Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 This episode is when we don't know what we don't know a diagnostic discussion. Thank you for joining us. We are so excited to have you, uh, join us for this episode. Tracy, tell our fine audience why they need to listen to this conversation. Hey
Speaker 2 00:00:22 Everybody, you may remember a few episodes back. We recorded a segment called the tech includes the humans, and this is part two of our discussion, which we promised at the time and it gets into exactly why digital transformation gets and what we're doing about it. And our framework for understanding how to get it. Unstuck. This is also an episode where we dig into our own philosophies around change, and we do respond to some of the discussions we've been having and unpick some of the difference between the small and large contexts in which digital transformation happens. Also for our friends. I think we've shouted out to no less than 10 of our friends. So if you hear your name here, please, don't be surprised.
Speaker 1 00:01:12 Hey Tracy,
Speaker 2 00:01:13 Hey Tim, how are you doing?
Speaker 1 00:01:15 Good. Um, yeah. How are you?
Speaker 2 00:01:19 I'm fine. I've I've this week has been kind of, but I'm fine. I'm absolutely fine.
Speaker 1 00:01:25 Tell us about the week what's bonkers.
Speaker 2 00:01:27 Um, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:01:29 Does anybody else say bonkers? I feel like we wanna hear from any listeners who have said bonkers in 2022, actually. Sorry. In this decade time in 2020, I,
Speaker 2 00:01:41 You know, first of all, I, who own that, I feel like the best period of my life was circa 1975 through 1980 ish. You know, so all my references come from that era. So like bonkers and far out, man, you know, like you might as well just put a Chi and ch record on constant replay in my life,
Speaker 1 00:02:08 You know, was okay. So did people say that makes a bundle of sense back then? No,
Speaker 2 00:02:12 That's totally.
Speaker 1 00:02:13 I made that that's like 1917. No. Okay. No, that's like that's agricultural, like, you know, no,
Speaker 2 00:02:20 That's a Tracy. That is a, a trademark Tracy. It is, yeah. Bundle of sense. Uh, I've also started using different words for real things. So our family doesn't actually use the word windmill anymore, even though we have many of them on the Hills outside of Livermore, they now use the appropriate word that Tracy invented and that Hoy booby, which better conveys the motion of the device than just using windmill. So stuff like that.
Speaker 1 00:02:52 I would not buy in on that one at all
Speaker 2 00:02:55 Goes the can of worms. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:02:58 All right. Cool. Uh, this week, this week was interesting. Yeah, you so well, uh, okay. On the personal front, our dog got surgery. I know. And, um, for like, okay, I'm on Montana. Yep. I come from ranch roots. You don't do surgeries on dogs. Like that's, this
Speaker 2 00:03:17 Is 2020 too. You actually do.
Speaker 1 00:03:20 Uh, well, yeah, exactly. It is just like, you know, um, anyway for like, this was, this is a clear act of love, um, for my wife, uh, and dog, uh, but more for my wife. Um, but also like, uh, a clear, uh, act of survival because I don't wanna have to find a new place to live if I had said no to that. So like, let's be clear. It was like also motivated by self-interest, but, uh, he's doing great. Uh, he is hobbling around. He's like an, like the equivalent of like an ACL, you know? Um, and, um, you know, they shaved half his leg and he's, he is not socially savvy enough to be humiliated by that fact. Our other dog was, but little D's just like too Doy and happy about life. Yeah. So
Speaker 2 00:04:12 He's such a, in the moment animal,
Speaker 1 00:04:15 He is such a, in the moment animal. I
Speaker 2 00:04:17 Love him so much.
Speaker 1 00:04:18 That, that is the perfect way to say it. Every moment is the moment. Yeah. So
Speaker 2 00:04:23 He's just like, I'm here now. I don't know what happened before this, but I'm here now
Speaker 1 00:04:28 And, and no thought to what's next. Yeah, absolutely. I'll
Speaker 2 00:04:31 Tell, I'll tell everybody I'm gonna be probably a little looser today than I usually am. Cuz the other thing that happened for me this week is I got COVID shot number four. Um, and Amy and I were talking about this last night because we both have immunological reasons for this, uh, that are real, but I was like, I, I had to like black out yesterday after like half a day, I was just like, I have to go to bed. And I've, I've determined that science hates me is what, what, what is true? You know? Cause I mean I will gladly go get COVID shot number five in the fall, but these things wipe me out for like a full day. So, and then they kind of make me all fuzzy and then I'm like, you know, prone to saying things I, you know, have learned to try and filter or make the attempt at filtering through the years. Oh dear.
Speaker 1 00:05:21 I don't heard that terrifying as your pod, as your podcast, peer on, you know, in post <laugh> you being looser than usual. Yeah. Woo gonna be, yeah, here we go. Here we go. So, um, okay, so this was a good, this was a fun week for you and I, we gotta do quite a few interesting things together. So one was, we did a diagnos review, which we're gonna be talking about what the diagnostic is, but we gotta do that with a client together this week. And that was, that was great. Um, and then the first advisory meeting for pond, um, yes, which was so interesting to meet the other advisors who are just like amazing individuals and so, so incredibly fun to have to be on that board. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:06:12 I like, first of all, we love pond. Uh, so for folks who are listening, join pond.com, Tim and I are both on the advisory. And I have to tell you from where I sit in this world, I am very used to walking into a room and within minutes being like, okay, this is my room. I will act at a accordingly or I will just sort of sit back in my like little sort of black trench coat in the back corner and quietly sip a soda while everybody else does things and observe, right. Those are my two modalities. That advisory board meeting was one of the times where I was just personally like all are scary, smart. Y'all are terrifyingly experienced. Like, I don't know why I'm here. Like what, what, what value am I bringing you? People are, are like, I, those folks are so cool and I am so excited for, for working with them. It, I, I can't stop gushing. So there you go. Yeah. And we just so up the advisory board slack today. So that was fun too.
