Speaker 1 00:00:07 Today's episode is a double order of non-toxic optimism with a side of good, please. Hi Tracy.
Speaker 2 00:00:16 Hey Tim. It's really nice to be here with you today, and it's really nice to have all of you listeners join us as well. We're incredibly excited for our conversation with John and Becky from we are for good, and we hope that you will find it as insightful and breathtaking as we do.
Speaker 1 00:00:35 If you're like me, who finds it easy to believe that good is losing, then this is an episode to tune into because this episode calls into question. The assumption that good is somehow not as powerful and frequently loses our guests today are Becky Endot and John McCoy from we are for good. They believe that what connects us exceeds what divides us and their non-toxic optimism is a force for good in the impact economy.
Speaker 2 00:01:06 Hey everybody, Tim and I are super excited to have you joining us for another episode of why it matters. This is our first crossover episode ever with. We are for good. Uh, I coined it internal as the Simpsons beach future am, and I'll let you decide which one of us is which, and the
Speaker 3 00:01:29 Future
Speaker 2 00:01:30 <laugh> Tracy. I, I was thinking Simpsons, but I'll, I'll go for either. Um, and you know, we are delighted to have Becky and Jonathan with us today, and we're also delighted to have you with us today as always. So I wanted to dive right into the conversation and say, both of you and we are for good, have become a, to a force in the nonprofit eco world or ecosystem in a very short period of time, what I call the impact economy, what folks call nonprofits and you've done. So in a way that I call non-toxic optimism and that is your work and your interviews give people a little bit more levity to their day and a little bit more hope in their work than they started with when they start listening to it. And that's a thread that goes through a lot of what you're offering the nonprofit ecosystem right now. What I would like to start with is, was that always your vision where you were always like let's do nontoxic optimism, or did you have sort of a different journey to get to where you are? That would be really interesting for our listeners to hear bearing in mind. A lot of our listeners are industry leaders who are possibly thinking about doing their own thing for their own business. I mean, while first, thank
Speaker 4 00:02:58 You. We, we love both of you dearly and this time to get to spin together is like we've been looking forward to it for weeks. So thank you for the space and the time. And I mean, yeah, I guess it has been always in our DNA. It's definitely not an act. You know, I think Becky and I found each other, gosh, 20 years ago, she hired me as an intern, walking into the marketing office of the OSU foundation. I was wearing a tie that day because I thought I need to impress. And there was Becky Indico, you know, and we hit it off. We didn't
Speaker 3 00:03:26 Know what she was doing. PS, let's talk about that imposter syndrome.
Speaker 4 00:03:30 Yeah, but I mean, she seemed to have it all together. I mean, she's leading a marketing department that was about to embark on a billion dollar fundraising campaign and she was in her early twenties and here, you know, I came in as the graphic designer and I do think we were starry-eyed optimist, but we both just really like, loved the idea of philanthropy. And there's definitely parts of our story that we got burnt out from a lot of aspects of it. But I think both of us are just the type that, I mean, we could sit around and creatively brainstorm of Becky I'm. I'm going back to this moment. We're when we're thinking of annual reports and how can we story tell this? And we got so excited, you know, in March of the penguins was really big. We're like we're gonna do March of the donors. Then it seems to be like this thing <laugh> the enthusiasm was real, you know, it's like, we truly just love what it did from a transformational aspect. I think we just believed in the power of philanthropy and that has been a very and thread. And so it's easy to show up and just celebrate that on the daily, cuz we truly do love it.
Speaker 3 00:04:26 And I, I just think that we're both products of extreme privilege. And we came from homes where we were deeply loved and um, we had great opportunities afforded to us in our life and John and I have always called ourselves ridiculous idealist and we're just naturally optimistic about things. We see the good and the possibility and so much, which I really probably do hearken back to a lot of that, just feeling very nurtured and love. And I, I don't know, there's something I think as, as disarming as it can be to just someone on social media, I think it's just as disarming to come in and love somebody really well. And it just feels like a very tenuous time in the world. And we've all been through a traumatic life event with a pandemic, no matter how it hit you. And um, I think the divisiveness of the world just seems kind of at an apex and we just thought, here are the humans doing the greatest work in the world.
Speaker 3 00:05:29 They are pouring themselves into purpose. Whether you're the one that's funding, something, whether you're the beneficiary, whether you're the nonprofit staffer it's like for all everyone to come in and understand the symb nature of how we need each other to help put more good into the world. We think we can do it more effectively if we take the ego out. And if we take our personal agendas out and if we can all just kind of harmonize and center around the thing that gives us all purpose, the thing that breaks our hearts, the thing that gets us up in the morning, then man, we can scale so much faster, accelerate so much faster and people want to do that in community. And when you can love on them in community, they keep coming back when you're vulnerable, when you're authentic, they see themselves than that. And so naturally I think the, I I'm cracking up at the non-toxic comment. It's hilarious positivity, but I, I just think I love to love on people. I'm a, I'm an engram too deep in path. So it, it is as much selfish for me to do that. Um, and I love that it's kind of become this Uck, Oklahoma hallmark of our company. It was not intentionally planned. It's just kind of how we are.
Speaker 4 00:06:43 And also too, like we, you know, we had a business plan, like we had I'm real entrepreneurial wired. And so what we are for good was gonna be took a lot of different kind of paths over the years. But as we started to hone in and we finally made the jump and we could tell that, but you know, we sat down in Becky's kind of bonus room, like kind of staring at each other. Like what did we just do? <laugh> like, we're like, we're about to like have this, you know, moment when we're gonna start the company. And Becky literally started with writing a love LA letter to philanthropy and we sat down and circled out what are our core values? And, and we, like, we started from that place and it started to fall into place as we like live those out, not in a self aggrandizing way.
