you know, in working with the team that is actually doing the industry modeling, then how do we take that back and look at what's the difference between a relabeling? And what's the difference between creating that new entities and attributes? Um, where, where do we recommend, you know, if we have a standard CRM model, here's like, we don't have to create address. We don't have to create name, you know, but all a bunch of that stuff kind of comes along and any CRM solution is going to have their version of that. So the join is the uniqueness for the sector. And so for us, the CDM, the common data model, um, it is, uh, about 95 or so, um, uh, different entities and about 1600 1700 attributes off those entities and the relationships between them that make up the non-profit specific, unique data fields that aren't just relabeling, but kind of represent net new uniqueness for the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 2 00:22:29 Now, on top of that, we also then took IOT and data modeled out. I ADI, um, all of the structure. So reality is the international aid transparency initiative utilized by a lot of, um, institutional donors, particularly in Europe for tracing, um, the funding through to partners, um, through sub agreements, the impact of that work and back, um, that is, um, uh, a separate modeling layer. And so if you're not an organization that utilizes an international organization, that's utilizing IOT, you stick with the core CDM, which is that 95 set of entities. If you are using an ID, then there's a whole nother set that comes along with it that aligns to that international standard.
Speaker 0 00:23:09 I think what's interesting to me is part of the subtext of what I'm getting in. Everything that you're saying is in, in actually not a roundabout way, but actually in a very direct way, alignment across platforms for the sake of non-profits to a common data model actually drives every single entity in that alignment to do better on their own technology for nonprofits, because what you're doing is now you are actually truly selling your value. Yeah. Uh, and, and I think that's been a real aha moment. And as I've studied this ecosystem around this, um, and then, you know, one of the things that I am curious about, you know, is that, okay, we have the core sort of entities in the common data model. What does it look like when I, as a platform or I, as an ISV or, or, or, or even I, as a nonprofit say, I want to do something in alignment with it. Yes.
Speaker 2 00:24:22 Yeah. And so I'll, I'll start with, um, with how Microsoft, as a customer of the common data model looks at it and then kind of expand that out for, for some other scenarios. So, first of all, we did the work, um, we've completely decoupled, um, the common data model from any Microsoft dynamics dependencies. It is a truly system, um, platform agnostic set of entities and attributes and relationships that describe that core uniqueness of, um, nonprofit mission delivery and fundraising is, is where it's focused today. Um, and then we try to act as the first best customer of that. So what does that mean? That means we take that model and we incorporate it into products that we build as essentially an ISV, um, creating, um, uh, specific tailored, made, um, solutions for the sector, um, and that we subscribe to the relationships and, um, to the intent of, um, the role of those relationships for how data flows, um, how things are, um, uh, uh, framed and, and developed in, in any applications that we create.
Speaker 2 00:25:36 And so if you build that common data model, then into your solution, in theory, any other solution that builds or maps to the common data model, now that data is easier to join and combined. Um, so we do that across our different platforms, and we've got different ways that we do that. And more and more Microsoft's incorporating common data model and the common data service across Azure and Microsoft dynamics and modern work. We also do a lot of work with other, um, you know, Microsoft partners who adopt the common data model and incorporate it in to solutions, uh, build on top of what Microsoft will create first party. And what we've heard from those partners is just the data model itself takes out somewhere around 15 to 25% of the professional services implementation costs of implementing a CRM into a nonprofit cause all of that data modeling work and the relationship work it's already done.
Speaker 2 00:26:34 Um, and so you don't need to interpret the business and try and apply it to a commercial CRM. You've already caught that. Um, the next extension now is so great. You've got Microsoft using it and Microsoft partners utilizing it. You see some, some monetary value from a, a lower cost of implementation for, for nonprofits, but it also then allows you to that innovate more into new white space, nonprofit. It is, um, the margins are tight. Um, I used to do it nonprofits, do it to me all the time. Like they will beat you up on price all day long. Um, um, the implementation times often take a little bit longer because the change management isn't necessarily as mature as it could be for some of these projects. And some of these projects are complex. Many of these projects are complex. Um, but by, by doing it, doing this work as Microsoft, we take that R and D out of the equation for software partners that want to build, um, solutions, maybe that go, um, into the long tail, um, and look at, at, you know, deeper solutions around case management or, um, uh, addressing addiction or, you know, the, you know, the kinds of, um, you know, the really small organizations that don't have the money to invest in configuring the technology themselves, offer them the ability to work with more partners that offer them more choice for more turnkey solutions.