Speaker 1 00:07:21 Yeah, exactly. You know? Um, yeah, I, I was so impressed by how personal yeah. Um, and, and real people on that board are so, yeah. Um, so yeah, we are both really excited about pond. Uh, expect us to continue to talk about that. Um, if we, you know, I mean, obviously we're so because we are on, on the board and choosing to be around for that. So, um, and then recording, um, recording. We are for good. Yep. Um, we were on that podcast together yesterday too. Really, really fun. Um, I feel like we did, oh, just client meetings this week were really fun. And so, um, client work, I gotta say it
Speaker 2 00:08:05 Is, you know, it is
Speaker 1 00:08:07 What we do, man. What we do, what we get to do is just really, really amazing and really fun, including, uh, being friends, working together, podcasting together, all of that. So anyways, good week. Um, I also, this was not with you, but I also gotta speak to a group of, um, executive directors from Montana, nonprofit association about crypto and why to receive crypto donations. And, uh, that was, that was one of the more fun talks I've given in a really long time. Partly cuz I, I was so open about what I don't know about it. And um, and so it made it, it made it really fun. Um, and uh, in a good conversation. So
Speaker 2 00:08:50 In some ways the what's going on with crypto and web 3.0, reminds me so much of what was going on when HTML hit, like the 1.1 or the 1.3 release in the late nineties. And everybody was like, you need a webpage and people are like why? And it was like, because you needed, you know, and, and, and the use case will evolve. You just need to get thing first. Right? Yep. And that's kind of where we are in the industry. Yeah. As crypto. And I think honestly, what I would say to the folks who, who run apps, who listen to this particular recording is look, there are becoming more and more legitimate means by which your online donation platforms can accept cryptocurrency. Please go investigate them. This is going to be incredibly important from the nonprofit ecosystem. And by virtue of your investigations, you will help move that needle forward and legitimize this as a tool and not a fascination, which I think is an important distinction.
Speaker 1 00:09:57 Well, and also you don't even need to know anything about it to just go to every, every.org. And this is the first thing I said, like, I'm gonna skip to the end and save you a bunch of confusion if you don't want to listen in, if you aren't, if you don't like, if this is not a core part of your strategy, then just go to every.org, sign up for their widget. And like, then you can at least be like, yep, we accept crypto onto the next thing. Your board is happy. Your, you know, donors are happy and that's fine. And even if you want to learn more in the future, start there yep. Do that, you know, do that process, um, start accepting. And then, you know, six months a year for now, you know, uh, if it gets more advanced, it gets more advanced. And so, yeah, it was fun. In fact, I'll put, um, I put a ProCon list together for it. Um, and I think it's very pro, but there are some things to be aware on it. And so, uh, we can make that part of the show notes. Um,
Speaker 2 00:10:52 I think so can download that. So folks know PDF, I've mentioned this before on recordings, but I'm midway through my project of can Tracy mint and NFT. Uh, <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:11:04 Interesting.
Speaker 2 00:11:04 And it's, it's about that. Yeah. Yeah. It's a multistep process, uh, and it, and it requires connecting things kind of manually that you would expect to be connected based on behavior of other tools on the internet, but that's just not where things are at yet. So maybe in the future, once I actually min my first NFT, which I'm getting very close to, uh, I just need to read because the implications of what you're signing up for are kind of interesting. And I'm like, okay, like before I put money on how, what is the implication of what I'm doing? But I, I wanna report back on that because you know, this is a way that we take ownership of things in a new framework. And I think that's the, that's the nature of the experiment.
Speaker 1 00:11:54 Um, yeah, I, I think that's, that's right. And that gets into blockchain versus cryptocurrency, which is, you know, it's not just FinTech, so it was great. And it was really fun to put out the episode with Justin Steiner around unblocking blockchain. I
Speaker 2 00:12:10 Love Justin. I miss I cloud focus weekly. That was
Speaker 1 00:12:14 I do too. That was an
Speaker 2 00:12:15 Amazing for a long time. That podcast was so fun. Um, so Justin and, and Jason and, and Larry, cuz I know Larry, you were sort of the silent partner on that, but uh, you know, Justin and Jason, man, anytime you wanna resurrect cloud focus weekly, even just for one episode, it could be like cloud focus. Hey we're back. Like yeah, that was so much fun. Yeah. So
Speaker 1 00:12:41 Cool. Okay. Um, so onto what we are talking about this week, which has been a great week, um, we're talking, I think I wanna, I, I think this episode might be called when we don't know what we don't know and I wanna start,
Speaker 2 00:12:58 I'm gonna shorten that to unknown unknowns, but don't
Speaker 1 00:13:00 You even start with me unknown unknowns, unknown unknowns, quadrant craziness, like whatever
Speaker 2 00:13:05 No's. I mean the poly scientist in me is like, why can't we just call it unknown unknowns?
Speaker 1 00:13:11 Cause I already named it for one thing. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:13:14 This is, is how, why
Speaker 1 00:13:15 It matters. Dunno what we dunno. <laugh> okay. So, uh, you can call it what you want. But uh, John Carlos, when we don't know what we don't know and I'm talking about everybody and what came into sharp focus this week was I got fed up with something and I'm so to tempted to spin this as I was brilliant, but I wasn't and Sue Susan Tobes called me out, like right away on it was like, you know, with a, Hey, Hey,
Speaker 2 00:13:44 Are you, oh, this is your LinkedIn post.
Speaker 1 00:13:45 Why is this? So yeah, exactly. Why are you, so why are you so down on this? And I, and, and Susan, if you're listening, totally appreciate that post. And I went back and read. I was like, yeah, I do kind of sound like a teenager here, pet or whatever, but what, uh, I, I put a post up that just said, um, that it's a poll, which I don't, I haven't done a lot of polls because I've the few I've done have gotten like four results and it's sort of humiliating. So <laugh>, I put this one up, I up there and I was like, maybe I'll get 10 or something. Didn't know what to expect. But I just said, who's responsible for the general lack of digital transformation in the nonprofit sector. And then, uh, and then I just made four options, uh, which is all you can do because I would've made more. But, uh, so I put nonprofit leaders slash boards, fundraisers slash philanthropy, tech platforms slash consultants. And then the last question is what's digital transformation.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:14:43 So, uh, we have it, it now has 66 votes. There are four days left. It will be closed by the time anybody hears this. But, um, uh, but we would still love to know where, what you would've voted for on it. Um, and so here's the breakdown, nonprofit leaderships and boards ha currently have 62% of votes, fundraisers and philanthropy have 30. Uh, somebody finally put down tech platform and consultants. There are two of those. And then the last one, there are three votes for what's digital transformation. And, um, and then the comments are just really intriguing, super
Speaker 2 00:15:26 Golden comments
Speaker 1 00:15:27 And in, you know, and, and when people started taking it serious and I think Tim San Antonio like was like, Hey, there's no nuance in this. And I think, so lesson number one, blame doesn't like blame is a, an act of removing nuance. Like what you're trying to do is just blame somebody. And so nuance actually gets in the way of blaming nuance
Speaker 2 00:15:49 Gets in
Speaker 1 00:15:50 The way of
Speaker 2 00:15:50 Blame. This is
Speaker 1 00:15:50 Absolutely AB absolutely a blaming and, and very much an unfair poll. Like I'll just own that right away. Like, um, you know, so first off, you know, like in 10 San Antonio then said he, he wasn't voting for a particular reason and cited, uh, Amy sample ward who came in and, and I think like very good reason brought
Speaker 2 00:16:13 The hammer down
Speaker 1 00:16:15 <laugh> they? They did. And, and, and they did it by pointing out that, you know, um, that this, the digital transformation, uh, part of this is societal investment, which is government yeah. Spending basically. And, and I was like, oh, well, there's funders and philanthropy. And he was like, Nope, top 15 foundations, you know, could not cover this gap. And here's the, you know, council of nonprofit data to support that. And I was like, okay, you win fine. So thanks, Tim San Antonio was great. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:16:45 Well, I mean, thanks to Tim San Antonio and thanks to Amy sample ward, because like, here's the thing that gap is billions of dollars.