Speaker 4 00:07:25 It just like it felt right. And being in nonprofit, there's so much scarcity, you know, and I think we love this place. And so things that you love, you want the opposite of scarcity. You want abundance, you want to give it the, that you've got and all those levels. And I think that's how we presented to wanted to reflect back to the industry. That's so grossly underserved on every level often we wanted to kind of do the opposite of that in the way that we show up. So it feels over the top, but at the same time, it it's like a love letter back to the industry that we really do love that there's a lot of incredible people that are pouring their and soul and expertise and creativity into it. So it's kind of come from that spot
Speaker 2 00:08:05 That makes a, a bundle of sense to me. I think I will, I will share something personally and then I will use it to pivot to Jonathan, something you just said. And that is, you know, uh, one of our staffers here at now at matters, uh, which is sort of the parent of why it matters in a lot of ways. I think, uh, you know, Joanie, Brian talked a lot about vulnerability and did so in a way that really drew attention to the need to focus on under resourced communities in technology, uh, and used her own life journey as an ex example of what is the power of change when we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and, you know, without our own egos involved in the circumstance. And it is that point of what is without our own egos involved. Because tell me more about that love letter to philanthropy, because I, I have seen in my own world way too many times where really good ideas get kind of shunned by the wayside because of ego, because of the inability for a leader in specific, but more broadly businesses and organizations to want to be vulnerable and have two-way conversations with their constituents or customers.
Speaker 2 00:09:30 So tell me more about that letter, uh, and what was in that and what made it a love letter.
Speaker 3 00:09:37 I mean, I think it was just one of those nights where I had a two glasses of wine. I'm all up in my head about our business. And I really was just thinking about the, the miracles that we are so privileged to get to watch unfold in this space. And, and you mentioned, you know, under resource communities and I sit there and think nonprofit is an under resource community. It is a community that has not had, uh, money poured into it. Um, it's not allowed to scale and innovate because that quote unquote takes away for, um, the beneficiary. We are taught to not value our mental health because you just gotta make it work. You had, you work in a nonprofit, therefore you sacrifice, and it was kind of a, Hey, they're the greatest human beings, the most creative human beings, the most hardwired human beings in this sector, what would happen if we did the exact opposite <laugh> of creating scarcity?
Speaker 3 00:10:39 What if we threw abundance into this sector? And so what, what was expressed in that letter was really our dreams of what we've seen on the very tip of that iceberg on the fringes of once you allow someone to scale, to dream, to go for it, to ice stuff, to innovate, to use tech, you know, to get a, a normal salary, a living salary to work, you know, a living wage to not feel like while you're giving birth, you need to be on your phone, which we talked to somebody the other day, who was like literally in the birthing process, trying to talk about how do I down these projects in nonprofit and it stories like that are so shocking to people and they're happening every single day in your pet charities. And so our love letter to nonprofit was really expressed about what we see.
Speaker 3 00:11:34 And we, we believe in the power of good. We believe that philanthropy P is very much a sacred space. We believe creativity brings stories to life. Like nothing else. We believe in the power of mission bake in mission based work. And finally we just believe in big ideas and disruption, and then we just kind of rounded it all off with, we think that kindness is a superpower and it's one that people don't use. And to your point about vulnerability, you will never ever be able to fully connect with your audience from a marketing standpoint, from a sales standpoint, from a messaging standpoint, if you do not bring vulnerability and the hallmark of gen X, a lot of our millennials I'm even, or, or I said, gen X, gen Z, but even gen X who I am, I'm born in the seventies. I still value kindness. I still value things that move my heart. And so we think it's actually one of the great disarming tools that exist right now. And it is so prevalent in nonprofit and we're ready to flip those scripts and watch our nonprofit friends run once they understand that they're worthy of that.
Speaker 2 00:12:49 That's amazing. Thank you. I think, you know, one of the things that makes it hard to serve nonprofits is the collaboration of all of those issues that you just talked about. And you are talking about a community of folks who never actually get the opportunity to just have Greenfield ideas and run with them nine times out of 10. So what needs to change in the meta structures around nonprofits that can afford folks? That opportunity, I think is a really important point to call out to our listeners that, and I, I, I miss the seventies immeasurably <laugh>, um, my goodness, I miss them so much.
Speaker 3 00:13:34 My, my 11 year olds into seventies music, and it is just bringing me life so much joy
Speaker 2 00:13:39 This day opens your heart when you hear like the Eagles and the Steve Miller band.
Speaker 3 00:13:44 Totally. My
Speaker 2 00:13:45 Totally this is wonderful.
Speaker 4 00:13:48 I mean, I do think there is some shifts that have to happen. And I mean, obviously with everything negative that came through through the pandemic, I think it helped a lot of ways of kind of speeding some processes that could have taken another 10 years to make happen in the nonprofit space. So I think there's been some beginning work, but with everything it's gotta start with like the mindsets. And I think there's a lot of people in leadership positions that have old mindsets. You we've worked in organizations that have old mindsets that there's that's permeates and it's really holding back because the people that we look up to, the people that we see across the industry that are actually, you know, charting a new path is they see the elimination of walls, you know, where we see really, I even think us saying, we're the podcast for nonprofits.
Speaker 4 00:14:39 We saw a wall when we wrote that. And that was two years ago. Um, that's a limiting factor that we thought that's where we need to serve. And I think two years into the journey, we're like, it's not just about nonprofit. Like that's part of the problem is we think that we're the solution. You know, we're, the here comes philanthropy to save the day and it's like, that's not gonna work. And so I think as it's gonna work in its own way, when it's paired with really awake corporations that see their influence and see their ability to take on a social purpose, and you can see how you can work with advocacy to mobilize an army of people that are never gonna be considered big philanthropists, but people that have the social capital and the influence online to garner attention or, uh, people that can move in a certain direction.