Speaker 2 00:27:59 And so if we can invest in common models and invest on, um, solutions on top of that, that takes some of the R and D out of the equation and that tight margin now maybe opens up new white space for partners to engage next layer out. Then it is cross-platform. And how does it help us in working with some of the other platform companies that are out there that have been in the space for a while and have, you know, very mature, um, uh, uh, premier applications, um, in use today by even mapping to the CDM. And so we have mapping documentation out on the GitHub, repo on how you can take your entities and map them to the CDM, even if you're not incorporating the CDM into your solution, like, you know, Ford did with business world, if you're at least doing that mapping you've, you've got to start now on.
Speaker 2 00:28:49 If you choose to use one application for your financials and another application for your CRM, they can talk to each other because now you, you know, you have to book those transactions off the grant and you have to make sure you're doing all the compliance steps with your donor. Those systems should be able to communicate. You should be able to join that data in, in a, your way now, then back in, completely out of the business, part of that, and now stepping into the, you know, you're, you're a nonprofit and so two things, um, one as a nonprofit, but, um, it, um, talk to your partners about it. Um, it is the best thing I can say, right, is the tech companies will go where you tell them to go and you need to tell them to go where you want them to go. Um, it's, it's what led us to invest in, in the common data model.
Speaker 2 00:29:44 We need Microsoft invest in the common data models. We heard it from enough people that it was a need. We wanted to create it. Now, if we want other platforms to lean in on it, the nonprofits out there that are using multiple platforms need to be noisy about it. So please be noisy about it. I commit, um, from a Microsoft perspective, I and my team will work with any tech sector partner out there that wants to have a conversation or wants to talk about what does this actually look like? We compete with a lot of these organizations at the end of the day, right? We recognize that. And, you know, as Dan Lamont once told me, um, you know, Microsoft is, is the new dog and the dog park and is, you know, are we, are we the friendly dog? Are we the mean dog? We don't want to be the mean dog that our park, right? So let's talk. And I know it's not a natural conversation for us to have sometimes, but we're not, we're not talking about competition on the application layer. We're talking about how we could potentially collaborate on the data integration layer and at least have some mappings and make it easier for organizations that do to choose to pick applications up. They should have that choice and, and they should be able to, to work with their data in a more open way.
Speaker 0 00:30:56 Yeah. And I think speaking to like, you know, for 15 years, you know, talking explicitly about nonprofits for like 15 years of my career, whenever I talk to a leader at a nonprofit, he's like, you know, what I really want to do is I want to actually build an application for our ecosystem. You know, I'm working
Speaker 1 00:31:16 A two year old many times. Yeah. I'm like
Speaker 0 00:31:18 A two year old trying to eat peas. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. You don't like, I think the slip is what the CDM enables is nonprofits also to be better partners to nonprofits, because now I'm able to say, you don't have to worry about building six different integrations. You have to worry about designing the purpose of your application and allowing the backend alignment to serve your constituents through the CDM. That's a change in conversation and I've gone from like, no, no, no, no, no. To like, yeah, maybe let's talk about it, you know?
Speaker 2 00:31:57 Yeah. And you still need to do it eyes wide open. Right. I mean, that is, that's an investment and it, it means you have to have the right skilling. You'd have to have the right vision and strategy. You have to really understand what is the fit for purpose you need and how are you going to maintain it? Long-term and what's your TCL around that. Yep. But you're exactly right. You know, having, having something like this for Microsoft, you know, we've got a single integration point through, through the common data model and common data service that gives you access to every application in Microsoft's ecosystem across the entire Microsoft cloud, from modern work to Azure, to, to, um, Microsoft dynamics and power platform. And so if you choose, you can use, um, uh, low code, no code application, configuration solutions, like power platform that consume the common data model and build those bespoke systems and be sure that those bespoke systems align back to your security model, that aligned back to your data architecture.