Speaker 1 00:16:55 I know you say this all the time and it's, it's, I, I gotta say, like, I think I, I think in different ways, I think larger, or I think large, like I can scale out and in, but it's in a different range than you and Tim and Amy. I wanna be really clear about that because it's not my instincts, but it is yours. And you've said that multiple times, this is a 5 billion problem.
Speaker 2 00:17:20 Yeah. At minimum at minimum. And what kills me, what really kills me. Like, I'll be honest and say, I responded with like, oh, philanthropy's totally the problem here, but not, I don't think, well, there are two things. One is I, I responded from that way because of Amy's answer, which is philanthropy perpetuates system of powers and injustice, even if it does so accidentally by playing into the framework that charity in the first place should be under resourced. Based on, you know, we were talking about on the, we are for good thing, you know, the Protestant work ethic, right. Which is just systems of power and privilege that have matriculated through our society, you know, for 400 years. And the fallacy of that thinking is thinking that, you know, we shouldn't have a society that actually looks at a safety net through an equity lens. And that, that is the job of, you know, not the government and not rich people, you know, to jump in on and I'm very well to do off. And I think anything that pays fair share is important because there was times in my life when I wasn't and I needed that. And you don't know when that circle will close itself on you. You really don't.
Speaker 1 00:18:49 Yeah. It, I, I do that is a thing that is not like, I, I don't disagree with all of that. And I'm still also like, okay, but we are where we're at. What's next without, without at the same point being like, those are also important issues. And I'm not trying to say that they aren't, but I am saying like, okay, yes, but digital transformation for nonprofits does exist right now. You know, no matter how we got here and you know, what's next, that's doable right now in that. And, and I, and I know I'm opening myself up to saying like, I'm not paying attention to the wider conversation. I am, I have been for a long time, but it isn't the point of my work on this. My point on the work is like, there are actual things that we need to start doing for nonprofits in the moment that they're in, which is digitally confused right now.
Speaker 1 00:19:44 And needing more digital lit, literacy, more funding around this and better software for it. And so my answer on that we're was actually, it ended up being what's digital transformation. And the reason I put it there is that the, I think the only way forward is to get at that question with services that aren't just building the tech, but are building the human stack, right. That are around digital literacy. And right now those, those services where they exist are not precise. They are like, there's a lot of war around it. Um, the way that I think there was an early software development that became aligned around methodologies. And that's why I just say until we had have a digital transformation methodology, we, you know, the industry is not prepared to know what digital transformation is in a way that it can deliver. So I think all the rest of it is it does look like nonprofits are responsible.
Speaker 1 00:20:48 It does look like philanthropy is like not doing stuff. And it does also look like to me, like consultants are ignoring the real issues, uh, around, you know, usage and utilization of the technology that they're providing or that they're implementing, but all of it boils back to okay. But no, nobody asked tech platforms to do more than build a tool. And, and, and, you know, there isn't enough, there isn't enough tangible here is what it looks like to really hang your hat on for funders. And then of course, like, you know, take out all professional development and you've got nonprofits that, you know, so all of that to say, like, it's there isn't one answer to this, but I do think there is, there's no one party to blame. Like, yeah, I'll be clear about that. Like, that's an unfair assessment, all of you that answered, like that's an unfair question. Absolutely. It is. And that, but I also wanna point out that blame is currently happening. And so I, I actually like that this just exposed. It was like, then if, if that's the way it is, then let's, let's not blame. And let's start saying like, what is the core issue? And I would say, um, until we identify services around digital transformation, like that's where we're gonna be stuck. Um, well, I mean,
Speaker 2 00:22:05 I, I would actually say three things, maybe thing, number one is what I thought was funny about that poll was tonally. Like, yeah, you're usually the more like softer one on LinkedIn. Like I'm usually the one on LinkedIn. It's like here, read this morons, read it. <laugh>, you know, like that's kind of how
Speaker 1 00:22:26 Is understated.
Speaker 2 00:22:27 Yeah. It's just like, you don't read, you know, you don't need to say it because I'm just like read this or like, you know, live in 1922, you know, you know, so, you know, it's, it's people expect that from me. So tonally, like people are like, okay, whatever, this is like, obviously something Tracy wants me to look at, I'll look at it and just ignore, you know, their own sort of like dismay and disappointment with like society at large. Um, so I think that was funny. I think if I had put that poll out, people wouldn't have, even, it wouldn't have even registered because it would've just been like, oh, it's this Traci being Traci. They're just trying to be provocative. But you know, that was a good utilization of Provo provocation. I thought, secondly, you know, what I would say is to your point, this is a both, and right.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 We have to focus on the things that we know we can change, but we can't lose sight of they're rested in systems of social power and social privilege, and frankly, public policy that shape outcomes in ways that even the best intentions can't always overcome. Right. And you know, that's been the history of movement organizing in some ways is how to overcome those systems and make real change. So I would say it's a both end. I would say this kind of work that you're talking about, which I know we're gonna pivot to in a moment, um, needs to be rested in a better con of those systems of power and privilege. And that gets right to the heart of what Amy was saying on that. And, you know, so, you know, you're right. Like, this is not a, like, everybody's wrong. It's like, we're all looking for answers. Right. And we're all looking for answers with the skills and the capabilities and the insights that we've had because we all know know change is needed. And I think lastly, what I would say is, um, it was just really funny, like watching Tim be the center of controversy, <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:24:36 On LinkedIn. I was like, Ooh, I'm getting my popcorn. And I'm just sitting back and I'm watching this because, you know, it's, it's just a fun, little way to point out that we all want to do better, you know? Well,
Speaker 1 00:24:50 And it didn't go like there was no trolling in this.