Speaker 4 00:15:25 And it's like, we gotta get out of the walls. And so I think leaders that are viewing in that box are really holding the sector your back. And so, you know, I think we see the challenge a lot of times it's like, if that's you, you gotta do some self-reflection of why is that? And it's cool. Like, like I just explained our own limited thinking in areas, if you're not willing to move that you gotta make room, like, because what we're fighting for is the most important work. Some of the most important work happening on the earth, and we're holding it back by holding onto limiting beliefs and mindsets around how that work needs to be done or how it, um, can shape and kind of move into spaces that it traditionally has not done. And so I think that's the biggest thing, you know, and that, that, that's kind of the trickle down of everything to follow,
Speaker 1 00:16:08 You know, um, something that I've so appreciated about getting to know you both in, well, multiple conversations now that I finally figured out in this conversation is that when you talk about good, one of the other things you keep saying is power. And, um, and I think that's important to recognize because cynic like me constantly fall into to the trap of thinking that whatever the opposite of good is, which is like confusing in and of itself, but let's leave it there. Right? Yeah. Whatever the non good is, is more powerful and that good is, you know, naive and too Pollyanna. And, um, and I think one of the things you keep doing for me is flipping the script on that and saying actually good is very powerful. And just a blanket, things are bad is, is actually just a shallow of an analysis as you know, thinking that that good is not sophisticated. Um, and I, I feel like that's important is that intentional? Am I finally just picking up on what you've been saying all along and you know, where, where, yeah. How does that work for you? What does, what does that look like?
Speaker 3 00:17:27 I mean that doesn't, I don't judge you at all for that, Tim. I mean, I think we were all there at some point. I just think that we, we have watched this social experiment play out over and over and people, I mean, we're all different. None of us can agree on anything. How, and, and we talk about, we need more cognitive diversity, all over nonprofit, all, all over this world. We need to be still, and we need to sit here and we need to listen to someone else's story. We need to look at their face. As they're talking about their lived experience, we need to hold court and allow them to feel the feelings of what, whatever that was, that are coming in. And we need to allow that to shape our thoughts and our beliefs. And I just think we've worked in a system specifically in nonprofit where power dynamics are the name of the game.
Speaker 3 00:18:23 And yeah, you are constantly at the bottom of that, that pyramid and our thinking. We, we were looking at it going, we hate the pyramid. <laugh> we wanna flip the pyramid upside down and what would happen if you start to empower the base? And the only way the base is gonna be and feel that they can move as a movement is when you tap into the thing that's the most personal to them. And when you talk to somebody about the things that they care about, most the other little things that we disagree on, start to kind of slide away because we really care about hungry kids, or we really care about climate justice and providing our grandkids, you know, a clean earth where they can live and breathe and walk. We care about animals and being kind to animals. And when you find people who can really dive into that, why the good just comes with it because that intention is so pure and so vulnerable. And then you're, you're tethered like for life and this, in this heart thing that you have connected to each other. And so we actually think perhaps it's kind of been, am I allowed to say this word bastardized a bit, like to be good to
Speaker 2 00:19:46 We're an explicit podcast on apple, right.
Speaker 3 00:19:48 Excellent. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:19:48 We're
Speaker 5 00:19:49 Not whatever you, but I love it. <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:19:53 Oh, I feel so. Like I I'm seen, um, but I, I just think that being good, used to be this thing where it was like, that's never gonna get anything done and it's like, yeah, actually, have you ever thought that it could get everything done?
Speaker 2 00:20:07 Well, I mean, I know Tim's itching to jump in on this, but the thing that just occurred to me while you're were both talking was one, we have gone in the tech industry in specific through many iterations of what quote unquote good looks like. Right. And for a while, the thinking was, I give away X quantity of Y product and that's good. Right. And for a while, the thinking was, I give away something else and that's good. And what I really wanna clarify and point out here is that it's actually not about you as a business, as a technology business, giving away things, either your product or in some cases, as I've been asked by the myriad of business owners that I've talked to, like Tracy, we're profoundly uncomfortable, not, you know, we don't want to give away our IP. It's got nothing to do with giving away. It's got everything to do with how you show up and are willing to receive. Yeah. And I think that's the point that really comes clear to me.
Speaker 3 00:21:09 I love that, Tracy.
Speaker 4 00:21:11 Yeah. And I keep thinking like your question about power that keeps coming up in my head. I mean, it is a theme that, that we keep showing that nonprofits need to come to the table from a place of power where you're typically like kind of the receiving end, you have this impact, especially with the corporate sectors, really trying to embrace, like you've got that power, um, of just this impact of this decades of work or this kind of infrastructure that supports this. And you're not coming to the table with nothing, you know? And I think, uh, let me throw this personally where I'm seeing this, um, because well, launching a business is a very personal growth exercise on every level and a friend exercise. I mean, Becky and I have had some really hard conversations over the last couple years, you know, and I personally have a very limited like money mindset because of my own scarcity in life or so my upbringing that I just, I'm more <affirmative> I hold onto that and it terrifies me and I'll, I'll kind of drag my feet on making some of those decisions.
Speaker 4 00:22:14 And, you know, as we are, we've grown and we realized that advertisers are gonna be a big part of our business, you know, moving forward. I mean, we're having more and more media platforms. It's part of it. And I was sharing that, you know, with, um, a mentor on Friday and she's like, I keep hearing it from y'all that it's almost like you feel bad about making money. And I think that it's like, it's truly like somewhere in my core that it's like, if we're doing something that's good and noble like that, it's almost bad to make money on the back of that. And she was like, you gotta stop that like right now, because you can make so much more of an impact if you can embrace that more money is going to be able to give more power to influence in a positive way.
Speaker 4 00:22:53 And if I get to the core of it, if I'm really alone in a quiet place, which is really hard on my house, cuz there's, I've got two sets of twins and it's crazy all the time, but in my quietest place, I'm like I do want more people that are good at their core to have more money, to be able to make the influence. Like that's a positive of like we need to be fighting and championing for that on every front that, that the good people in the world can get, you know, and, and have that power to make a positive difference and impact. So that's kind of threatened together. Like I feel like I'm having this coming of age story as the, as the nonprofit sector needs to be having that too. And some of embrace that, but I think others have a long way to go in that, in that path.