Speaker 2 00:33:02 You know, they're not going to drift as much. And I used to talk about how, um, you know, shadow it is, is a real, um, bugaboo in, in the sector. You have a lot of, um, nonprofits being run off a lot of Excel and a lot of desktops. Um, and frankly, you know, particularly for, for organizations that are working, um, with satellite offices and in the field, um, it's like stopping the tide. You're not going to stop shadow it with something like this. It allows you to embrace it. Um, and again, you know, be smart about it, but you can work off standards like this, so that when you are creating bespoke solutions for individual programs or projects or teams, or even, um, uh, in, in the context of, of disaster response or something like that, it gives you, um, that, that common architecture that once that, that moment is over, um, or, or that team wants to integrate their data with the core system, all the mappings are there. You're able to do it.
Speaker 0 00:34:03 I keep trying to come up with like metaphors. And now my latest is like, imagine if you have a mobile phone and Verizon has a different standard for text messaging than T-Mobile, but all your friends are on T-Mobile and you're on Verizon. Right. Like, you know, so I keep trying to play around with these metaphors to dumb it down because it's, it's not something that I think the broad consumer of technology con community really thinks about, uh, because it's so nuanced. Yeah. It's, it's incredible,
Speaker 1 00:34:39 You know, in some ways that's fine though, right? Like, I don't think this isn't a citizen admin layer, right. This is a partner layer and CIO layer maybe. And so I think that is probably fine. I think the language is important. Um, and Eric, and, you know, you've heard us talk about, you know, this is the, or, you know, the end world rather than the, or world where they used to be either, you know, Salesforce or Blackbaud or dynamics. And we feel like the CDM is the route to an and world where increasingly you're exactly right. It, it is not just connecting shadow technology, but you know, it is the power of NPSP, you know, and the, the ease of use and why documentation combined with the almost immediate integration of that into something like, you know, customer insights on, on Microsoft. Um, and being able to pull information from multiple chapters across platforms from other sources is just so powerful. I think partners can envision that, I guess, very, very hard, you know, for Nancy and accounting to really, to really understand that. And the whole point is that Nancy doesn't need to that's the whole point.
Speaker 2 00:36:00 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, you, you picked up on it early in the conversation, right? Like we, we started with the data model and, and I spent my first two years at Microsoft onstage talking about data models and, and look at these pretty, pretty ERDs. Um, and, you know, as, as awesome and as important as I think that work is it sure doesn't make the connection for Nancy, right? Like, so what do you build on top of that? That makes it real. And I think that's where we are now is we've got a mature model. We have, um, uh, you know, 50 Microsoft ISV that have picked up on it and are building on it today. We've got 200 other partners that are working on it, including cross platform partners that are adopting it, Oracle net suite, um, presented at the net hope conference last week and talked about how they're the latest convert to, to CDM, you know, this that's, that's the real power of it is, you know, it doesn't become a common model unless organizations are using it in common.
Speaker 2 00:37:05 And we, and we let go of some of the barriers that, that have led to that before. Right. And it doesn't have to be a huge investment to do a basic mapping, to show alignment for, for nonprofit organizations that view this as important. They want to aggregate data and have that choice. Like let's, let's give them, let's give them the choice and let's compete all day long and a choice. And, you know, we should be making the investment to, to make innovative technology that then gets them better and better solutions because we're not arguing about the data later underneath
Speaker 1 00:37:35 Our conversation, as you can imagine, that happens a lot. Um, and that's well said, thank you. Um, conversation that we're having a lot is is this the Microsoft common data model, or is this the nonprofit common data model? And Microsoft did start it, our language is so far has been Microsoft sponsored it. Um, I think we want to hear very explicitly, is this for everyone, or is this a really, really shrewd marketing ploy? So I say at that, that, that way, sorry,
Speaker 2 00:38:12 It's for everyone. Right. And I remember in the, in the early days of this, like you, you could probably even find some of my first slides that, that came out of Microsoft said Microsoft nonprofit, common data model. We took the Microsoft brand off it. Um, we, we completely decoupled the engine. It carries no dependencies at all to Microsoft technology. It is, um, a taxonomy that describes, um, the, what, what we think are the most common scenarios in the sector. And, um, the, you know, that's where we started with the NGO reference model. We created, um, us a set of scenarios and capabilities that we thought most nonprofits encounter, which is, you know, where we started with program delivery and constituent management and fundraising and campaign management, and some of the operations and financials, that's what the model describes. And it doesn't tie to dynamics. It doesn't, um, tie to any other platform now, importantly, um, uh, because we have, um, two things that we need to steward here.
