Black in Tech with Darrell Booker

Speaker 0 00:00:06 Hi folks. Welcome. Uh, this is another edition of why it matters. My name is Tracy <inaudible> I'm director of innovation here at now. It matters I'm tin Lockie. Thanks for joining us CEO here at now. It matters the way that I want to tee up our conversation today is slightly different than we've done in the past. Uh, our guests, your out is someone we've already heard from once, and he's got the distinguishing factor of being the first person we've had twice on. Now. It matters. And why that is, is because we talked a lot about the Microsoft nonprofit tech acceleration at, you know, the last time we recorded after we turned off the recording, Darrelle made one comment and set up by the way, everyone I'm going to have me back to talk about being black in tech I'm game for it. Uh, and we remembered that. Speaker 0 00:01:04 So here we are with DRL again, and it's an important moment for both everything that's going on in our world, including the anniversary of the George Floyd protests. But it's also an important moment to understand that there's a lot of context around what it means to be any form of underrepresented in it. And my only hope for today is that for folks listening, what you get out of this is deeper context than you generally have an exposure to at any level of operating in the world of it. And that's it. Uh, I don't know Tim, if you have anything to add, but I want to throw it over to you. Darale to sort of kick us off, maybe update us on what's going on and tell us, you know, tell us, I guess, start with telling us like that comment, what was going through your head in that comment? Wow, I'll start there. Speaker 1 00:02:03 Well, well thank you both for having me, uh, once again, my name is Darnell Booker, AKA your tech, his favorite techie, uh, AK. I was told I'm a computer person with the mission, uh, and, and, and some other title that I, that I love to use. Um, but I don't know. I think what came out of that conversation is, and this is something that I've been saying for awhile. And, um, you know, when I look out into, uh, say the tech community, um, I don't, I don't have any role models in the tech community that, that looked like me. Uh, let's say that, uh, I'm not saying that there are not any, uh, listen to what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, uh, there's no, w w we're not put in positions, uh, to be able to be heard and to be able to give our opinions, um, like I feel say white do. Speaker 1 00:03:00 Um, and it's always been that way from me from, you know, the age of whatever, 12, 13, when I first got into it, there was no black person in tech that I looked up to. There was a, a huge period of time where I hit my geekness because it was not cool. It was not something to do. None of my other friends were doing. And, you know, they, you know, they couldn't relate to what I was doing because they too did not see, uh, that kind of role model. So I think what prompted me to say that is, you know, being thankful for you all in this platform, to be able to have whatever conversation we have last time, but then also being able to have a platform to talk about some things that, you know, like you said, some people may be unaware of because they're not experiencing. Speaker 1 00:03:48 Um, and, and also for, you know, all the other possible derails out there to let you know, Hey, you're not alone. Uh, you know, uh, you know, how can we, you know, start to build some collective voice? You know, uh, if, if I can be, we use this word last night and once they'd be a vessel, if I can be that vessel for understanding and things of that sort, uh, you know, I want to use this moment in time. Um, sometimes you have a small window and you got to kind of capitalize on it now, and it's sad to say that, you know, as a black man period in America, we, including tech, uh, you know, there's this notion of, uh, you gotta hurry up and do something for that news cycle changes. Yes. You know what I mean? So when we think of the heels of the, you know, the anniversary of Kevin and George Floyd, the attention, you know, this, this, that I've never seen so many people with DNI titles in my life, like just out of the woodwork, like all this attention, all of these programs, all these things, et cetera, you know, every black person, you know, older than the age of 14 or 15 is in not even that far in the back of their mind, but in the middle of their mind saying this isn't going to last that long. Speaker 1 00:05:10 You know, th th th the attention and all this is not going to last as long. So I say all that to say, you know, when I, when I made that comment, it was like a little window is getting smaller and smaller and smaller. And if I have opportunity to, you know, say something that someone hears that, you know, trigger something and trigger something, something, you know, uh, I just loved the opportunity. So that's kind of, I guess, how we got back here today, Speaker 0 00:05:38 There is like 50 things that I want to dig in on. Uh, I think, okay. So the two things that came top of mind as you were talking are, or one, you know, there's a little frustration there, right? And I think that is, you know, you're in a space where you're like, you know, it's relieving enough to be able to express the very real frustration that happens. And I think what I want to dig into is the fact that the other thing that I have observed that I want to see your take on is that not only do we not have this sort of set of role models that you're talking about, but by the time somebody gets to the point where they could be a role model, two things seem to happen by my observation. One is they're exhausted, like literally exhausted because they're doing two jobs and two there's this crushing weight of the normative cultures and the normative performance metrics that operate around them that not only contribute to that exhaustion, but they also have to actually mimic in order to get where they need to be, to be a role model for the next generation. Speaker 1 00:07:07 I want to time it absolutely facts, the exhausting part. Um, I know for me, you know, you get like, you know, those times I just kinda get defeated and be like, you know, you know, what am I doing this for? What is, this is, this is nothing's going to change. You know, you do get exhausted. Uh, a, you know, I, I, I live for those moments when, you know, something happens. They gave me that new, that new, that new energy on my back. And it's like, I can go, uh, off camera. I told y'all I was feeling great today. I feel that I want an eight I'm on cloud 8.5. And it's this ties into so much of what you said. I had a very impromptu conference. This was so very impromptu conversation, uh, with, uh, someone wrote to be famous. And they, I have to tell you another time who that person is, how it happened. Speaker 1 00:08:00 And after conversation and seeing something, whatever, they send me a text message. And they said, you're a real one too. And what they said by that is, is, is directly what your last comment was, Darrelle. You're not out here doing these things and then conforming, you know, you having to do all the things. And then you're conforming to some model of a person just in order to get things done. You're saying to yourself, no, what I'm going to be 100% meet and be authentic as I can, and genuine to be me. So back to your point, Tracy, yes, those that may end up giving, you know, elevated to, to, to, to, to possibly be that visible role model. They're no longer real ones. You follow them getting that they morphed into said other person, you know what I mean? So they, and, and, and I guess for, you know, if we think of, uh, you know, the black community I'll have to say black and brown often, often, you know, lump us together for a, for a lot of reasons. Speaker 1 00:09:08 You know, a lot of places around this country where I grew, you know, between black, Latin, X, we were all together. You know, I'll tell you this real quick. I was talking to a guy and I asked him his ethnicity. He said, I'm Dominican, but before he can even barely get that out, he said, but a DRL I'm black as you. And I was like, you, you know what? I know that because that, that's how I grew up. So I kind of come with that mindset, uh, you know, uh, but I say all that to say, you know, within that community, we can spot those fake ones. So even if it's, it's almost like there's probably somebody listening to say, well, no, such as saucers, all role model in tech, you'll start your son. And I could probably come back and tell you not, he, he he's fake, she's fake. Speaker 1 00:09:51 They know they're that they're, they're, they're not what, you know, uh, our community is really looking for, or really, you know, need. And some people that we can be