Speaker 2 00:24:55 Oh no,
Speaker 1 00:24:55 No appreciated. Yeah. Like people, people showed up to say what they thought. And I, I couldn't have asked for anything more and I didn't mean to be throwing out a job ever or anything with a question. I actually feel like it is a question that's been bugging me for a long time. And, and like I said, I just wanna know what people thought and like, I, and I got it. It was great. And yeah. Um, that was I, the convers keeps going and I also don't like, I was not a ring leader on that one. I think that there, I think a lot of stuff emerged and I wanna like, let's thank Kevin Bromer for coming out. Cause we haven't heard from him in a minute. And, uh, and I, I, I think what I loved about his response, which was like, it took so much area, it was like three comments, but it boiled down to at the end of it, like the power of roadmaps.
Speaker 2 00:25:47 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:25:48 And I, and the power of vision
Speaker 2 00:25:50 And strategy. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 1 00:25:52 Double underline that. And, well, I, I think he wasn't saying, I mean, yes, it does require strategy, but what he kept saying is a simple, one's all you need. He doesn't need to be big. You don't need to, like, you don't need a weekend retreat to pull it out. Like just a, you know, um, just, just, you know, that would be enough. Um, and so, okay. So let's get into it. I will say,
Speaker 2 00:26:14 I will say the way that Kevin wrote that though. Like I so appreciate it because I'm usually the one and I've made this reference on other recordings. I'm usually the one who's like, I'm going to open the tone of, for both Sarine knowledge and just keep going until I run out of character spaces and then keep going. And I was like, oh, Kevin, I love you. Like I was like, yes. Yeah, exactly. And, and you're right. Like we don't need to lock ourselves in a room for four days and come up with like the perfect, what we need to do is have a compass and know that we're going in a direction. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:26:47 Totally. You know? Yeah. We, yep. I, I, I think that's great. That makes me, that makes me wonder, and I may actually reach out and ask Leon Wilson, like, Hey, like scan this. And then as kind of the, the historian around this, I would love to know what,
Speaker 2 00:27:07 And Sam Kaplan, by the way, over at Submittable, just did a podcast with Leon as well. And if folks haven't dug in on that, go do it. I, I have such mad respect for, for Leon and Sam, both actually, but Leon's got a per on our industry that is rich informed, accurate, and just spot on. Amazing.
Speaker 1 00:27:31 Yeah. Um, okay. So all of that is to like, that's a long, very long-winded way of saying, um, what, like we are in a moment where I believe the best way to describe it is to say we like, we, we, the collective, we, the industry don't know what we don't know right now about digital transformation for nonprofits and all of the, all the work in the last decade that's been done by like Deloitte and Ken and all McKenzie and like all, all of that work rests on, in a, you know, kind of this bedrock assumption of professional development that doesn't exist here. And so the whatever models have been emerging for the, you know, for-profit business, uh, I are, are not applying for whatever reason I I'm putting on assumption that I think that it's because yeah,
Speaker 2 00:28:27 The hyper nuanced, Tracy just wants to jump in on all over this, but I'm just gonna let, keep going.
Speaker 1 00:28:32 Right. Thank you. Yeah. <laugh> um, and so, you know, I, I will, I I'll also say because I have invested so much thought in thinking into this for the last year. Um, I also wanna be clear, like I do feel like there are answers. I feel like I've got some of them and I don't think I'm the only one. And to, and to Susan Tobes point, if you're listening to this, um, I don't think that we're doing it all wrong and I don't think that, you know, every everybody's wrong, but I, I do think haven't asked those questions, uh, the right way in some ways, um, collectively and, um, you know, and some of that's impressionism and some of that's probably just not being aware of what else is going on in the industry, which I'm, I'm sure is happening is a really vast industry. And Billy BT actually, um, just sent over this week, some really interesting stuff that's happening in the UK around this. So I, yep. Like, I, I, I wanna
Speaker 2 00:29:32 Upcoming for why it matters. Uh,
Speaker 1 00:29:34 Yeah. I can't wait, Billy,
Speaker 2 00:29:36 Billy's an incredibly smart human being. We can't wait to have him here. And yeah, his work is definitely a new angle.
Speaker 1 00:29:46 So all of that said, and yes, I agree cannot wait to have Billy bigot on here. Um, but all that said what, um, what I wanna do is break down what we've learned from the diagnostic as an in introductory tool for us to just learn from our own experience, having done this now, um, for, you know, I think we put the diagnostic out and we've been working towards it for a while, but we put the diagnostic out in December. We've gotten quite a few answers would love more. So if you wanna go to diagnostic.now matters.com and just take a, a quick six question quiz on digital health for your nonprofit, please do. And it doesn't have to be a nonprofit just, you know, for your business, what, you know, like we'd love to see more and more of that come in. But what, um, on the, on the other side of that, there is a paid review and we've done that now for, uh, enough clients where I feel like, okay, patterns are starting to emerge that are, that are quite interesting.
Speaker 1 00:30:50 Um, and, and we're not going to be of course, naming clients or anything like that. But the, the things that are coming up from them are, um, are the point of conversation and, and what not, what we've told them about their, their organizations, which have been helpful, but really more, what are we learning about what this means for digital transformation? So, um, yeah. Okay. So, uh, to dive into that, um, I think that, like the first thing to say is those six questions form six, uh, six vital signs, three of which are human stack, and three of which are tech stack. And the overall point of the diagnostic is to put on one a axis, what, you know, what's going on on the human stack and on the other what's going on in the tech and the, and the idea there being, if you can identify where you're at in these two areas, and then with the six vitals under them, you can essentially almost form, like, I don't know, like a personality profile for an organization's use of technology, um, both on their behavior, on the human stack and their, uh, and, and their solutions on the, on the tech stack.
Speaker 1 00:32:12 Um, I
Speaker 2 00:32:13 Think what I'll add to this is, you know, Tim and I have been working together for two years. And, you know, when I started working with you, Tim, I took a sort of like pickup trucks worth of like notes and drawings and frameworks that I've been noodling on to explain this phenomenon. And I was just like, here, nobody's wanted to do anything with this. Here you go. And, you know, Tim and I each have different forms of magic. And I really wanna call out that this is your magic. Like I have different magic. I can do different things with technology and business owners and
Speaker 1 00:33:04 Partnerships. Yeah. The point about you and San Antonio and Amy sample ward like that. I, I agree with.
Speaker 2 00:33:10 Yeah. You know, so I, I have different magic than Tim, but this really is like, I couldn't get here in a way that this does get here. And this is after, you know, first legal pads and then digital pads of countless frameworks and diagrams and like a, to B lists and relationship lists. And so what I wanna point out is the simplicity of this is the point, and it's taken a long time <affirmative> to get here.