Speaker 2 00:39:22 One is, um, having a common standard that, that starts to get in use with technology companies that are implementing it for product. It can't be the wild west. You have to have a process through which any changes, additions, um, uh, um, uh deprecations or anything that happens around that model needs to be planful once, once it becomes used, does it continue to grow and evolve a hundred percent? Is that growth, um, uh, community and formed a hundred percent, is that also now informed by other tech sector partners that are engaged in it hundred percent. Um, we run those convenings. Um, so we invest in a steering team across sector steering team, um, that can be used to convene in person a couple of times a year. Um, and we meet monthly. We, um, invest in a tech partner, um, team advisory team, but that we work together on what issues and questions and, and directions are other tech sector companies coming up with. So we do act in a stewardship role and, and carry the banner a little bit, um, admittedly, um, but it is, um, by design and by intent and by publication through GitHub open and available to anyone on any platform.
Speaker 0 00:40:38 Yeah, I think the, the, the fun part about it for me is, you know, seeing an ecosystem that I personally care about very deeply, you know, have another sort of tool in its tool belt, you know, and, and it's nice to honestly hear that this is an everybody in kind of model. This is, you know, I, I joke frequently about my own past as a community organizer. And I'm like, you know, Saul Alinsky, like one-on-one said, you work with the people in the room and you move them accordingly and you do what they tell you to do when they get there. You know, like, and, and that's that, that, that ticks the old heart in me, you know, and I think the potential for this model to move into other areas. And I think some folks are already talking about this. Like I, I heard threads of at net hope like the potential of this, you know, philosophy to move into grantmaking where it's like, what we need is a central convening authority. So that nonprofits don't waste tons of time reporting 60 different ways to 60 different foundations. Right? Yeah. You know, you think about, what's going to be critical for changing this world between now and 2030, and it is going to be saving time and making things as efficient as possible for the people who are on the front lines of change.
Speaker 2 00:42:05 One of the, one of the questing beasts that I have in, in, um, my heart of hearts around this is imagine taking a model like this, where we started with program delivery and started with a structure around, um, monitoring and evaluation built out, you know, um, based on IOT, you know, log, frame, formats, and looking at theory of change and, you know, all the rubrics that are out there for how organizations can, can measure impact. And you think across all the different donors and, and oftentimes even in a single, um, philanthropy, different donor, officer's asking different questions of different indicators of nonprofits, even for very similar programs. What potential, what, how amazing would it be if we could come together across tech sector, academia, funders, nonprofits, IGS, and talk about common indicator sets and start to include some of those common indicator sets as, um, libraries available to be used through, um, something like common data model.
Speaker 2 00:43:08 We took a first step there with SDGs. Um, and so we have the STDs aligned as, um, as an indicator set. They, they go to a certain level. Um, but you can imagine taking this and starting to think about if we can measure common indicators, cross platform, cross donor, cross nonprofit that has a real potential to accelerate impact. And now admittedly, it's a total questing beast, right? That is an enormous body of work to get organizations to agree on indicator sets. There's a lot of really great work that's happening out there and an organization like Microsoft in shepherding something like this can help tap into that and incorporate those libraries when appropriate, make it available to the tech sector partners that are aligning to the work. Yeah. And
Speaker 1 00:43:56 I mean, and what I just got to say, sorry, sorry. Just, I'm so excited about that, but yeah. Impact doesn't care about the taxable checkbox either. So it does not matter. Yeah. If that is a nonprofit or a for-profit and between all of us impact has a much wider success rate, as soon as it gets into the, you know, the, the for-profit sector. And we start saying, what, what would it look like? You know, when you see for-profit that have to double bottom line into a, in, into the impact space, which is coming, because if you want any talent in the future, if you want to, you know, have it, I just think corporate social responsibility as a penance move is just not enough anymore. Um, it just is not cutting it.