able to say, you know what, uh, you know, they are showing me that there's a path. Uh, so we just, I don't know, we just need more, more, more platforms to be able to have the real ones be able to, uh, you know, you know, really let the world know, you know, as a black community, what our struggles are, you know, what we need, uh, and how we can work together. Like, you know what I mean? Um, yeah. Uh, I, I feel myself going down a hole on some tangent on some other things. I'm a hold back a little bit. So Speaker 0 00:10:41 If I could take a stab at it, like there's two things happening at the same time, right. Once a person gets to that point, you know, suddenly whatever entities out there is like, look, we have a black executive look, look, we're putting our black executive right on the front lines. And that actually on a personal level also puts that person in a really hard place. Right, right. Because you're like, great. You know, and, and, you know, as a sidebar, like I see this now happening in California with Caitlyn Jenner. Right. Because people are like, ah, Tracy look like there's like, uh, you know, Caitlyn Jenner. And I'm like, okay, look, you don't know what that looks like on the inside of the LGBT community. You don't really know what that actually means. Right. And I think what you're, you're picking out. The second thing that I want to dig in on is what you're picking out is black is not a monolith. Speaker 0 00:11:39 African-American is not a monolith. Brown is not a monolith, but, you know, right before we press record, we were talking about the idea that, you know, white folks look at these communities and they're like your monolithic, clearly, you almost want the same thing. And by the way, we can only conceive of what you want within the framework of what feels safe and comfortable for us, for you to want as a black, brown African-American person. Right. But if you study the formation of social movements, you see very clearly there's intra community politics that never gets surfaced. That adds an additional layer to how you're perceiving your work in your own job. Speaker 1 00:12:26 Uh, so, so much facts. I mean, it, you know, oftentimes people will say, you know, Hey, I get it. You know, I want to help, you know, and, and, and, and, and in their mind, they're completely convinced, but once whatever that help is ultimately affects them, then it's no longer, Hey, you know, well, we don't want to go that far. You know, we're not, we're not going to do that. And what you said is so true because on the outside, looking in and let's get really clear, white America, black American outside, looking in, you know, if it's white American saying, okay, we want to help, like you said, there's this, there's this picture, or this idea conceive of how I, we can help your following. Getting that convinced to the level of, I know this is how we help. This is, this is it. This is how to do it. Speaker 1 00:13:26 Once they start to get here and then find out to your point, because their intro community differences and said, plan that you have, isn't going to work exactly that way. You need to do some pivoting. There's the fall back at that point, that is when the fallback happens. And, you know, it is really stemming from not enough of, you know, wanting to, and this is extending across all races, genders, sexuality, everything is not enough of just truly wanting to understand before you even come with what your fixes understand, roll, roll out to the community, be there wherever you gotta do. If you feel like you're not safe, and you need to figure out some way to be safe and understanding whatever you got to do, to be able to understand what is truly needed, do that, and then come back with a proposed solution. Speaker 0 00:14:22 Yeah. I mean, why I help is like avatar, right? Like that's the plot in the movie avatar. Sorry, go ahead. Speaker 2 00:14:31 No, no, that's fine. Um, and I just, I want to say as a person that is going to never escape my whiteness, I just don't see that ever happening. And I also don't feel like I need to, uh, actually what I want to do is exactly what you're talking about is to how to understand what I find is that, uh, and Tracy has been a tutor to me for years in this is helping me in, in that understanding process, not have to hold power as I'm doing the understanding, which means you just have to constantly be telling herself as a white person. Like you, you know, you have to pay attention to intent versus outcomes and completely keep talking to yourself about how, Hey, what you're looking for is an outcome that you care about and the, and the motivations to get there. And the outcomes have to just, uh, sometimes just not be aligned for part of that. And you just have to kind of live in that tension that I find still really difficult. Um, you know, uh, and I just think that that's important for, as you're talking about learning how to understand and how to listen. I was thinking it's really important to do that well, Speaker 1 00:15:56 And I'm going to say something. Uh, so, you know, when you think about learning to understand the easiest way that I can think of it is, and, and I don't know, this is extremely acceptable on the larger scale. And I say that to say, um, I don't know, pick any foreign country really far. And, you know, you wanted to, you know, do something or travel there or whatever. It's, it's this whole thing of, you know, let's go embrace the culture. You know, let's go to authentic places. Let's talk to people let's really get to that real understanding level around any and everything. And with super acceptance of the way they may dress or talk or eat, or w we're so accepting of that. But when we look at this country, we don't even do that on that level. And it really, really, really just, just grinds everything in me when, uh, I'm we get real here too, is I feel like, and I think this really goes back to some deep shit years ago, when in the hundreds of years ago, however long ago, when, you know, blacks were just seen as entertainment, you know, dance for us, same for us. Speaker 1 00:17:16 You know what I mean? And I'm going to say something and I don't care who disagrees with me, but I don't think a lot changed with that. And I'm going to tell you why it grinds my soul every time when I'm bored, but I go to sleep, uh, Politik top, and I can see middle-age why women dancing to the latest Meg, the stallion, this whatever, wrapping certain lyrics from certain rappers, et cetera. It's cool to embrace the culture to that extent, because it's, it's, it's, it's entertaining for you and you're using it to entertain others, but, you know, can, uh, how can anything, I can't even think of anybody's name right now, but will you hire one of them if they wrote up at your job and you, as in a hiring position, you know what I mean, where you do that, are you acceptable? Speaker 1 00:18:20 If they come knock on your door and say, I want to take your daughter out for a date, you know, are you going to be cool if they became your next door, neighbors, you know, all these things. And it, it really still just really, you know, ups upsets me that, you know, as, as black people, we, we, we're not respected and value for everything that we have and not really seeing that, you know, uh, you know, who we are and our culture is okay. And that, you know, yeah. Uh, I don't even know what to say. Speaker 0 00:19:03 You're digging into something that I think is super important to call out. And that is, it's this minstrel show trope, right? And if you look at something like a history of jazz, if you look at something like the history of blues, jazz, and blues arose, because it was the only way of expressing that frustration, that anger, and then that sadness, and then it immediately got co-opted same thing, by the way, with hip hop, if you dig into the early, you know, look at what happened in New York city with like the cross Bronx expressway, with like how that decimated the world in New York, the same thing happened by the way. So what I hear you saying is sometimes, and not even sometimes frequently, I only feel as valued in this world, as I am able to perform for you digging into this trope, that's existed for a hundred or more years. Speaker 0 00:20:07 And by the way, this trope was created out of like the darkest period of American history, because it was the only place where there was safety in the reconstruction. Yup. Yup. That's what I'm hearing you saying. And that is so while you can be you, what it takes for you to be you is an enormous amount of blocking, maneuvering and being like, no way, no, how am I going to accept this bullshit? And there's a price you pay. And if that price is not your career, it's your mental health and sanity. That's what I'm hearing you say. Speaker 1 00:20:45 