Speaker 1 00:33:42 Yeah. Thank, thanks for that. And, um, the <laugh>, the goal was to create something that my mom could take, um, and, and understand, um, not that she works for an organization that uses this, but, um, if she did, I would, I would want it to be at her level of sophistication. And so the language on is really plain. And I, I always make that point because it feels so intellectually, light <laugh> or something like, so, you know, my background's in econometrics. I, you know, I like, I want to get in here and start thinking about things like hetero risk elasticity, and should this be run on library? You
Speaker 2 00:34:26 Can't say that word on this podcasts, a dirty word
Speaker 1 00:34:29 <laugh> and you know, all of that. And so, um, part of what I had to give up is that you don't need a sample of 30 people. Yeah. You don't, you know, just to even hit like statistical significance. That's not the point of it. In fact, I, I have taken this with, uh, you know, like a, a as we saw on the Weir for good podcast podcast, I just took the answers from Becky, no comments, nothing else about that. And just like, said, Hey, here you go. Does, does this, does this look anything like what you're experiencing? And it did. And I think that that part of what's interesting, and it goes back to part of what we say about the human stack, which is like the human stack is full of incredible processors. And intuition is one of the advantages of the human stack that doesn't exist necessarily in the tech stack.
Speaker 1 00:35:20 Um, and so I feel like you can rely on that human intuition. And just, even if you've got a sample of one, say, Hey, this is kind of what I'm reading from that. But as you and I saw when we had, uh, when, when we were working with, um, you know, with the one that we got this week that had over 30 answers in it, like, it, it also crystallized a lot of other pieces to it. So we've done some with a few, some with a, with, with more, and, um, and the, the answers really do, like, you can out a picture in a different way, but you don't. I think my point on that is I agree with you on the simplicity that you are just trying to get the shape of it.
Speaker 2 00:36:04 Yeah. Um, and what you do next is what you do next, right? Like I've done strategy papers for a myriad of organizations. And when I do something like that, I'm generally like, okay, here you go, take it or leave it. But like, you know, not for nothing, I've been kind of noodling around this world for 20 years. So I know a little bit of something, and here's my perspective. And sometimes those things just get immediately shelved because people don't want actual action. They want information, and they want that information to align with their thinking. And when it doesn't, I've noticed that's when these things get shelved. And the difference here is in all of the instances where we've done these, it didn't get shelved because instead of giving folks sort of an outside in looking strategy piece, what it did is reflect back to these organizations, their own thinking about themselves. And that's really critical for creating a benchmark for how your organization's going to operate. If you, what your next step is, is a tech transformation.
Speaker 1 00:37:28 Yeah. Uh, I think that's well said. Um, yeah, I think that's really well said. And the, the, what I've liked about this process as we've done it. And I remember when we first started, you were, I remember you were like, cause this feels like discovery. And so, and we've done like all of us, you know, have learned to trust our trust, the conversation that we're having with clients to get to like, you know, to, and so you, you train your ears to listen really well and to ask really pesky questions and all of that. So I remember it took multiple conversations for you to see what I'm doing is actually saying, I am trying not to hear from the client. What I'm trying to do is hear from results that they have some comments that they're making no interaction between us. And then we want to show them their results without us in dialogue with them.
Speaker 1 00:38:27 Yeah. And the point of that is to say like, you know, what, what we are trying to get at here is a picture of your answers in an analysis that we're providing, um, that has, it does have a simple framework with some very simple math behind it, but it, it is, it actually does reveal in my, in my opinion, we get just as far when I look at one of the results on this for, for an hour and a half or two hours, I, I feel like I get just as far as when I would go in and do this for 30 to 50 hours of analysis with a, with a client that's been really surprising. Now what we don't get at is the roadmap on solution fit. So I wanna be really clear though. Yeah. What we were doing before was to say, you know, um, on one of the, like, you know, one of the vitals is the fit, the actual solution, your tech stack, like how well does it fit?
Speaker 1 00:39:32 That used to be the entire conversation. And so we would spend all of it on that. And what I'm trying to do is actually in some ways, say the rest of the industry has that and we can get at it. But if you just have a sense of where that's at, and then you move on to the other five vitals, what, you know, what's next. And part of that is an emerging philosophy for me around digital transformation. And I think, you know, for both of us, so I'm saying mine, but I think, you know, this is, this has been through the work at, at now matters together has been that the key here is to stop moving in, just reactively, moving, um, nonprofits out of existing systems. And instead, start in the systems that they're in. So start with existing systems. And that is, that's a real reversal on the work that we did for, you know, a decade.
Speaker 2 00:40:24 Yeah. And got really good at like
Speaker 1 00:40:27 Really
Speaker 2 00:40:27 Good at, and I think
Speaker 1 00:40:29 Absolutely,
Speaker 2 00:40:30 That's not a slight, by the way, what I, what I wanna call out is the power of that perspective. And the at is yes, a change may be warranted, but have you investigated where you are first? And you know, one of the things that I've spent some time explaining to application developers and to some degree platforms is power of that retention that this enforces right. And the, the power of retention is, you know, equally as important as the power of sales and the problems that are engendered in these discussions is that the underlying of assumption is that change is necessary always. And that actually, isn't true. And we've constructed an entire economy of selling to nonprofits in the impact economy around change, being necessary because technology is evolving. But if we take a step back and understand that the power of retention is equally important, that economy will still grow and you will still make money.
Speaker 1 00:41:49 Well, yes. And the, I think the reason that the, the human stack is so important is because without it, you either are changing the tech stack or you aren't. And that is where
Speaker 2 00:42:02 Yes, it takes the binary outta that decision.
Speaker 1 00:42:04 If you, if you say, okay, there's a human stack and you say that is its own thing to change. Then what you introduce is, um, you can still do the change that you, that needs to happen, but you don't have to change the technology. And that does two things. One, it, it aligns, uh, it decreases, um, change saturation. And, and I would just say like, that's a real thing can only handle so much change at a time. And so if you, if you replace a whole system first and you, haven't implemented a way that the tech stack actually works cohesively, you actually stress out the human stack without realizing it because you're introducing a lot of change. So even if, and this is the second thing, even if it's time to change the, the tech stack, that's not necessarily the best starting point. Yes. The best starting point is still, you know, the human stack and that doesn't need to be forever.