Speaker 2 00:44:51 I, I agree. And again, you know, it, it is, it is really, really needed and it's appreciated, and it's not enough, right. And creating those sustainable models that allow you to go deeper. Um, it is really exciting. That's a big reason why I'm at Microsoft. It's, you know, if you think about, you know, our opportunity, not just as Microsoft, but some of the other big players, um, that, that operate in the non-profit space, looking outside of the, the nonprofit sector as some of the other, um, the other for-profit customers that we have, and, and helping to encourage them to create similar models for engaging in the sector. This, this gets really interesting, you know, I, I love that we have a seemingly unique model at Microsoft and would love for it not to be unique.
Speaker 0 00:45:38 Yeah. I say it this way, like hand to the goddess, like a lot of people play the little six degrees of separation game. I have a few people in my life who are like one and a half degrees of separation to some really interesting folks, both in Hollywood and also in the political world. So occasionally, like I get a phone call and it's like, Tracy, what if like X person wanted to do Y thing for nonprofits and time? And again, what I actually say is, look, they're probably motivated because they have like, the big feels about it. Like the big feels about the whales or the big fields about the ocean plastic or whatever. I say, look, don't have feelings, have a strategy. And I think what this kind of medic contextually unlocks is can we replicate this strategically so that when we have a conversation with somebody who does have big fields, we're able to sort of present them with, like, here's a framework, both for acknowledging your feelings and your intention, which are pure and all already enables a systematic set of actions that we know will deliver impact. Particularly if you look at it to the lens of the 20, 30 journey that we've sort of looked around with the SDGs a lie.
Speaker 2 00:47:02 Yeah. It it's, you know, as time is ticking away, it's becoming more and more important that, you know, we as individuals and we, as, um, as private sector tech companies need, need to make the choice to invest in those, those technologies and, um, areas that we think will help scale impact. And, um, you know, the, the, you know, individual lighthouse projects, CSR programs, again, are really, really needed, you know, find those opportunities where they tick and tie it back to platforms and back to, you know, scalable solutions. So that it's not a one time point in time intervention, but something that contributes to, um, uh, national health system or contributes to global goods or contributes to, you know, the, the, the formation of, um, international standards for how to, um, measure impact like that. That's the, that's the kind of opportunity I think we have in, in this, you know, crazy mishmash of, you know, tech sector engaging more in non-profit with, with funders and academia and civil society and government, right?
Speaker 2 00:48:05 Like what comes out of that? You know, cause tech sector work, we're not going to be the trusted actor in that one. Right. We're, we're going to at some level have, have some vested interests, even if we have the most altruistic intentions in the world. Um, so who leads, right? And that's, you know, a big part of the conversation is, is, you know, does that leadership come out of nonprofit? Does that leadership come out of civil society? Where, where does that happen? Um, and, and how do those coalitions form and then produce is I think where we're tech sector can, can really help.
Speaker 0 00:48:37 Yeah. And, and maybe it's its own thing eventually. Right? Maybe the leadership of this thing is its own thing. Eventually I wanted, cause we're, we're coming up on our hour. Um, you know, we've grilled you, what, what are thoughts that you haven't articulated? What are things that come to mind that you're like, why aren't they asking about X, Y, or Z or agency, you know, like that you feel is important to say in the context of this conversation?
Speaker 2 00:49:07 Yeah. I mean, I, I guess I would, I would flip it around and ask you guys a question on, um, do, do you think we're blowing smoke right? Is, is it, you know, is what we're talking about, achievable. Um, is there enough, um, uh, um, intention push, um, realization in the nonprofit sector? Is there enough desire to have some of these more collaborative conversations cross-platform um, or are we in a place where we're still not ready for that?
Speaker 0 00:49:38 Hmm. I have my feelings go, Tim. Um, and what's needed.