Facts, facts, facts, facts, effects. Yup. Now there, there, there, there's a huge price you pay. You're exactly right. I couldn't have said it better. Couldn't have said it. Speaker 2 00:20:57 And you see, when you say blocks and maneuvering, help, help those of us who don't have the block maneuver, um, spell out what that spell out, what that looks like. Um, cause I think I know, but for people who may not, and that may include me, what does, what does that mean? And I said, Tracy, but Speaker 0 00:21:18 I think Darryl, you should answer this. I can chime in, but you should answer. Speaker 1 00:21:24 I want you to go and, and, and then I'm gonna go second. Speaker 0 00:21:26 Right? I cannot speak from the black experience in America. I can very much speak from the gender queer experience in America right now. I made it, I mean, honestly, to be candid, I made it a fucking point 10 years ago to be like, I'm not going to show up and be your traditional woman in tech. I wear men's clothing to meetings. I make it a point to wear a fucking tie. I feel better being me. And when I feel better being me, when I am able to express me and all that, that in genders, right. Clothing to pronouns to, you know, whatever. Right. I perform better. And I know I can do better. Now, the problem is, is that showing up like that in genders, a discussion first about who I am and why I'm there that way before I can even perform. And in the context of a lot of it, culture, that discussion never progresses to the performance because people are like, got it. Speaker 0 00:22:39 You're the diversity person. Let's talk about other stuff. Now. That's what blocking and maneuvering looks like to me, because I actually had that moment of darkness at one point with the kids, unfortunately. And I was like, yo, I got my hair cut recently. Right? I have this nice, like a line Bob thing going on, whatever, you know? And I said, if it weren't for the fact that I was trying to maintain my it career through 55 or 60, I would fucking do an Annie Lennox, 1984 hair cut and never again wear women's clothing, but like, that's not gonna get me where I need to be in my career. Because then that makes the discussion about why am I doing that? Not what I'm able to offer you. So blocking and maneuvering for me looks like finding a compromise that works for other people, even though I know the things that worked for me better are, you know, available to me, Speaker 1 00:23:37 Uh, well put and you know, very similar blocking and maneuvering. Uh, I think the one thing you said that was so key, it's like, you know, you want to show up in a way that, you know, you feel the best and that then you can be your best person. Uh, but you know, when you feel like you got to go into a room and the odds are already stacked against you, the second you walk in, you follow them. Getting that for me, for me, it started re I had like a double whammy and stuff because, you know, full-time at what age of 17 full-time job in tech, you know, working with the state 17. So you black, you had a full-time job at 17 working tech it's full-time job at 17, started coding, correct at 17, you know, full benefits. And, and all of the people that were around me were, you know, at least more than twice my age, you know what I mean? Speaker 1 00:24:39 It's stated if you ever worked a state agency, it's like, it's literally hard to get fired. Like you could stay there till you literally kill over people that are there. So it's like I'm young, you know, I'm black and, you know, having to feel like I have to just, you know, come in as this, this, this perfect figure or thing that you know, that they're looking for, because I already know there's some things that I can't, I can't change. And these, so these are two things that are, is to me, the second I walk in the room, you know what I'm saying? And you know, it got to a time and I don't know if he said Tracy's Tammy, I think he said 10 years or something. You, you, you mentioned that it came a point for me that I realized it was two times one, what the hell am I doing all this for conforming? Speaker 1 00:25:32 Because at the end of the day, really still even making that much difference, you know, elements of darkness. That's why I I'm doing all this. And I still ain't getting to where I need to be. So I might as well just show up for myself. And then I think also for me, and this is what I really want. I really like to talk to young people when I hear this is, you know, once you get to that point of confidence around who you are, what you have up here, you know, it really starts to, you know, uh, you know, change your thinking of, uh, you know, being your 100% authentic self. You know what I mean? I used to have an argument with someone all the time. Cause you, especially not in tech. And it's like, you know, tech is that one field, one field, you start to, you know, dress down. Speaker 1 00:26:21 You know what I mean? And I got to the point and no offense to anyone. I didn't want to wear the white man uniform anymore. You know, the blue shirt with the khaki pants. I don't want to wear that. That's not me. You know what I'm saying? So I started to wear like, you know, whatever that was, or they can come with t-shirts I can come with t-shirts and you know, you can come with sneakers. I can come with sneakers. They gonna look different, but they sneakers, you know what I mean? So once I started to, to, to kinda start to saying to myself, you know, what, if everybody else can show up to be them, I need to, I can show up and start being me. You know what I mean? And it, and you mentioned something about your mental, it plays some fucking mental games with you. Speaker 1 00:27:03 You know what I mean? I feel like out of work, I'm a different person, but then I got to go to work and be someone else, you know? Um, as, as y'all looking and see fully, I don't see the sleeves, whatever. So the evolution of me and, you know, fuck the blocking and mover maneuvering is, you know, tattoo, all the tattoos I had were undershirts. You couldn't see them, you know what I mean? You know, and then I never forget this very first one. I got this really small and it was in honor of, uh, uh, one of my homeys that dad is my bird. First one, there's little, it just a six letter says LTB, E D was stands for live the dream every day and is here because it's something that I want to remember as I get up and go hard every day. Speaker 1 00:27:47 But when I just had this little one, I was self constantly like that first time I had to have a short sleeve one in his tattoo. Cause you wanna to know why young black man, and man, he got tattoos like, oh my God, like, you know what I mean? It's it, it fucks with you so much, but then it got to that point to where it's like, I'm not going to let others, you know, do this to me, make me feel a certain way. If you value me and my skills and what I have to bring, what I got on my arm, as long as it's not offensive, which it is, it should mean a hill of beans to what we about to do on his computer, you know, or what we bought to build or et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, uh, yeah. Uh, and it's, I mean, it's still, it's, it's still continues to this day. Uh, and you know, I mean, for all of us, including me, um, and you know, even though I felt like I have a lot of experience in, in saying, you know, uh, you know, I'm going to be very much, you know, authentic, and I try to do that every day, but it's still those little bit of times when, like, you know what I mean? I gotta, I gotta do a little bit of that blocking maneuver just because, so Speaker 0 00:29:04 I had a colleague, um, when I was working at a previous job, I'm not going to say who were aware, but we had a ritual, uh, and she was very highly placed, like very highly placed at this organization. And I wasn't, I, I had just started and, um, but yet we experienced the same frustrations, uh, with the same people and the same circumstances. And we fell into a rhythm where we would go to one of these tiny little offices. That's like maybe even half the size of the room that I'm in now close the door and just like scream and fucking shout and just like, let it all out. Right. And just be like, hi, Kat fucking bullied. So, and so dead that like, and the problem is is that when you're not experiencing those frustrations, you don't need those moments. And what I hear you clearly pointing out is that, you know, black and tech is still a performance until people stop making assumptions about the black experience. Speaker 0 00:30:20 Uh, and, and that black experience is just as wide and deep. You know, you made some comments about like your friend who's from the Dominican Republican, right. Was like, I am just as black as you. Right. That's a thing that's the Afro-Caribbean experience as related