Speaker 1 00:43:11 That could just be a couple of months, but if you introduce a framework of change first, and I know that this is called change management, the problem is that change management has been conceptualized as part of this, either out there thing, or it's a disconnected kind of version of the tech stack without, or the human stack without identifying a methodology around that, that is more holistic. And it's off been just associated with change management of the existing system that you're working in. So if you're doing a CRM, you know, cut over change management is change management of the people in that CRM. And we're talking about the human stack. It is, how does your organization collectively use all of its digital systems together? Are those are like, that gets it out of just this one project. So change management is so often tied to this project. We need to do instead of our organization, collectively needs to use all technologies together. And that doesn't mean that they're all interoperable. In fact, they aren't. And that's why, that's the thing that I feel like we've, we've bounced around with, for so long is these are not going to get interoperable like tomorrow. And so we need to figure out how we're going to work together on them. Even
Speaker 2 00:44:27 Folks like myself are like desperately pushing for that in the field and in the ecosystem, you know?
Speaker 1 00:44:33 Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So, um, I realize we're like, um, we're, we're, we're getting high level here just to explain the framework really quickly, then their solution on the tech stack, there are three vitals solution fit and, and solution fit is basically tech stack, uh, the there's data quality and there's utilization. And the idea here is, you know, I, I think I instinctively when we started, this was like, okay, what we need to test for is things like change management, governance adoption, right. Uh, because those are the big ones, but the more we dug into that, the more we realized it's like adoption is a system and an outcome. It's the thing that happens when other things are in place, same thing with governance. And even to this even change management to some degree, um, which, um, I think, you know, you can't get at those as directly as I think we have thought in the past. And instead those are things that happen when you put a other actions in place. So yeah, the, the point of the vitals is what things do, what things are there, uh, which, what are the input things that you can actually do something with? So
Speaker 2 00:45:44 I think also what's important to point out about the utilization metric is that unlike adoption, which I, I think really is centered on a binary kind of input, like, are you using it? Are you not for how long are you using it? My impression of utilization. And I, I would love to hear you unpick this a little bit is not so much, are you using it it as how much value are you getting out of your use of it? Because I log into some tools once a day, once every three days, but, you know, so it won't look like I'm adopting it very well, but for the one thing that I need to get out of them, when I log into it, I'm like, it's here. Cool. I got value out of this. That's exactly what I needed in the moment I needed it. That to me is the difference between adoption and utilization. It's how much value are you getting out of this and why do you perceive yourself as getting value out of it?
Speaker 1 00:46:56 Yeah. And the, so absolutely agree. The other thing I would say on it is, um, I I'm very suspicious of standard operating procedures like SOPs that said the <laugh> and a lot of this is because I'm not like the guy that reads the instructions or I didn't used to be, and I'm a bit embarrassed to tell you that I am now, I'm a, like becoming a dude that I know. I know I, that that's gonna fundamentally change your opinion of me. And I'm sorry
Speaker 2 00:47:22 For that. I'm gonna hold onto that for a future recording. Right.
Speaker 1 00:47:26 I know is gonna come out. I know it's back to me <laugh> but the more I've, the more I've watched, like really, really excellent, like clients that have taken our framework and have done so much with it. What I recognize is that they have put, to use things like standard operating procedures. Sometimes they don't even call them that, but they've actually created such great operating procedures around that. And so some of the utilization is okay, do you, do you, as an organization, even know what you're supposed to be doing the system, and then are users doing that. Um, and when, and the other, the other part of the vitals was looking for some of the key indicators that you can make decisions when compared to other things. So, you know, in the case of, um, in the case of looking at we are for good.
Speaker 1 00:48:21 One of the things that was really interesting was that they had such a strong solution fit, which were often like if we're working with, uh, as clients, a lot of times it's because they have a low solution fit. Like that's one of the reasons that they're coming to us. Um, so strong solution fit with, uh, middle data quality and middle utilization. Uh, you know, that's a very different profile and says something very different than like an organization that would have high solution fit, high data quality, and almost new utilization, which we saw from another client. And it was, we were like, okay, this means that they have somebody in there that is doing it all. And a lot of them are just doing stuff in paper and then like shoving it over to somebody that is doing a lot of data entry or doing maybe better, like some imports and people are doing stuff in Excel, which is what they, which turned out to be the case.
Speaker 1 00:49:17 Um, and so I, I think that the, the point here is that these vitals aren't independently important. They are, but they, they together, they start to form a picture about what's going on. So those are the three tech style, vital solution fit data, quality and utilization. And then on the human stack side, we have system sustainability and system sustainability is, is your system getting a little bit better or worse over time? And I can't remember precisely the way that we ask that question, but this is not around organizational sustainability. This is around, we, you look at your digital systems, like, do you feel like we're trending towards it getting better? Or are you trending towards, is like falling apart. People often have very clear, like if you frame it that way, um, that, you know, people usually have fall on one side or the other, sometimes they're kind of in the middle, but, but that the that's, that one usually helps. Um, and then digital strategy, which really is about like, do you feel like you're, you know, where you're headed as an organization around your technology and about around your, your systems and
Speaker 2 00:50:29 By the way, like that digital strategy thing that gets to the heart of our discussion earlier regarding, you know, Kevin Bremer's comments. Right. Absolutely does.
Speaker 1 00:50:38 Yep.
Speaker 2 00:50:39 I grew up in the era of tech where, where things were slower and more predictable. So my digital strategy was hardware replacement cycles and, and things that we don't really consider anymore to be strategic, but just operational, but back 20, 30 years ago, they were strategic. Right. Like, thinking about that was strategic. So that gets to the heart of some of Kevin's comments. It doesn't need be over, over, uh, gilded. I, I think that that Lilly doesn't need to be Giled very much.
Speaker 1 00:51:18 Yeah. Yeah. I think you're exactly right about that. I want to come back to the, who does, what on these mm-hmm <affirmative> when we're thinking about them. Um, but you are, you are correct. Um, and so is Kevin that like, Hey, a sense of direction is, you know, um, is key a sense of direction that is written down and other people can see and create visual expectations for, um, is like a thousand times, uh, uh, like you get a thousand yard for that one shift in is written down. People can see it. Um, and so, you know, even if someone knows kind of where they think things are going, as soon as you put that in a form that people can look at and start to hang their hat on, uh, you know, that, that becomes exponentially more valuable. Um, the other, the other thing, when, you know, we haven't really talked about, and this is where digital strategy is one of the first ones that creates a big pull on this is what happens on the edges of that.