Speaker 1 00:23:30 Very, I I'm glad that you say that. And um, and some of what you're talking about echoes for me very loudly, especially launching a business and then the multiple ways that, that causes you to grow as an individual, uh, is, is amazing. Um, and the there's this way that you're, that you think about, uh, or that we all think about, um, about good and as an economist, there's a lot of work I've done around. Like how do we do impact? How do you measure impact? Um, and, and when we were thinking about our podcast, one of the, one of the foundational assumptions that we have is that, um, and this is, I think even easier in tech than philanthropy, but it's easy to just see impact or outcomes as external, right. Things that happen yeah. Outside. And that we need the right policies. We need the right incentives.
Speaker 1 00:24:33 We need to think about that high level. Um, and same with technology, you know, oh, this is base code. It doesn't have, you know, anything to do with, um, with who we are as people. And I think that's the, the thing it, um, now it matters and why it matters has pressed in the most is that this is actually very human-centric and that, um, what we create as humans flows from the values that are inside of us. So, you know, when you talk about getting to who you are at a quiet place in your house, and when we think about decisions that everybody makes and mindset that we have, I feel like it's important to say as values as there's a, an increase in how, how important values are in business and impact. I think it's really important to plant the flag on those values, have to start with individuals. I, and, and that those values have to be contained within, within, within individuals. Um, and so I, I feel like that's easier for me to do a technology. I struggle with that in terms of marketing and philanthropy. And so I think one question I have is how have you, how have you maintained at, in a world that looks to me very, very outward focused and very like let's put the right kind of paint, the right kind of logos and, um, and maybe hide at times some of what isn't working well, <laugh>, um,
Speaker 2 00:26:03 The absolute horror and fear that all of us have created businesses go, go through
Speaker 3 00:26:08 All of this.
Speaker 2 00:26:09 Yeah. Does
Speaker 1 00:26:10 That, does that make sense? Um, that question, okay.
Speaker 3 00:26:13 It makes perfect sense. And I I'll do a little tee cause I feel like John will just explain this beautifully, but you know, our company started by outlining our core values like that literally is what started our company. Our first core value is everyone matters. We have eight of them. Um, our last core value is community is everything. And we've got six stacked in between there. And they're very, very simple, um, ideas, but they are not tra they're very untraditional. And, but it's really about centering our work in the human component because that is what it is. And I would even just say to you, Tim, like, cuz you all have beautiful values expressed in your company. And it's why we love you all so much because you live them. And we have created a ton of content around our values. We did an entire Friday episode series unpacking each of our core values at the very beginning of launching our podcast because we wanted our community to know what they meant to us and how they'll see them expressed.
Speaker 3 00:27:17 And we pulled them in, I would say almost to every episode we can thread back to having a guest on and we can illuminate why they're playing, you know, why they're valuing this, this same value that we have. We love showing that value alignment. And again, it goes back to empathy and it goes back to making smart decisions and we're thinking like a business all the time and we're not gonna apologize for it. But I think, think that I, I think one of the, the great things about our values that has made me feel so good is when we have people in our community, we have sponsors and vendors reflect them back to us. We've had sponsors come in and say, we wanna create a mid ad around, you know, core value number four, which is we're here to, you know, create believers, not donors.
Speaker 3 00:28:07 You know, we don't wanna create donors. We wanna create believers because believers are not only gonna bring the financial, uh, bottom line to bear, but they're gonna bring passion network volunteerism. They're gonna bring everything with them when you ma when you build a believer. And so when we have people in our community say that I know I'm in the right place, because you say these things about who you are and you live them, the trust that's built there. And that is something that I would take away that has been a huge takeaway in building our business is that we are able to build trust so quickly and that vulnerability and that self-expression of who we are and re it. I think it just had tremendous resonance specifically. And the great resignation when people are leaving their jobs voluntarily and saying, looking around saying, why am I doing the work that I'm doing?
Speaker 3 00:28:57 You know, why am I spending my life working to death? You know, I need to find something that really, you know, drives me and motivates me. And those are the people that we're ready to take in and mobilize in the, for or in the nonprofit or the social impact space. Cuz we want their passion. We want their hustle, we want their heart, we want all their creativity. And you have to think that a lot of 'em came in the door through our values is just like mind blowing. We just didn't honestly didn't even think about it. So John, go ahead. Cause I feel like this was a lot your brain and child.
Speaker 4 00:29:27 I mean, I, I truly think it's a journey for both of us at the same time, but y'all know this from starting a company it's very much reflective of the people that start it, you know? And I think some of these things were just kind of true of the way we showed up. And so I never thought of it as like disruptive the way that we did marketing. I thought we value people. We value people feeling seen and not otherized and all these things like, so of course that's how we've created marketing. I'm a designer by trade. Becky's a writer. So I can think back for 15 years of interviewing people in, in different settings when we are working in a nonprofit that we always sit down and say like, tell us about your family. Like I want to get to know you, we're not using somebody to just accomplish our goal.