to Latinos and the historically black community in America. Right? Like I am benefit of the fact that I have black Republican friends who are actually super involved in the party and that is a whole nother layer of what it means to be black in America and what they tell me about. And, you know, I was riding on the chairlift with one of them this year who was just absolutely in tears because he's like, I have believed in this party and Trump is killing me, you know, and you know, what we assume to be is not how everybody is able to show up. So the question I have is let's assume that there's CEOs or SVPs or, or, you know, anybody listening to this, what do you tell a white CEO that actually needs to change that you can't say in that performance framework? What do they need to do different? Speaker 1 00:31:44 Uh, wow. Uh, I mean, it's a little bit of a laundry list. Um, I think in the organization, you know, representation is, is kind of first, uh, if you, if you're not having enough of that diverse workforce, I don't even know if you can even do anything on once you start to address that, because what CEOs, a lot of times, uh, are under the false assumption is they can solely make a proclamation. And then they're expecting that it's getting all the way down to the, to the little guy. And when you have all of his middle management, which is the same good old boy network that was there before you made say a proclamation, it does nothing. It does nothing. And you know, that is hands down, the first thing that you need to address. And, you know, what does that look like? Is that really, you know, saying, you know, oh, well we can't just hire a bunch of people. Speaker 1 00:32:47 Okay, well maybe you need to take a hard look at organizational structures. You know, is there someone that is black that, you know, honestly can just be brought up a level? You know what I mean? And now they're in those peer conversations with said people that, you know, previously was giving them a lot of microaggressions and, and, and some oppression and all that. Now they're now they're at this peer level. I mean, I think, you know, just even looking at, you know, where, where you are, what your leadership looks like is hands down, you know, the, the, the first thing, um, oh man. And then it has to be, you know, a lot of genuine, and I don't even want to use the word dialogue, but, you know, just genuine understanding, uh, you know, and, and, and back to that, embrace it in the culture. Speaker 1 00:33:37 You know, this sooner, you know, uh, said, CEO can understand what, you know, the demographic of his workforce, what matters to them, putting them first over profits or anything else that's going to be when you actually see that change inside. And it's going to take a hard look, it's gonna take, you know, looking at everything across the board. I just mentioned positions. You need to look at the salaries too. I'm gonna get on this one, because this is something that we, as black in tech struggle with is just, uh, equal pay. And what I believe is stems from is, you know, tech is, is very much that kind of field where, uh, you know, it's, how can I put it? You know, you don't need a degree, as long as you got the experience and you can get in and you can get a job and you can do these things. Speaker 1 00:34:36 That's a lot of, you know, uh, unknown a lot of times into, uh, what people actually do. And I said that to say, you know, say you're in this position, you have a manager. And whether that manager's a real techie or not, and then you have the team. And a lot of times that manager doesn't have a fucking clue as to what it really takes for those said, tech people to do the job. They have no clue. You follow what I'm saying, because they don't have the domain expertise to inform their decision-making. Right. So what ends up happening is is you have really, really great black talent that is doing a amazing work. They're working harder because we always got to prove ourselves. We're raising our hand, doing more, we're working longer hours. We're doing all the things that said a white counterpart, but, but, but, but the pay looks drastically different, drastically different. Speaker 1 00:35:36 And, and that days to be addressed ASAP, because, you know, until, you know, we can feel like we are valued and this didn't come from me. I'm gonna say this. And I, I put out a disclaimer, I'm not talking about any particular current or former employer. This is an aggregation of my 20 plus years in tech since the age of 17. But you know, one of the most defeating things is getting up and going to work on a daily basis. And you feel like you're not being valued. And you feel like you're being taken advantage of, and imagine the combo of that because, you know, good and well, you are doing unbelievable amount of work, and you're not, you're in this. And it's not about being rich, just value me and compensate me no different than you would anybody else, you know what I mean? Speaker 1 00:36:32 And, and, and the fact that organizations don't take the necessary steps to correct it, it may be one of those situations. Someone came and said job, and you didn't know, and maybe they're outperforming and they're doing more things. Well, you need to reevaluate because guess what if you had now, what that job looks like in the great work that, that great black man or woman is doing, if you had to replace them and you're brought in a white person to do that, they going to demand to be at a certain salary, and guess what? You're going to give it to them. No question, because you're going to look at them and you're going to say, yeah, yeah, you do deserve that, but you've got a person in the road doing it, but you don't want to give it to them. It makes absolutely no sense. Speaker 0 00:37:22 The peer level thing, for folks who may not be familiar with how large entities work, um, this isn't a small business thing where everybody's kind of like rolling up their sleeves and doing work. The peer level thing is incredibly important. I think for folks to understand, and that is there's a hierarchy and pecking order, and your title opens up doors to getting your work done. And what you're talking about is a phenomenon known as under leveling, where it's like, well, we got, you know, derail or Tracy as a manager. Like they should be fricking grateful that their manager, you know, the problem here is we're doing the work of a senior director and the kind of negotiation necessary between teams, departments, and resources that we get involved with necessitates that title for us to actually do our job, which we're already doing at a lower level and a lower pay, because we're supposedly grateful to be here, but don't actually get the recognition for, and that demand of like, well, you a white person, and you're going to come in and be like, well, of course you should be a senior director. Cause that's what that work is. Right? Right. There's an assumption there around that gratitude that I think is universal frustrating. And it's holding back the entire it industry. If you, if you want my own opinion, Speaker 1 00:38:57 You're painting a spot on rifle. Is it other words we're here is, is like you, the word we use is, is, is you better be lucky that that is the feeling we get, you know, you're lucky that you have what you have, you know what I mean very much. And, and, and I you're spot on. And I think sometimes it's, you know, that is, it is portrayed in that way. Uh, I was telling someone that was part of something of the day is, you know, like you said, Tracy, at that manager level, and you're doing all those fabulous things, you're expected to do all those fabulous things and do them perfectly. Speaker 0 00:39:35 Oh yeah. Cause God forbid you make a mistake or, or make a miscalculation. Right, Speaker 1 00:39:40 Right. <inaudible> is baffling and how they could lose sight of all the things that you're doing above and beyond, like you said, at the senior director and all of that, but we'll hold a smallest thing over your head to keep you to hold you back. Happens all day, all day, all day, all day, all day. Speaker 0 00:40:04 And sometime that thing is not even visible to you until the assumption about your work has already been made. Speaker 1 00:40:10 Sorry, me and I will say something to, you know, you know what, you know what pisses me off two and a smaller organizations, you know, it's, it's, I started to understand a little bit more, but when you get to some organizations, the person that is holding you back, they act like it's actually their money. And I say that to say, you get to a certain side of the organization and it's like, dude, you have, like, I'm asking you to pay me out of your, out of your, out of your, out of your checkbook. Like, why are you giving so much resistance so that