Speaker 1 00:52:19 So the low side of digital strategy is reactive and, uh, high side of digital strategy is strategic. And so, um, and one of the really interesting things is, you know, almost immediately what I look for is where is their sustainability and where is their digital strategy? And I don't even care somewhat if they're both low or if they're both middle or high, but when I see one that's then one direction and the other that's in the other direction, then you like, that is where we find some of the, um, in some ways the easiest things to fix, because there's some something you can do about it. But like a lot of times what you see is, uh, like high, high digital Strat or yeah, high digital strategy, a almost over strategizing and low system sustainability. And a lot of times what you see in that is a strategic leader, a strategic thinker, like me, who is in tactical meetings and changing my mind every 10 minutes, right?
Speaker 1 00:53:26 Like, you've worked with me and you are you and I have very similar personalities. Like we should not be running tactical meetings, Tracy, you and I should not be running tactical meetings because we like, we like shiny object syndrome is not just like a theme for us. It is like a way of life that we've parked in. And, you know, and so, and that's really important on the strategy side. But if you over strategize on that, what happens is that you create unsustainable expectations. You can't introduce any accountability, and then you're focused on like Rero mapping and getting that thing dialed in, instead of just like the simple things of like data quality and, you know, like fixing the issues that users are users are actually raising. So,
Speaker 2 00:54:11 No, I think that's right. I think, I mean, what's funny is it's not like us, we can't do tactical things. It's just that we need to see that tactical connected to something in a way that I think purely tactical people, don't like, they're like, okay, you tell me to lick a thousand envelopes and mail 'em out. Sure. No problem. And you and I are always the people who are like, yeah, no problem. We'll lick a thousand envelopes, but why like, what's the goal here, you know, like is the goal
Speaker 1 00:54:40 To that's where I'm at. I feel like, you know, in 10 minutes I'd be like, okay, how can you get a robot to do this? And like, uh, I, well, what I, uh, I, what I'd say on this is we absolutely see. And I, like, I fall into this trap all the time. I understand how important the tactics are. Yeah. Like I see the value of them and I value them so much. Like I am often envious of people that can just go do the maintenance stuff. And it, like, it's constantly ripping my life apart in all sorts of ways that I can find zero routine. It's just part of how I'm shaped and what I struggle with. And so, um, when, when, and I've noticed this too, when you and I are working with someone who is just same thing every day, does the, the tortoise part of living and the tortoise part of tactics really, really well. Like I have so much mad respect for that. And that is the key to strong digital transformation is to treat it like tortoise, not hair work. <laugh> like, you have to dial it back to so boring that you and I cannot handle it. And, and is that's a lot of transformation work is really slow and methodical on the human stack side.
Speaker 2 00:55:54 I'm thinking of every executive team meeting with Yumi and Rachel.
Speaker 1 00:55:58 Oh my gosh. Yes. And yes. Uh, you know, and, uh, and we should just say, uh, thank you, Rachel, for all of that participation and, uh, how many times you must have gone on mute and done pushups. So
Speaker 2 00:56:12 Yeah. Also thank you for making us both better and more conscientious managers and better and more conscientious thinkers about our work, because it's really easy for people to be blind to their own impact. And, you know, this is a whole nother recording, and frankly, we should have Rachel on, but we should, you know, being a conscientious, it's okay. To be, you be conscientious about that impact of how you as a manager are spinning up your team. Like that was a huge impact on our executive team. And that was amazing.
Speaker 1 00:56:53 And, um, and for years before that, like this didn't, this did not start with Rachel. Yeah. Um, you know, like the executive team before that with Angela and Justin and Jenny all try. Right.
Speaker 2 00:57:06 That was before my era
Speaker 1 00:57:07 I'll try exactly. But, uh, but the same thing, and I feel like, yeah, they, they have done all, like all of those cast of characters have done so much to be like, Hey, this is like, we, you know, we need you to like, leave the room, exit the building while we now yeah. Do some of the things you've talked about. So yeah, I think that all, that's all that makes sense. The last one, the last, um, vital is accountability. And I, I, I always say with accountability when we're talking this through is that there are three forms of it. So when we put the accountability, like pulls up on one side or the other, the one side is ignored and the other side is recognized. And the point there is that I think often I was raised thinking of accountability as you get in trouble, if you do it wrong.
Speaker 1 00:57:56 And that is better, that that's the middle ground type of accountability. And it's better than the worst form of accountability, which is ignor, you know, and this is a parenting thing as well. Like the worst, the worst thing you can do with humans is to ignore their efforts. Um, and I think that when it comes to digital transformation and the human stack, there is so there's so much confusion around what are we supposed to be doing with it that you, that leaders don't feel able to know what to recognize and feel mean by policing it. And so the only other option at that point is to move to ignoring it. And that I don't think that's irrational and I'm not like, I, I actually wanna say, like, that makes a bundle of sense to put it in your, your words. Um, and so part of what, when we are calling this, when we don't know what we don't know, what happens is that you ignore, you ignore the misbehaviors around, you know, around this and you, you don't know where to point them.
Speaker 1 00:59:03 And so, um, and then of course the best form of it is recognize in good work. And so a simple version of that is that when we do our framework, which I think we're gonna talk about next, but when we do the framework, one of the things that we look at is how do you make it so that you can complain in less than 30 seconds on the page that you're on. And if, if users will do that, it is so important to reward that with positive accountability by saying, yeah, thanks for submitting this. We're taking it, we're looking at it. Here's the update on it. Here's what we did with it. You know? Um, and, and so when, when accountability is really well there, we're, you know, like we get to a place where we're looking at, you know, this is, this is, um, you're, you're actually making the system better.
Speaker 1 00:59:52 And you're accountable to the users that are submitting things to you for making the system better. And so that's my last point on all of this is that part of what we've done together is figure out how do the dominoes fall. Yeah. You know, around this work, how do the, how, how do you act on it? And, and I feel like if, if there's magic on from me on it, it is looking at the numbers and being able to say, like, I think this is what's going on at a high level with the organization. And then understanding here is with these, with these six vitals here is the order that we need to, uh, approach this on. And it's so far it's been the same order, um, every time. And I think that that's one of the biggest learnings for us is that there is a, a way to work on this.