Speaker 4 00:30:10 And I guess at the core, because we like, we love the people aspect of it. And so I think it is funny now, not in a funny, funny haha way, but I like it's blow is my mind that that was not the common way to approach marketing, you know? And I guess, cuz we're such purest, maybe call us naive or whatever, but it's like truly we've been doing this kind. I mean call anybody we've worked with for the last 15 years. That's just how we did it because that's, we knew that was the most important core thing. And so I can't think of another way to story tell besides authentically in that sense and it's truly what worked, um, uh, especially, well, when we were in healthcare philanthropy, I think of this campaign that really set our, uh, minds and hearts kind of on how we are for good would look, it was this employee giving campaign, which sounds so dorky when we talk about it, which like bringing it up, it was all kinds of politics. So I mean, just, just to give you an example, you know, we were tasked, let's do this, let's create an employee giving campaign. So we started calling around shops and it's like, okay, we do casino Royal for a month and we do the cruise ship theme and it's
Speaker 3 00:31:16 Like, and we're gonna hand out some candy bars on our cart with a pledge form. And
Speaker 4 00:31:21 Exactly. So maybe like ego, but we're like, are people crazy? Like who wants to do do that? You know? So we just were like, how about what if we interviewed people and took unfiltered photos of them sitting on a stool, telling their stories of what's happened in their life that makes them passionate. And we did that, you know, 11 years ago probably now. And that campaign came like this like kind of pace setter for the healthcare industry, which is how we got to different events and how we started teaching this method. And I'm like at the end of the day, all we did was ask somebody to literally sit on a white stool and tell us their story. Like, why was that disruptive? You know, why is it disruptive to be kind and to see people? And I, I, I know that comes from a place of privilege, you know, to say that, but it's kind of just been in our DNA. So of course that's how we've shown up. And I hope that doesn't sound arrogant. It's just, um, it's sad that that's the place that, that your experience in marketing has been opposite of that because to us, it's like just an opportunity to story, tell the heartbeat of why we want to do any of this crap anyway, you know, and, um, that's just always been central. So
Speaker 1 00:32:26 It's funny. I mean, echoes, oh, go ahead, Tim. <laugh> well, I, this is really quick. Um, yeah, yeah. Uh, I would say it echoes, um, kind of a transformation I had in talking and getting to know Mallory Erickson that, oh, we really started to reshape the way I thought about fundraising. And I think it's, I, I don't think my opinions necessarily well informed. It's just like, you know, it's, it's impressionist art and not, not charitable either. So, um, and I, and so I think it's, I think it's is when it's done best, it actually is centered around individuals, you know, and who they are. And so it makes, it makes sense after you say it it's like obvious of course, like that's the way it should be done by, I feel like it's just kind of a black box for me. So thanks for interrupt that.
Speaker 4 00:33:19 Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I think the other thing with employee giving, sorry again, no, go ahead. You already self-proclaimed it's
Speaker 2 00:33:24 Actually probably very salient
Speaker 4 00:33:27 <laugh> so we thought, especially there can't be an inauthentic bone about it because you're running a campaign literally within these walls. So we were like, we want to have people representative that at our housekeeping staff, we wanna tell a story of an it manager. We wanna tell the story of a corporate person to maybe humanize them more. And when it rolled out, we knew it had the actual fund actual projects. It wasn't going to a slush fund it's it literally is gonna be in the walls. So again, like it was almost the most basic campaign. Um, but as it played out, it, it stuck be cuz people loved it. They're like, oh, I get to see what my money purchases. And you're like, again, why is that disruptive in our industry that you would expect that? Um, but it was this perfect incubator for us to see this not only is a way to show up as a good human to allow other people to feel seen and celebrate in a beautiful light, but it's also really transformation for building philanthropy around what really matters to you. And not just because
Speaker 3 00:34:24 Cultures, vibrant cultures. I mean, we, our employee retention went way up with this, you know, and not retention of giving, like staying. And it ended up being recession proof and pandemic proof. Like the fact that this campaign could still be raising, you know, nearly a million dollars a year from its employees is shocking and it's because they believe, and they truly love being a part of it and loving having their story be an integral part of what's actually happening when they come to work on the front lines. So yeah, everybody should be doing that and that's serious. And truly why we set up this company is to say, how do we democratize that? How do we share it with everybody? How do we make this open source so that we are not ha we're not trying to get millions of dollars from this. We we'll know we're winning. When people start to adopt this within their frameworks, they have healthy culture. They're making, you know, they have DEI baked into their organization. Staff have opinions and voices in building pieces, you know, there's money in the budget for professional development and innovation. These are the things that we wanna fuel as a part of what we call the impact uprising.
Speaker 2 00:35:41 We had a discussion right before we hit and, and I knew this was gonna be salient. And I think you just hit the nail on the head, Becky. And that is, we had a discussion right before we hit record around. Why does marketing feel inauthentic? And the off how moment I had while you were both talking is that I personally have been part of many, many, many endeavors, external ones, internal ones, corporate ones, small business ones. And the connection point to the communities served as the go goal for what we are trying to achieve is the things that we already know are true. How do we maximize return on investment? How do we accelerate ACV? How do we promote interest in our ownselves? And the flipping of the script that you have offered here is you actually have a more interested community around you when you focus on the things that elevate others with what you have as a business and as a leader. And, you know, therefore are you start your campaign from an entirely different perspective because what you're starting your campaigns with are what are the values we wanna represent and how can we achieve them? Not what are the outcomes we want to drive and how much money can we attach to them? Because what you're saying is actually by achieving the values, the outcomes will materialize. That's what I'm hearing you say,
Speaker 3 00:37:27 Boom, bingo, you got it. I mean, we literally said to our CEO of our, we had a very large healthcare system. There were about 10,000 employees and we, we asked him, do we have your PI permission to build something radically different? And he said, yes. And then his eyebrow workeded up. And he's like, like what? And I, and we said, there will be no dollar goal at all. Yeah. For this campaign it's gone and administration is not picking any of these projects. They're gonna be picked by the people for the people. And, and, and it's just gonna be threaded with story and PS, we want yours because it's gonna be from the bottom up and the top down and everywhere in between. And so yeah, you, you nailed it.
Speaker 2 00:38:13 It's
Speaker 4 00:38:13 Weird too, Tracy, like, yeah, that the idea of our mission is always like external. Like we're gonna get, do this mission and serve these people, you know? And I think you've gotta do some deep reflection of like your missions, how you show up inside. And especially if you're talking about a 10,000 person organization, like it's kind of critical. Like the money is not
Speaker 2 00:38:35 The biggest issue here. You're trying to steward and build relationships with 10,000 employees. So the impact of them being activated, engaged, deeper, you know, connection to the mission and all of it like is worth way more than you're ever gonna raise. And so you gotta look, it's like, you gotta zoom out that that is part of your actual mission too. Yeah. You'd be
Speaker 1 00:38:56 Surprised that he said yes. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:38:59 That was Becky. I wasn't, I was
Speaker 3 00:39:02 In on the table. I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I had some Moxy or fearlessness always has,
Speaker 2 00:39:05 But
Speaker 3 00:39:06 I just, I always have fearlessness. Um, um, I probably, cuz I don't think long enough about what could actually blow up in my face, but you know, I I think, think we just went for it and we have this kind of fearless component about, we know what works and we understand authenticity. And I mean, I'll just give an example, like a personal one. We, we did a mental health theme week on our podcast last fall, um, because we feel mental health is one of these elephants in the room that is never addressed in nonprofit. And so one of the stories that we had told that week was mine and I was very upfront and clear, um, and, and clearly very vulnerable talking about a nervous breakdown that I had within my non profit job. And it was only three years ago that I had it.