I can have a decent life? You know what I mean? Like you do. You know what I mean? It blows, it blows my mind. And I think it's, it's also, uh, also very deflating when you know, things happen and it's a slap in the face because we can clearly see, oh, but you did that though. Speaker 1 00:41:14 Oh, but you spend money on that, you know, very easy to know which appears making what up. Oh. But, oh, but <inaudible>, you don't necessarily want to compare to others, but you know, when things get presented to you as absolutely not possible, but you see mountains being moved in other cases, and then you got to come home and say, well, what the fuck am I doing wrong? What else, what else do you know what I mean? And then, and the constant where you need to do this, you need to do this. You need to do that. Okay. You do those things. Well, you need to do this and you need to do this and you need to do this. I don't get it. I don't understand it. You know? Uh, uh, very controversial, probably about to say here, but you know, we look at the black community a lot of times we'll say ourselves, you know, white people think sometime Nate own the world in every instance, right? Speaker 1 00:42:13 It's like, I'm entitled to this. You're not, why are you here? You know, or what are you doing in this area? And to your point, if you are there, you better be grateful. You're here because you're not even supposed to be here. You know what I mean, simple stuff. I'm going to be real with you. Simple stuff. Like, you know, uh, maybe walking down the street and acting like you own the entire sidewalk, like, oh, okay. We can mutually slot over for each other. You know what I mean? Or, you know, the, whether you decide to hold a door and not hold the door for me, or if I hold the door for you say, thank you. We was raised to do that. So I hold the door. I'm saying, thank you. You know what I mean? It's just so many things. And I don't know if all of this is lumped into microaggressions. Speaker 1 00:43:02 I think it is. But all of these little things that happen on such a, such a daily basis, that it's just, it, it, it drives us to do so many things. You know, I know for me, you know, when I was younger and not that much younger than I am now, I'm that young as a kid, but, you know, suffered from depression. You know, smoking weed was my getaway five. O'clock me and my boy, Corey, we had to meet up. We had to, we were two black men in tech, two black men and take a different job. And it was like, man, you dealt with your hand, man. It's fucked up. Yeah, man. You know what I mean? Yeah. You know what I mean? That that's what you had to do, you know, and you know, fighting what is the alternative to be like, okay, now I know I can go another route. You know, it's like, no, don't, don't get into crime. Don't sell drugs, don't do this. Don't do all of these things, come onto this side of the world and be a good person, which is only going to be a good person up to here. You know what I mean? That's about it. You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an unbelievably weird spot to be in. Speaker 0 00:44:23 That really resonates with how I came up in this world. And this is a conversation by the way about black and tech. But I only will add that, like from my own experience in this world, I never, in a million years anticipated living beyond 25. And when I turned 26, I was like, I don't know what to do. I literally had no idea. Cause I was like, live hard, live, live, like do all the drugs, do all the things, make all the sort of like, you know, not so legal choices and flame out and die. And that was the conception I had of what my own future is and why I'm saying it that way is because it was a crisis for me when I turned 26. But we have this crisis right now for black in America. And that is what is your future? And what I'm hearing you very strongly say is that that future is still not certain. And that future needs to get written in a way that accounts for the past not ignoring it. Speaker 1 00:45:41 Right. Exactly. No exactly right. Is, is, is not certain, uh, you know, I think, you know, one of the things that I've been having, some conversations with people is, is so many people that are wanting to do things and, and, and have, you know, a better life. And uh, you know, maybe I attribute a lot of things to the social media, but if I'm on attribute to this is, you know, it really opens people, eyes up of the possibilities. You know, really prior to that, before you really didn't have insight of everybody's life and all the cool things out of it, you knew your little neighborhood or what you knew, that's what you knew, you know what I mean? So it was very much like, you know, that there wasn't so much to look up to, you know, and if you wasn't the one that from day one was drilled, go to school, try to get to college and move the fuck away. Speaker 1 00:46:39 You know what I mean? All you know is your little four block rates. Well, now that people can see so many things and what's out there contrary to beliefs, the majority of black America are not just fucking lazy and just want to, you know, collect government shit and not doing anything. That is an unbelievable misconception. You know, we want to, and we're seeing the opportunities for programs. You know, whether they're teaching you a trade, skilling, digital literacy, people are seeing those and people are starting to navigate a little bit and understanding, okay, what are some things that I can get to? So, so that's improving a little bit, a little bit around awareness. We still need to dive deeper into the hood. But the, the one that has, you know, still going to be that bottleneck of that ceiling is if you do all those things, you started to clean yourself up, whatever that looks like you started to get some transferable skills, whatever, can you get the job? Maybe if you get the job, will it be a decent one? You know, if it's a decent one, will you be able to grow? Like it's still it, you know, it's like a little bit of hope, but it still looks like you're only gonna, ever get. But so far Speaker 0 00:48:03 It's still looks like you got lucky to use Speaker 1 00:48:06 Your own words. You got lucky, you got lucky to be here. Yeah. Where are you? Where are your friends? They're there on the corner, right? Like you should be lucky, you know, or they're here or they're locked up or they're, you know, whatever. Oh, you should be lucky. You good? Speaker 0 00:48:19 Well, the, the part of it that resonates with my own experiences, at some point that gets internalized. And I have said to myself, like, oh shit, I am lucky. And I shouldn't want for more. And what that means to me is, you know, don't have ambition, don't get bigger. Cause you're just damn doing great where you are and that's all you should want for. So, you know, like, that's it, man. Like you got lucky, you'll end it on your feet. Some of your friends died along the way. Some of your friends are still out on the street, turn and tricks for money and you are in a house with a wife don't want for more, do not want for more. And I think what you're calling out here is the fact that it's okay for white folks to want for more. Speaker 1 00:49:16 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:49:20 It's so interesting listening to both of you talk about that because you're like legends in the respective worlds that you work in. Like you've gotten to places that most people can't even imagine in their careers and it's not, absolutely not luck at all. And so I'm listening to this and I completely believe what you're saying, but it is so shocking to me to hear that you, that, that your perspective is that because it, it looks so clearly earned, um, just from the outside looking in. And so I don't, I don't know what to say about that, except that it's, I'm shocked to hear that. Um, and Tracy, we've known each other for years now and you know, like, um, yeah. It's yeah, that's shocking. Speaker 1 00:50:18 Yeah. And I hear what you're saying and I'm trying to figure out, is there some combination in terms of it's earned because we had to fight so hard to get there, to get to somewhere where sometimes it feels like you're not wanted and then it's the, you're lucky you're still here, you know? Speaker 2 00:50:43 Yeah. I mean, I think I, I actually like it doesn't, it makes sense when you're saying it, it makes sense that it feels like you're lucky. So I'm not saying like, I understand it doesn't make sense. What I, what I'm saying is that it would never occur to me that way because I, and, you know, um, drill from our very first conversation. Like I know you've, you have fought to be authentic, which is why you're where you're at. And Tracy I'm like you and I have had conversations. So I know how true that is for you as well. And so I