Speaker 1 00:49:47 Yeah, no, I mean, love the question. I don't think you know this Eric, but, um, when I heard last summer about the CDM, I said, this, this is it. This is the thing that we've needed for a long time. And, um, and shortly after decided to fly to net hope and be part of this expensive, uh, conference that turned out to
Speaker 0 00:50:13 Puerto Rico, by the way. So
Speaker 2 00:50:16 No complaints amazing, especially
Speaker 1 00:50:20 This year, I'm like so glad, but, um, but it really was, uh, the reason I went was to meet your team, Eric, to sit in the room and listen to this and to answer the question you just asked, are they just blowing smoke? And, um, I've pivoted our business to work hand in hand with what Microsoft is doing, because I don't think it is. And that has been a series of conversations that has been me putting questions out to your team about what does the and platform world look like? And your team is answering in a way that feels realistic. I think there's, I think that without Microsoft, as a brand creating this, it had a no chance of success. I think it's got a real shot. And I think that shot is because you saw this is what the industry needs, and it can't be coupled with Microsoft.
Speaker 1 00:51:24 It means to be, you know, the whole industries and because you framed it that way, I do think it's got a shot. I think that it's a long shot, but I think it's got a shot. And I think that shot is like all long shots dependent on individual actors choosing in sometimes against what feels like their best interest for the common good. I like those odds. I like those odds because in the next 10 years, scarcity is creating so much demand for collaboration that we have got to play differently. And we need a large partner to set the stage for that. And then back away and say, I've set the table. It's Ali. So thank you for doing that. I do think we've got a shot, uh, me in the fields.
Speaker 0 00:52:08 Thank you. I do too. I think I have a more philosophical answer. I agree with everything that Tim has said, my answer is a little more philosophical. And I think at some point we're going to run into this very hard entity called capitalism. And capitalism has always beholden to the interest of either private owners or shareholders, right. And why I say it that way. It's because part of what I think is necessary to really move this forward is actually a discussion of interest over time. And I think so much of our society and so much of the discussion that we've had even this year has been around capitalism and equality and equity for whom under which circumstances and why is it being expressed this way? So I think, you know, one of the opportunities we have that could really change this is saying in order for capitalism as a system to sustain itself, we have to look beyond the interest of next quarters sales. And we have to look at what kind of world we want in 2050. And as my old boss used to say, throw an anchor to it and use that chain to pull ourselves forward. And I think how we can get there is by saying, you know, what looks like not acting in our own interest is actually acting in everybody's interest 25 years from now. And that's why we're doing this it's because all we're doing is we're taking this timeline, we're making it longer and we're broadening the equity and inclusion invested in
Speaker 2 00:54:02 It. Yeah. It's that, that doing well by doing good. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:54:06 And someone to say, like, we're, we're doing capitalism, but we're doing capitalism for 2060.
Speaker 2 00:54:13 Right. And we're, you know, in, in a world where, um, uh, you know, in my opinion, you know, nonprofits should be demanding more collaboration from
Speaker 0 00:54:25 Their temper. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:54:29 Um, and that's, you know, that's the challenge I threw out, um, in, in, uh, uh, webcast last week. It's, it's a challenge I'll throw out on this one. You know, if you're a nonprofit listening to this demand collaboration from your tech partners, you know, you, you may not get it today, but boy, I sure hope you get it tomorrow. Right. Cause if it's coming from the nonprofits and, and based in a realistic understanding of what it will take some of those organizations to drop those barriers and even sit at a table and have a conversation virtual or otherwise, right. W we'll do it, Microsoft will do it. That's that's the company we are today. I personally will do it. Um, but it's gonna, you know, to really drive the change in, in a, um, a more rapid way it's got to come from the sector. Yep.
Speaker 1 00:55:20 Eric, thank you so much for your time. And, um, you know, buried in your story. There's a pivot here where you, you opted out of the photography company, which is awesome, and you didn't go towards some high paying something else in technology. You went to path and, uh, that is actually a really appropriate name for what happened next. Um, thanks for that. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Really enjoyed the conversation.
Speaker 0 00:55:49 Yeah. These things give hope and we talk about hope as a commodity and hope
Speaker 3 00:55:55 As an outcome. And it's hopeful that so many people are interested in this. So thank you. Thanks. I'm Tim lucky. I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 1 00:56:09 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations. If you like what you've heard,
Speaker 0 00:56:19 Please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