Speaker 3 00:39:59 I took a leave of absence. I talked about what led up to it. I talked about the moment that it was happening and the physical and mental and emotional things that were happening to me. And then what happened, you know, afterward, cuz it's a long journey and I get so many emails and DMS still to this day from people who are listening to the back catalog that say, that was me. And I think when you just find your bravery a little bit and you find your voice, we talked about finding your voice it's it is a freeing thing. And then it opens you up to community and to friends that you, you never would've met around the world who see themselves in your story. And so yeah, I, I just, I cannot emphasize that enough, how much it's not only been healing for me, but healing for others to see that they're not alone.
Speaker 2 00:40:53 Yeah. I admire that a lot. There, there are for even our listeners say there are elements to my story that I am selectively withholding until actually my mother dies really. There are some parts to my life that are quite brutal that I still have not talked about that I'm sorry. Only my closest friend like Tim and obviously my wife Amy know about that. They're not gonna to see the light of day because I don't wanna drag my mother through anything more, you know, but I get it and it's hard. Sorry, Tim. I talked right over your question you wanted to follow up with.
Speaker 1 00:41:29 No, I mean, um, yeah, and I, um, I'm, I think it's really important to raise that, um, raise awareness around it. Um, and I've, you know, I've struggled with my own mental health and, and doing that as a leader in a business. Um, I know what it's like to share that first hand. Um, and so, yep. Thanks for, thanks for that vulnerability. Thanks for, um, making that, uh, more normative for, for everybody. I wanna pivot here a little bit and say, I think that you, um, I think you both end up in a space where you can look forward at the ecosystem here in a way that, um, uh, uh, it, it comes from years of experience. It comes from a working with a lot of different organizations. Um, and so a question that Tracy and I have been thinking about a lot lately is how important is technology for the F future of good?
Speaker 3 00:42:36 Oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 00:42:37 In
Speaker 3 00:42:38 Wow. It's everything.
Speaker 4 00:42:38 It's everything, Becky. Okay. Jinx,
Speaker 3 00:42:40 Jinx joke. Kill me a coat. Okay. <laugh> we did not plan that. Go ahead, John. I mean for Mr. Tech,
Speaker 4 00:42:48 I mean, I'm not, but I'm a student of that. We have to embrace like we're, we're beyond the know we should already be embracing this, but I do think the next transition is going to be one that you gotta get on the bus soon. And I mean, that's, that's what we're leaning into for the future because Becky threaded of just like this idea of open source, and I do think we grew up in nonprofit in a time that it was very set around Pete, certain like people pontificating at conferences with all of their ribbons stacked beneath them to show how important they were. God us bless you for that. I grew up in that era too. <laugh> yep. So this, the, the khaki pants are gone, which is great. All those kind of things, the pleas pleated khaki pants. But I just think that there's a time now when it's like, Hey, those that were wanna come to the table, like let's share, what's working, let's support each other.
Speaker 4 00:43:39 Let's figure out how to merge. Sometimes let's figure out how to work across different missions and make it work. And tech is like gonna help empower that. I mean, we are a tech startup and some levels of the word because we haven't met in face to face some of our dearest friends, UT who included in that of, you know, the power of that. If we would've put our heels down and said, no, we're gonna do an old style podcast. You're gonna come to our studio. We would've interviewed like four people in the last year, you know, in my house, but, um, it's kind of everything. And so as we look at the horizon, what at least the horizon line that I see today, like we're embracing that and we're think about how do we make the content today, um, accessible in, in the most places where people are working today.
Speaker 4 00:44:26 Like if they're in their CRM, how is inspiration and guidance there alongside them inside their CRM? How can you have those kind of interconnection points, but at the same way, how can we make it more accessible to get more people excited to learn and grow? So we're thinking of different ways to develop shows that would appeal to different types of people and types of industries within this sector. And so tech plays a big part of all of that, and we're gonna need friends like y'all to help, uh, take our hand and tell us what we don't know, but we know that it, it has a lot of power, you know, and those that are leaning into it are those that are, that I wanna hitch my wagons too. So what do you have to add Beck?
Speaker 3 00:45:04 I, I think I'll just kind of get into my confessional and talk about what I worry about and the things that I worry about as it relates to tech and philanthropy is that it takes nonprofit so long to buy, oh my gosh. And to get on board with tech, they're so afraid of tech. And I will say I was one of them because I really think, you know, when I was growing up in the sector in like the two thousands, um, and 2010s, you know, it's been a hard 20 years. A lot of the tech was clunky. It was very, oh
Speaker 4 00:45:36 God. Yes.
Speaker 3 00:45:37 And it was hard to use it without, you know, APIs and, and attachments. And I think of, uh, just different ways that we had to like buy other tech to make other tech work. And we're like, oh my gosh, we're me. I'm a marketer. The skies is a fundraiser. I can't figure out how to get this annual giving data in here and synthesize it in a really profound way. But the thing is, and the thing that I worry about is that we see a lot of nonprofits that are still in web 1.0 and web three point OHS coming. And we're very worried about their ability to make the leap past 2.0, which really cannot. We don't think is possible. I mean, you have to build your social frameworks. You have to build global community. And so, you know, digital investing in digital is one of our biggest trends for 2022.
Speaker 3 00:46:26 However, you're doing that. It has to be a part of your business. And I will give like nonprofits a, a reason why this is gonna help you work smarter, not harder. It's going to give you an exhale and a breath, because if you can automate these systems that we're seeing that are so smart, these technologies, it is really going to accelerate again, your ability to, with the right person, to build a long term engagement with them. They're probably not even gonna be in your neighborhood, your physical neighborhood. They could be a, the other side of the world and tech is gonna get you there. And so we've gotta get out of the scarcity and the fear of that and start trying some stuff. And so we try to put tech on most into everything that we do because not as you all know, podcast listeners are learners.