think part of what I'm saying is that it's not luck. It's authenticity. That's puts you where you are and it's still you're like, what I'm hearing you say is that your internal voices still tell you sometimes, Hey, it's it's luck or it's somebody else's decision. Speaker 2 00:51:33 And, and actually what it is to the outsider looking in is a force of personality for both of you being authentic and not being somebody else, not letting yourself be tokenized like Tracy. I remember the conversations with you years ago about how you're going to show up and how you're going to dress and what that meant when you were launching your own business and, you know, that had to be considered. And so, um, you know, it's just, um, yeah, I, I'm glad to be alongside her in this conversation, which I have almost no relation to, by the way, all of the like complete white culture, like be yourself has completely worked for me. Speaker 2 00:52:20 It goes like, it's just so unfair. And I just look at that and I'm like, she's like, it just is just so unfair. Um, and so, yeah, I don't, I, I have almost nothing to contribute to the conversation except to say, um, thank you for being authentic. And to at least if I can be one voice saying your authenticity is why you're where you're at and who knows where it's going to take you because being authentic, doesn't always end well. Um, and I think that that's, that's gotta be scary too. Right. Um, it's interesting guaranteed on that. Speaker 1 00:52:55 Yeah. It's not guaranteed. It's very scary. And it, you, you wonder when is that fine line of, okay, uh, you're too authentic or you're not, or you're exposing too much or whoa, you're making people uncomfortable. It making people want a lot because I'm telling you of how I've been oppressed and what I got to go through and I'm making you uncomfortable, Speaker 2 00:53:23 You know? Speaker 0 00:53:25 Exactly. That's actually just hit the freaking nail on the head. Darale right there. It's like, you're always wondering where have I crossed the line? And occasionally when you have experiences, you know, like I had with a former employer that was like, this was clearly about us being profoundly disquieted with Tracy, not Tracy's work, you know, you're like, great. I crossed the line and you're like, well, what does that mean for everybody that looks like me after me? What does that mean for me? And you know, what does that mean for like that little box of like rage that I carry all the time. And I think Tim, what I would say is what you're not seeing is the list of things that you set aside to get where you are. Right. I have a list of shit that it's like, if I had the space for it, I'd be doing by the effort that it takes to get there takes up the space that you get for that set aside list of stuff. Speaker 0 00:54:38 You know, however, that looks to a person that, that can look like a list of unperceived hobbies that can look like family that can look like a lot of things. Um, you know, in my world it looked like leaving the LGBT movement behind because I was like, the two things that I faced was I had people that I had known for years calling me like a sellout, because I wanted to go corporate. And at the same time I knew what their corporate journey looked like and what I had to set aside to get where I want it to be. So like, for me, one of the set asides is, is I have no real personal understanding of what even the hell then contemporary LGBT movement wants of itself because it looks like a lot of people to me just clamoring for attention. But I know there's something there, right. And I know how to interface with it because I grew up organizing in it. But what I don't know or why the priorities are being expressed the way they are nowadays. So that's one of my sets sides. Speaker 1 00:55:54 Yeah. I want to go back to site. He said about crossing the line and you know, what is that line? Why is Tracey and I's line differently? Eye-line is hearing somebody else's line further away. So you mean advocating for myself as crossing the line. You mean telling you how I'm uncomfortable is crossing the line, telling you how I need help is crossing the line, telling you how this is a safe place for me is crossing the line. Like how was even all of that crossing the line. But it's, it's, it's, that is the mental gymnastics that we play with. And I had to say, am I about to cross this line? That I'm going to say something just to speak up for myself or to bring awareness that's ultimately going to cause some issues and you know, and it's incredibly hard. And you know, I admire so many times when I meet, you know, a black female that is doing great things in tech or in other places as the attack, because they struggle with the angry black woman stereotype. So anytime they say something or possibly say it in a tone or be passionate, I think it'll say elevate, the voice, just be passionate. Well, she is, she's angry and she's making us uncomfortable and she's this, this, this, this, and this, but someone else line is way further. They can go on a fucking tantrum at work. And it's like, all right, calm down. It's okay. We'll take the rest of the day off and come back tomorrow. It'll be okay. You're not, Speaker 0 00:57:48 I I'm only nodding. Cause I have literally seen that. I have literally seen that. Uh, and that kills me because it's like, God forbid I be angry and just say, I'm angry. But like I'm watching someone having a full-scale like, what are we in high school tantrum? And being told it's okay, that's the price, your innovation coming tomorrow. We'll handle it. Right? Like there are different starting lines and different expectations to REL. I want to dig into something you just brought up and I'm a little ashamed. I didn't actually think of it earlier. Okay. Talk about safety. Um, I think that what you just hit upon is a really important concept for folks to understand. And that is what is the safety parameters of the experience of being black in tech and how that safety should get created. But also like there was a few more thoughts you were saying around that. Speaker 1 00:58:56 Oh man. Uh, no, let me forget to talk about how things would be created. I don't know, but I'll come up with it on the fly. But what I think of when I think of the, the lack of safety and always going back to that lack of representation and things of that sort, uh, you know, not feeling that as you should be able to, you know, express, like I said, you know, I have concerns, I have questions I have do you don't have that person that you can say it to because either you can say, I'm just thinking, or I'm assuming, but off of things that you've already witnessed, you know, that they're going to have a blocker to what you say, you know what I mean? That, uh, you know, uh, they're going to find ways to point it back at you. And God forbid, you're saying something about one of their peers. Speaker 1 01:00:01 You might as well not even start the conversation cause it's going nowhere. And that's what I mean about not feeling like you can have that safe place for that person. Who's really supposed to be there for you and making sure you, you gotta have that one advocate. And in most situations it should be that, you know, direct line manager. But as oftentimes, they're the one who, who had, who's created that unsafe environment for you. So how do you, how do you fix that? You know, it's not working at one time, you would have thought it was HR. And I went to HR. It wasn't about anything like really, really big or anything. But I went to the HR rep to ask a question, next thing I know I'm here for my manager. Hello. I thought I'll post and could go to HR for HR things. But the HR person went and told the manager and then it comes back to me. Well, damn I can't, I can't trust HR Speaker 0 01:01:03 Like incredibly fucked up because that's the system that's supposed to be. Speaker 1 01:01:08 That's the system that's supposed to work and his life. Huh. So, you know, I mean, how could it be fixed? You know, especially if there's organizations that truly realize that they, you know, are underrepresented in their, in their workforce, you know, there's, you know, lack of, uh, females, lack of black brown, whatever it is, you know, build some sort of, and I won't even call it, you know, maybe a mentorship program, but somehow if, you know, there could be, you know, identified that, that, that safe buddy, you know what I mean? You know, a safe buddy program where, you know, and however y'all matched to be buddies and all, you figured out the logistics of that, but that someone that I can go to have those conversations with, but ultimately to that person and you know, the, the proper channels can then maybe advocate on my behalf if what I'm saying, because maybe that safe buddy person is at a higher level. Speaker 