Speaker 1 01:00:45 And Kevin, to your point, the absolute first step is a roadmap, uh, is digital strategy in starting there. Um, and I, I don't wanna say more about that because I feel like you, you can't like there's more to it. And I would be afraid for people to just like, like try and execute on these one at a time. That's not how it works. Um, I'm not trying to turn this episode into a sales call, but what I will say is the, we have, we have the diagnostic review to talk all this through with organizations it's sliding scale so that smaller organizations can afford it. And, and what we are able to do in, you know, a three hour session with a team around just understanding, here's what it looks like. And here's, what's next for you really gets that. Here's our, here's what we think, uh, we know about what you don't know and that's what the diagnostic is supposed to do. Um, and it doesn't mean that we're not learning more, but I also feel like, you know, we have, we have learned quite a bit about that in, in this, in, in dialing this in,
Speaker 2 01:01:47 Well, I would offer two things. And then I think that's like the way to kind of wrap this up and put a bow on it. But the two things I will offer is one, um, it's funny, you take it to parenting, which is absolutely a skillset that I'm learning and I've shared it on this recording before, you know, I kind of grew up rough. Like we didn't, you know, without getting into the big story of it, which you can always listen to. Cuz I think I recorded a chunk of it, but you know, it's taken my mom 85 years to finally say to me quietly over dinner one night, you know, Hey, like your childhood was pretty heinous. Huh <laugh> um, and you know, that's all I need from mom. Right. But why I'm even saying that is because this is, is sort of a no judgment, no shame.
Speaker 2 01:02:42 We're all products of our upbringing kind of process. And it is perfectly natural. And as I'm learning as a parent, perfectly natural to just resort to the shit that you know, works right. And for some of us, the, the stuff that we no works, isn't healthy for where we want to go. And that's been a huge lesson of, of parenting. And I think leading organizations through this, you know, as leaders of organizations as business people, you know, we need to give ourselves that solution of shame so we can get to the heart of the matter. And it is so easy to ignore things because our fears, our resentments, our shame, our unwillingness to learn our, you know, absolute insecurities is individuals will hold us back. But when we dive into it, the other thing I will say is in all of these works that we've done with these clients, there's profound relief, you know, and that's also true with parenting. Like you, you validate the positive and folks are super relieved. They're like, yeah. And if you're able to sort of shamelessly and forthrightly saying, here's the stuff we need to work on, it's actually profoundly relieving. And that has been a common thread that I've observed in all of these engagements is the profound relief of just discovering what is
Speaker 1 01:04:15 Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm so glad that you're, I I'm so glad we're ending on this point. Yeah. And, and it's a really the important one, which is that, um, what, what we did set out to do was to say, here are some handholds that you should not be shamed about. Like there's no good bad here. There's where you're at. And part of what's going on in the human stack is that human behavior is emotionally led. Right? Yep. And so, um, and so if you, if you, if you like, but these aren't emotions and I think that's part of the point is what we wanna say is if you start to talk about these things, you can start to get at the emotions that surround them when you unwrap those emotions. And you're exactly right. You make it a shame free place to talk. Like doesn't like, there's no moral failure for being where you're at on these, on, you know, in this, in this, these vitals, like that's fine.
Speaker 1 01:05:16 That's where you're at. Um, it becomes such a different conversation and you can, and, and also I think there's a lot of trauma responses around technology. There's a lot of fear. Yep. Uh, there's a lot of frustration. There's a lot of learned helplessness, which, um, and, and so part of what you, part of what we're doing is taking, and especially from, from people who have had the most resistance to technology, that's shrouded in a lot of fear and frustration and, and social shaming, like it's embarrassing to not be good at something. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think a lot of what we are trying to do is say it's better to be where we're at and then how do we move forward? And that happens to, to your point, um, you know, Y yesterday on the, we are for good podcast of the power of a conversation. And yeah. Um, and I think that what, what I would say on the review is that when we host the conversation, we can do it in a way that releases a lot of the tension, this existed around this for a long time, because like, they're like, we're a new agent in the conversation and we, we can kind of equalize some of that. And that's been really interesting to watch as well.
Speaker 2 01:06:30 Yeah. And I absolutely think by the way, Tim, you know, to, to our earlier discussion around, like, what's the Tim magic, what's the Traci magic, you know, is this foreshadowing? I don't know, but I think, you know, based on where you and I are going next, yeah, you should absolutely sell this because this is Tim magic. This is the thing that, you know, I came to rely upon you for, as a leader over the past two years and said, okay, like Tim gets this in a way that I don't. And I get some shit that Tim doesn't get and that's okay. But if we didn't make an intentional space around understanding and dissecting that we would, we would've gone bonkers with each other pretty quick, but we, I think so we created a space where, you know, and through the nudging of all the people we've listed, you know, like, it's like, look, you two, come into a room and it's like, whatever's happening stops.
Speaker 2 01:07:32 You know? And we're like, okay, if that's true, then here's how we both have to play our roles and parts in that. And I think, yeah, this is just another way of saying it's okay to have something that feels like an unnatural motion, but I don't look at my Peloton and wish I were biking on it. I get on my Peloton and I let them validate my feelings. I cry a little bit. I drink water and no, my matter how lousy of a day I'm having or how poorly I've done on the leaderboard, it doesn't matter because when I get off, I feel better. And I think that's the kind of process we need for technology. And that's what, what this work has culminated in for you
Speaker 1 01:08:17 We're ending right there. That is such a great image of like, nobody wants, nobody wants to, and yet you feel better after. So, yeah. Uh, and thanks for those nice, those nice words. Um, oh,
Speaker 2 01:08:29 Absolutely. It's easy, Tim. You've said nice words to me before. And I'm like, ah, leave me alone. <laugh> you know, so here's some nice,
Speaker 1 01:08:37 I like nice words. I'm nervous. Like I, I, I crave it like, yeah, no, tell me good things about myself. I'm not too ashamed to ask for that. So <laugh> anyway, uh,
Speaker 2 01:08:46 Thanks everybody. Yeah. Thank you. Our listeners,
Speaker 1 01:08:49 Those of you that listen all the way through. Yeah. Like, yeah. Like you deserve a t-shirt or something. Uh, not that we have one, but you know, you
Speaker 2 01:08:56 We're, we're working on just getting better signage right now, but
Speaker 1 01:09:00 We both hope you have a, we hope you have a, t-shirt put your favorite one on in our honor and say, good job you for lifting all the way to the end. And we are ending right there.
Speaker 2 01:09:13 This is Tracy croak
Speaker 1 01:09:15 And I'm Tim Lockey.
Speaker 2 01:09:16 And you've been listening to why it matters an independent production that captures our passions, personalities, and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy.
Speaker 1 01:09:27 All of that's important, but even more important. We are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning.
Speaker 2 01:09:36 We are, are so grateful that you've been listening to us. We have no idea why you'd wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you're stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system, or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say.
Speaker 1 01:09:52 Whatever the reason, whether it's a bet or you're a believer, would you hit subscribe, or if you've already done that, would you mind leaving us a review? And if you're really brave or wanna pu punish someone, please recommend this podcast to your friends, enemies, and family,
Speaker 2 01:10:07 And all kidding aside. Thanks for tuning in. And we are so glad that you're here.