Speaker 3 00:47:20 And so they want to understand. And so we're finding that our community and I'm sure yours is very similar. Their window to buy is much narrower because they're already leaned in and listening. They're open to innovation into change. They don't know what the tech is, but they're curious about it. And the reason we love you all so much is because you're finding ways to make the tech human. And that I think is if we can figure that out. I think that window to buy, to use to accelerate is going to shrink exponentially because nonprofits will see themselves reflected in that tech.
Speaker 2 00:47:58 Yeah. I see this world where it's not just the tech human, which is Tim's particular area of expertise. Like let's be clear, let's give credit where credits do Tim. Wow, that is you. Tim
Speaker 3 00:48:10 Knows his stuff.
Speaker 2 00:48:11 You brought me on board to help you with that. But this is, that's your thing. And the thing that I really try to focus on is the other side of that coin. And that is, you know, who are the businesses that making that tech possible and, and how are they aligning to where the ecosystem is going and what are, are the shape of things to come for them as businesses and the, and the commonality, by the way, between both sides of that coin is you have to start with a different type of alignment than is currently supported by the market. And sometimes that alignment is an alignment of money. Sometimes that alignment is an alignment of values. And sometimes that alignment is an alignment of humanity, but none of that alignment is next quarters, ACV numbers. And I think, yes, that is where the world is going. And profit consumers are consumers that are buying on those values that feel profoundly challenging to folks, even like me, cuz you know, you're talking about going up in the early S you know, I navigating hardware VPNs between national offices was where, where I got my website
Speaker 3 00:49:31 And dream Weaver and
Speaker 1 00:49:32 Learning. Oh. And I thought about dream Weaver in, so, oh my
Speaker 2 00:49:37 Gosh, I just, you know, back, even then you wanted to claw your eyes out, but you knew there was no alternative. And now there are alternatives everywhere. And I think that's what scares people is. There are alternatives everywhere. So when you see alternatives to you everywhere, you're gonna need jerk to the same behavior. That's gotten you where you are because you at least know you can predict on it.
Speaker 3 00:50:04 Oh, that's no,
Speaker 1 00:50:05 It's interesting. What, what you're talking about comes full circle in a way, because I think when I, if you, if you just listen to the words that we've used around, uh, the emotional words we've used around technology, um, there's a lot of fear there's concern there is. Right. You know? Um, and, and so I, I feel like one of the, one of the things that happened for me is that I feel like I see the power of the good side of it. So I think right now our orientation is the negative emotions around technology. And I'm midstream on a blog around how important emotions are in terms of data quality. So those, those two things align fascinating. And you know, it's not about APIs. It is so much more around the emotions, expectations, and experience of what with users. And, uh, and so I just, I feel like there is just like, you feel like marketing, uh, can be so positive and powerful and good.
Speaker 1 00:51:18 Um, I feel that way about the emotions related to technology. And when you can, when you can take those emotions and point them in a positive, direct around technology, you can open up new worlds for nonprofits, but it starts not with better tech. It starts with a better mindset around yes, yes. What can this, it's not, what can it do? I, I, I, I know that's important, but it is actually how, like, how do I feel about this is a, a more important question around outcomes than what does this technology accomplish? And we've, we've just been so focused on technology as outcome instead of the, the ways that technology and the fear around it and the expense of it. A lot of the, a lot of the fears around it expense. And so one way to do that is to take the expense off. You can make change in your existing technology with your existing team and that, you know, you're already paying for all of that. So if you can, if you can see gains with what you have, there's no additional expense on that. Um, so anyway, I know that's my
Speaker 2 00:52:29 One other ways funding technology capacity, but that's been my high horse for 20 years. <laugh> sure. Yeah. I mean, no, really like I've been, I used to get angry at philanthropists and I love that you started taking it back to this. Like I used to get angry cuz you wrote a love letter and I got angry and that said something about me as a person. <laugh> because
Speaker 3 00:52:53 I was, I'm gonna write you a love letter, Traci from Becky to Traci <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:52:57 Oh, you know, if you're a philanthropist, there are very few and there are some, and there are incredible leaders that I can point to who are changing the shape of philanthropy around how nonprofits are funded. But you know, the bigger picture hasn't shifted much. And that is still frustrating to me because what I wanna see are nonprofit technologists who make a living wage. So I don't feel like I need to jump to a corporate job to make a six figure salary and do good in the world. And similarly, you know, we've gotten in this mindset as businesses serving nonprofits that we should do business as usual serving nonprofits. And that's actually not serving the ecosystem at large either. So you know, what is acquired is a whole scale reevaluation of how we serve and a convening of new ways to support the stuff that we've been talking about for the past hour, because in its absence, we'll all do fine, but there's this better place we can be.
Speaker 3 00:54:04 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:54:04 And I, that is the vision that I see coming out of the work that we are for. Good does. And why it's been really great to just spend an hour with you too today.
Speaker 3 00:54:15 Thank you guys for saying that. I think it's, I think it's an output of what you do it now. It matters and why it matters. And I love that we're having this conversation because it already tells me that that times are changing and that people are ready. And I'll tell you why. I think this even matters to for profit it's because giving is now an identity. Yes. And I mean, before, before we were like giving was something nice to do. And then we were doing our co cooperate, social responsibility thing. I think gen Z is going to bring so much hope and innovation into this sector because giving and doing good is core to who they are. And so, and here's just like a quick example. I have an 11 year old who loves the environment and the other day I was visiting with her and I said, if I could give you a hoodie, um, and cuz she's a real sports sports girl.