1 01:02:16 I don't know. They're part of DNR. I don't know wherever that having structure is, but maybe at least I can go to somebody who can, you know, uh, be that person that can start to open the conversation is up for me in a way and do things for me. Um, and it, and it's sad that you have to do it, actually tell what you're supposed to go to your manager, but I feel like things can get just hitting at those levels. You find them getting that things get really hidden at that level. And there's no, you know, there's no real accountability towards them. You're following any of that. Um, so Speaker 0 01:02:52 Because your manager is ultimately out for their own survival, and if they're being accused of being a participant in something that you're describing, which is a structural problem, they can't solve that. Right. So they're like now compromised in thinking like, great, I can't solve this. I need to like hide it for my own survival. And that's what I'm going to do Speaker 1 01:03:19 At the sacrifice of you and to employ exactly Speaker 0 01:03:22 That's right. Speaker 1 01:03:23 Nope. So I made all of the, all of what we just described is we're really leading people in these unsafe environments. And it's like, I just, I just gotta, I just gotta hang on here because the end of the day, I still need to feed people. You know what I mean? Back to, I'm lucky to be here too. You know, I, I, I just got, I just got to deal with this and then you go home and your personal life is to shit, because this is on your mind all the time. You're not, you're not having the mental capacity to be with your loved ones. Like you want to, Speaker 0 01:04:01 So you are you're, your capacity is filled with shit that from the outside world looks like, why is Tracy drinking so much? Like whatever that thing is, right? Like I sobered up X years ago, but like, clearly that was a coping mechanism. And, and, and that looks different for all of us. That was mine. Yeah. Speaker 1 01:04:28 Yeah. For me, for me, it was, it was, we'd never forget the day, March 6th, 2011. It was the last day I flushed my last little sack down the toilet. That was the day I quit. But, but it's think about it. It wasn't like my life got better. I had to find a little coping mechanism. And for me, that's when I discovered working out and I indulge myself in fitness because that was, it's still these demons I'm fighting and dealing with. I just had to find a different way, you know, to, to, to do those because the ripple effect, the bullshit that you're experiencing, which leads to the alcohol or the drugs or whatever, that then destroys any, you know, like relationships that you may have, you know, significant others, son, daughter, but it's destroying all of that. You know what I mean? And then you're left in this place. There's a little dark place. You all by yourself in this, like you, you, you started to just be zombie at that point. And it's like, I mean, you get up and go to work and there's, there's you, you lose all motivation ambition to do more. It's it's, it's, it's crippling, man. It is so crippling. And a lot of people do not realize how they're contributing to someone's mental state like that. And so many times it is the work Speaker 0 01:05:58 That's all right. And you know, to my earlier comments him, I will connect this to one thing. And that is you do something like sober up. You have to find another way. Right. But what that means is that usually adds an item to your set aside list. Like if I wasn't busy sobering up that like 60,000 words in a two book set of the scifi novels I wanted to write might be done. Right? So that's the list of set asides. You're like, no, man, I got to set that aside because this is clearly the next right step for me and where I think, and this is just my opinion, that leaves a person is however accomplished. They may look, that's always a set of like, feeling compromised. I'm like, well, what did I compromise to get here? Um, Darrell, I wanted to ask you something that this is a topic for me. That's like, I don't know, this is like a thorn in my side or Cron might be whatever you want to call it, like safety in the workplace and employee resource groups. ERG. I have my own critique at ERG that I'm going to leave on articulated until I hear like ERG good thing, bad thing. Where do they need to change, improve? Or are they serving what they're supposed to be serving in the it industry? Speaker 1 01:07:30 Good, very good thing. And I think there's some room for some improvement and very good in terms of having just that sense of community. Like, you know, uh, if you, you know, if you're one of only, you know, black in an apartment of 40, 50, 60, you, you you're around no one else, you know, and just being able to have that community, even when it's, you know, so much of now virtual it's the same, but you know, virtual happy hours and virtual coffees and all of that, and you get to see other people and then let alone, um, be able to do, you know, those in-person events. Um, absolutely great. They really critical for hope for the saying, oh, I ain't the only one that's gone. Oh, okay. And, you know, hope in terms of you meet someone in that ERG and maybe they're having a better experience and there's hope to say, you know what, maybe I can move to another role or I can do something else because you know, maybe, oh, maybe I'm just in a bad spot, you know, it's, you know, maybe it's not really me, you know, if he might manage Speaker 0 01:08:42 It really is the asshole, I think. Speaker 1 01:08:45 Right, right. Speaker 0 01:08:47 That's not you Tim, by the way. You're Speaker 1 01:08:52 Yes. So, so Uber critical for that love everything about an ERG. I think where, you know, I think there could be some improvements is ensuring that those E R G S truly have the proper seat at the table. Uh, you know, when it comes to employee related decisions at the highest leadership level, and I'm not talking about, we're going to brief the ERG first, Speaker 0 01:09:24 We're going to ask, it's like consulted on the giant RACI diagram. It's like, yeah, we're going to inform you with this first or consult you first. This is like at the table helping shape that policy before the policy is executed. Great. Yup. Speaker 1 01:09:40 Yes. Yes. I mean, ensuring that to the highest degree, like literally yet, you know, whether this has happening, I may not know, but I doubt it happening, but you know, having all those proper ERG, like you said at the table when, when things are shaping, but then I think also too is truly, truly, truly ensuring that you have their ear when they need to now bubble up something back to leadership and say, Hey, this is what the community is saying here. Here's what we need to do. You know, it's not happening. I, um, I'm noticing that happening because if it was happening, then we wouldn't still be talking to them about these pay gaps, you know, and these and this, and, and, and all of these things that have been happening. And, you know, we wouldn't have be, we wouldn't have had to form all these brand new DNI committees and jobs and all these things, you know, so, uh, you know, ERG was really powerful and having, you know, that unified collective voice, but it needs to be more of a, that's just an employee network. They got together. We recognize you all over there and actually have them, you know, uh, really at that right seat at the table. If you, if you back to what I said, if companies lead with value in their employees, more than anything else. Speaker 0 01:11:07 Great, thank you. You didn't set out on my critique at Yerkes and I'm like, ERG is more than a contingent in the pride parade, you know, this, right. Like, and I, you know, I said this to somebody highly placed at my old job, my old corporate job. And I was like, all you're telling me is the role that you're taking on is you're going to focus on dumping people as fast as you can into this context with no consideration for how they're landing. And that ERG is going to be the vehicle by which you're going to like help support them. And what I'm telling you is like, that's a lovely and pleasant distraction, but all of those people are going to quit within one year and they're going to quit angry, you know? Oh, I knew you were going to bring that in somehow fitting right there. I did not work for base camp, but you could also say also is that Uber, is that any one of these things? Cause I knew the gal who was charged with changing Uber when she quit hangry in a year, because there's, there's the notion that this ERG where you can get together with your own people is good enough. And those other two things that you articulated DRL remain unaddressed. And that should be the role of an ERG. Speaker 1 01:12:31 That shit, that should be the role that has to be the role. Like I said, you know, I said just as getting together kumbaya, that is great. But that, that should be just more of a, a plus to the ERG. You know, the main thing should be those other two things that we talked about, fear at the table at the beginning, and actually being that, that, that vehicle that can bubble up concerns. So yeah, I it's. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, it, Sam, you brought up the one that I want to talk about it is, I don't know, this is sad or funny and I forgot the guy's role or whatever, who was the one that they didn't even want to get on the call. It was <inaudible> and he was I'm in bed, sick, like, come on now, like you have world war three happening with, at your company. Speaker 1 01:13:24 You know what I mean? And what you're showing is that I really don't give two shits about you all and what you, what your concern is, uh, you know, around this racism or whatever it happened that I didn't even have that common decency decency to show up, you know, on this call. You know what I mean? Like I w what, I didn't even hear about that. Oh, David, like one of the top two, there was one in the top two. So I think it's which one, which one is the one that's been, Jason is the one who's been saying everything just right. Jason Speaker 0 01:14:00 Wrote it all. And David's Speaker 1 01:14:01 Like, you know, David David, when I read that, because, you know, I don't know if you're saying on, they was breaking down the different team meetings and it'd be like transcripts of, of their all hands calls and the fact that it was like a David, you know, didn't even come on camera or you might've came for a second and said, oh yeah. And they said, he came on camera for a second in bed. You could see he was in bed and was like, uh, you know, I'm sick. So I'm going to go out camp and was dead quiet, the entire, all hands meeting while all the fuckery was happening. Speaker 2 01:14:37 That's one way of dodging a Speaker 1 01:14:38 Bullet. You might as well. I mean, I mean, to me, that was more of a slap in the face as to how you thought about your employees and how you valued them to do that. You bet you would've been better off just not even showing up then. And then it'd be like, I could really care less about you all what's happening right now. Speaker 2 01:15:06 Yeah. I think that, like you, like, at least, Speaker 1 01:15:11 At least, at least pretend to at least pretend. And then, you know, people bring it up on the call and, you know, you know, begging them to, uh, at least, you know, denounce racism and them not doing it. And I, you know, I baffling to me sometimes, you know how people, and maybe it's not baffling. I think a lot of times power starts to get cloud people's judgment in terms of those that put you in power are making sure you remain in power are humans. And, you know, they're all types of humans. And back to bother your employees, you need to cater them if you want to remain in this power situation and that you want to be in. And that is, that is just lost so many. Oh, the other thing with that, yes. Hold up, hold up, hold up, hold up. So the whole thing around, we're going to back away from, and I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm just, synopsing a little bit, we're going to back away from this kind of DNI committee and go back to putting all of that under one person in human resources or something like, where's the logic behind that. Speaker 1 01:16:35 So if that is not the epitome of, you know, there's mindset of, you know, supremacy and, and whatever's like, we don't need, you know, to discuss issues and understand where everybody's coming from. We're going to put the power in one person's hand and that's how we shouldn't be. Speaker 2 01:16:53 And if there's a question, then it comes to us and we decide, we decide, okay, so here here's, what's so sad about that. I, I like this hit my step and you can imagine, cause you've met, my staff can imagine how it landed was not well. So I was like, this must be really inflammatory. So I went and read it. And what scared me a lot is that when I read it, I was like, oh, this totally makes sense. That was my first reaction. I'm just going to be transparent and say, like, I get it. I understand. And if I had not spent the last five years being like wrapping my mind around what, you know, Tracy faces, what Rachel talks about, what Joanie and others on my staff have taught me, it would not have connected. I would, I feel like I looked at that and I was like, they have no idea what's coming. They don't know what they just communicated to everybody that decided to work there because they thought it would be different. And then they just got the rug Speaker 0 01:17:56 And connecting it back to derail. Like they thought it would be safe. Speaker 1 01:18:01 Yup. Yup, exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know. I think, you know, a good laugh at base camp. Might've been a good way to kind of wrap up this chat. That is, I, it was, I stopped following the saga after a while, so I don't even know what's the latest with it, but maybe I need to catch up. It was very much a soap opera, you know, uh, very much so Speaker 0 01:18:27 One of the meta messages I'm taking out of this conversation that I think, I don't know. I guess what I'm saying is I come from a background where I was at times super fucking humbly schooled in, just shut the fuck up. Um, and I think the, one of the meta messages here is that, you know, the inadequacies of the current framework have been very well articulated. And the truth is, is that you can't both have an inadequate framework and go to the very people you're bringing into this inadequate framework and say, by the way, can you also solve for this, right? That is not it like the solution is great. You brought people shut the fuck up and listen in some way, shape or form. And listening is connected to power and privilege and humility that are awful personal and corporate lessons to learn. Speaker 1 01:19:34 Yeah, no, no. Uh, uh, something you said, and I'll say this real quick, you just kinda like, you know, shut up. And then you said inadequate frameworks, which very much put me in the mindset of, uh, and I don't know exactly where he was wrong with this, but you know, for me a little bit of, okay, you know, uh, do I do, do you be quiet edges, trust the system, but you can't, if the framework is inadequate, like you said, so you, you know, it forces you to step out of, because you try, you lie, you know, Hey, you know, I was just going, I'm just gonna wait and things going to get better and trusting, they got my back here and they going to do this. But when that doesn't happen, you know, that's, that's when that's, when people gotta stand up, they gotta, they gotta be vocal. And those that are in power that's when you need to listen, you know, stop defending and listen, Speaker 0 01:20:32 That I think is the perfect brow. I don't know anyone articulated thoughts. Darale Speaker 1 01:20:38 Nah, I think that was it. That was, that was an awesome conversation. I enjoyed every, every second of it. Yeah. Speaker 2 01:20:45 Thank you, Joel. And Tracy, can I just thank you again for being authentic? Um, it is, it's so important. Um, it's so important for, uh, those of us that are watching and paying attention and, uh, and we learned so much, um, and it comes at such a high cost. Speaker 1 01:21:06 Yeah, I know. You're quite well-grounded I guess I'll leave with this is, you know, I probably could speak with Tracy is, you know, we're being authentic and hope that, you know, some things could change, you know, and hopefully benefit us. But you know, maybe being these vessels and change agent, I think what would bring as much joy as is at least we're being authentic enough that, that next person coming up and listening, you know what I mean? Can, can start, can start to say, you know what, I can be authentic too. You know what I mean? And maybe it's their authenticity and their little crew of authentic people that, you know, gets us all over the hop. We don't know, but we all got to keep showing up in that manner. Amen. And Speaker 0 01:21:50 Hotel that's exactly. Speaker 1 01:21:53 No, this is great. I thank you all so much. Such a pleasure talking to you, both Tracy and Tim. Uh, I really appreciate it. Uh, I love how you just be really open curse. You can say all types of things, cause these are the honest conversations, uh, that need to continue to happen and continue to happen. So thank you. Thank you. Speaker 2 01:22:14 I'm Tim lucky. Speaker 0 01:22:15 I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack and you've been listening to why it matters. Speaker 2 01:22:20 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations. Speaker 0 01:22:29 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.