Speaker 3 00:55:11 And I said, if you could have any color, you want any design or I could give you a ocean Conservancy sweatshirt, which one would you wear? And without a breath, you know, missing a breast, she says, I want the ocean Conservancy one because that tells P people who I am Nike. Doesn't tell people who I am. And so I'm seeing this shift and that's Jen alpha. So you can see what gen Z is doing as it kind of relates. And this technology boom that we're in because these kids, my kids included have technology at their finger to, and they can find what matters to them. So if corporations, I think need to pay attention because not only is philanthropy icing on the cake or our, you know, our corporate social responsibility, it is baked in to who we are now. And we're seeing gen Z start to create monthly budget for their philanthropy. They're already going into college classes to try to figure out how to save the environment. They are wired differently. And I honestly believe it. It brings a lot of hope and promise into our sector. We're watching it really closely.
Speaker 4 00:56:23 I'm glad that that's more popular than like the starter. I keep thinking of like the starter jackets that were cool growing up and butter past that.
Speaker 1 00:56:29 Oh my gosh. Jacket
Speaker 2 00:56:30 Becky. I was thinking actually of Benton, but that's a
Speaker 3 00:56:33 Whole oh, Benton. Yeah. All the different colors. Yeah, totally. The
Speaker 2 00:56:37 United colors of Benton.
Speaker 6 00:56:39 <laugh> God.
Speaker 1 00:56:41 So last, last question here, and thank you so much for all, all of what you've been saying, what you talk about, what you're up to and speaking of what you're up to and capacity, I, I am really excited about what you are doing with Weir for good pro. And, um, I, I wonder if you could say a little bit about what it is, is where it's going, what people can expect on it.
Speaker 4 00:57:06 Thank you. I mean, it is kind of our first step in reflecting back after spending a year, making friends and growing the community around we year for good. We wanted to create a platform that we didn't see in the world. You know, a place that you could make accessible trainings and kind of the best thought leaders and real time. And so we've curated our friends that we can now call friends in the sector that are disruptive, that are not teaching old school mentalities, but what works right now and we're dropping in live coaching. So members of we are for good pro can join us live and ask thought leaders, their questions. I mean, it's like getting to, um, tap the brains of some of the most brilliant people, but also finding community among each other. So we are for good pro we're dropping new content monthly, and it's, it's been so fun. Like we geek out getting to meet people in real life, filming these things. It's so great.
Speaker 3 00:57:54 I mean, we just are building the things that we wanted to see. We see so much low hanging fruit, so much ability in our sector. And you know, if we're being entirely so efficient and honest right now, it's we wanted to build a learning platform where again, the future leaders of nonprofit in 10 years, we want them to think this is the only way to, to go about making connections about fundraising, about leveraging tech, about bringing everyone to the table, this the sort of old pay misogynistic ways, power dynamics of the fundraising sector. There's some great hallmarks there and some great bedrock, but wow. It is ripe for innovation. And we think that if we can teach tomorrow's leaders, it, now it's going to be paying and reaping benefits for decades to come. So that's, there's our big carry, audacious dream for you with
Speaker 4 00:58:47 Pro I know y'all believe in this too, but it's like professional. Development's probably the highest ROI thing in your budget. I mean, you know? Yeah. And, and first thing you can walk away and the first thing cut. Yeah. And so such an opportunity and the people that you're gathered, there are fellow growth minded people, and it's just, it's encouraging place to spend your time. So
Speaker 2 00:59:05 By the way, when you don't invest in professional development for your staff, they, you know, leave your nonprofit, become consultants, maybe do some stuff in an ecosystem for a while, go work for a big corporate entity and then wind up having a podcast. So
Speaker 3 00:59:20 I think the four of us are living crews of all of that.
Speaker 1 00:59:22 Absolutely.
Speaker 4 00:59:25 So maybe you shouldn't just to get more of this
Speaker 1 00:59:27 Happen way. Yeah. We'll take
Speaker 3 00:59:29 You <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:59:31 Yeah. Um, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for all the work that you're doing. And, uh, we can't wait to see, uh, we can't wait to see, what's not,
Speaker 3 00:59:41 Oh my gosh. Love you guys. Super excited. So thank you for having us keep doing what you're doing. We're just gonna like build our own little sandbox and build some really cool shit over there. So I'm excited about
Speaker 1 00:59:52 It. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:59:53 That's
Speaker 4 00:59:54 Great. And yeah, they're coming to our podcast soon, so we can't wait to see you there too, but thank you for inviting us.
Speaker 2 00:59:58 Oh, that's right. We are. That's good. Super duper for
Speaker 1 01:00:01 Be super fun. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 01:00:03 Sort of, uh, CW crisis on infinite earth happening here.
Speaker 3 01:00:07 <laugh> that's it. We're gonna put you in the hot seat this time. So get ready. Let's wait for it.
Speaker 4 01:00:12 <laugh>
Speaker 1 01:00:13 Standing. We're ready. I'm ready. Be great. Uh, thank you. Thank you.
Speaker 2 01:00:17 You
Speaker 4 01:00:17 Guys. Thank you
Speaker 2 01:00:19 Folks, Tim and I were so excited to have this conversation with John and Becky today, and it connects to so much of what we try to bring to the forefront in our conversations, particularly for you as business leaders and insiders, who really are doing the best work in the world. So if you want to of see more episodes about putting humans at the center of our decision, making, check out our past episodes with Mallory Erickson, Christine Priester, and Marni Webb.
Speaker 1 01:00:54 We're excited to let you know that we are for good has launched a professional development subscription called we are for good pro, which includes the leadership from cutting edge nonprofit professionals. But wait, there's more
Speaker 2 01:01:08 <laugh>. As you know, Tim and I are both incredibly excited about pond join pond.com as a new community. That levels the power dynamic between nonprofit technologists and technology providers, including our gap from we are for good. And right now, and you cannot double coupon these. So you do need to pick one. You can either get $100 in pond credit and apply it towards three months of we are for good pro, or if you sign up for a one year subscription for, we are for good pro, you can get a hundred dollars in pond credit looking forward to seeing you in the water folks.
Speaker 1 01:01:48 I'm Tim Lockey,
Speaker 8 01:01:49 I'm Tracy croak, and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 1 01:01:54 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
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