Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. I am Tracy. Crohn's Zac director of innovation here at now. It matters I'm Tim Lockie CEO. Thanks for joining us best handoff ever between us, by the way, that was so smooth. And then we got to talk about it and talk about it, but let's talk about it and make it awkward. Um, so yeah, uh, we are, I, if this were like the eighties, I would say, like, we have a very special episode. Um, but it's not, this is 2021. And what I want to say is why it matters is committed to really having in-depth conversations in our world about topics that matter and things that will affect all of our work, both in it and outside of it. So I am super pleased today to present our guest, uh, Dwayne Richards, who I met through a tech event online. And I will let introduce himself because Dwayne like has more introductions about who he does. And I'm like, yeah. Tell me more about that. So don't we?
Speaker 1 00:01:21 Yeah. So Tracy and Tim, so thank you so much for having me so a little bit about me. I am the head anti-racist in charge of the anti-racism bike club, which is an anti-racism education workshop that I give to organizations big and small to kids, even to schools, just people all over the world. I've trained tens of thousands of people and how to be anti-racist, which is my main gig. I'm also a bestselling author. My books are over my right shoulder and I also am an advice columnist for slate. So I talk about parenting and from a dad's perspective and I give advice on how to be a better parent. And, um, usually my inbox is filled with hate mail from people who don't agree with me, but that comes with the character that comes with the territory. I still love it. And yeah, it's been fantastic and life is good. Can't complain. I mean, I cook a plate, but I'm not going to,
Speaker 0 00:02:29 That's amazing. Um, for, for our listeners, the reason why doing this here, that like really just hits to the heart of something that I care about a lot, um, is, you know, after kind of seeing Duveen work in the sort of tech world and talking about what it means to be anti-racist, uh, anti racism fight club is actually pretty amazing. Uh, you didn't mention your TEDx talk or any of the other stuff that you've done, but I contacted doing it. I said, look, I, I appreciate this. I want to know about this, but you've done enough of these presentations and topics and things where I assume what happens is you're vetted by like a PR team or a marketing person or a corporate image people. And they're like, okay, so look, we want you to talk about stuff, but maybe not so much this other stuff, or maybe could you round the corners here or not be so pointed over there?
Speaker 0 00:03:40 And I said, Dwayne, I don't care about the stuff you're rounding the corners on. I want to know about all that other stuff you're asked to admit. And I said, I would venture that. You've got a list in your head of all the stuff that you really want to stay, but you can't. And that's why I want this podcast to exist for it's a day. Um, and with that as a lead in, I would say like, obviously this puts you in some really interesting contexts. You were just talking about like going down to Texas prior to, uh, us hitting record. So, you know, you're in that context, what can you say to that context? And what can you say that you're not going to be able to say in that world let's start there because I know it exists. It exists for all of us, right?
Speaker 1 00:04:27 Yeah, yeah. No doubt, Tracy. So how do I explain this in a way that makes sense? So there are some organizations that are like, no, you're not going to talk. There's the stuff that you just cannot talk about. Like you can't make reference to white supremacy, can't make reference to white privilege. You can't make reference to a lot of things because quite frankly, before I even get to that, I, there is an organization that will remain nameless. They cannot, I can't slam this company because I just don't, I don't roll that way. But I will tell you that this company is a company that everyone's heard of. They're huge, huge, huge, huge. And they wanted me to do, they had me do like a pilot session on anti-racism. So with our leadership team and I, this was the unfiltered version. There was cursing. There was, there was, um, talk of white supremacy, talk about all this stuff.
Speaker 1 00:05:39 And I, I thought I crushed it. Right? Cause like I thought like, man, I hit these people. They, this is what they need. And then like about a week passes, I follow up like, Hey, so we're going to move forward and train your whole organization. Well, um, uh, do we, I'm sorry. The like the rhetoric and the things you were saying just really made us feel uncomfortable. And I don't think they will. We went with another person and then I, like, I looked up this person, right. This Lily white woman and talking about anti-racism and like, it's just so academic. And so like not in your, basically all this company did this large company, just check the box. They're just like, okay, we did it. Let's move on. But Tracy, to your point, there's there are some organizations, big organizations are like, look doing, just do your thing.
Speaker 1 00:06:41 I want you to be you. Like, this is what we need. Like we, and I love that. And quite frankly, what makes my anti-racism courses so popular and so successful is I think to let me be me and quite frankly, I would not want to work with an organization. It's like, yeah, you can't say this to me. And you can't say this group, like, all right, find someone else. I'm not your dude. There's plenty of those people that are going to check the box. Do you want one of my favorite quotes is, do you want to grow or do you want to be comfortable? Because, all right. Yeah. You want to be comfortable. Do you want to grow? Because you can't do both. So which one do you want to be? So if you want to grow, you're going to be a little bit uncomfortable. You want to be comfortable. You're not going to grow. So that's really what it comes down to in that regard. So I don't bend for anyone. I think I have enough gravitas out here where I can just be like, look, this is who I am and this is what I do. And if you like it, great, if not find someone else,
Speaker 0 00:07:40 How long did it take you to get in that position where you're like, I'm super comfortable just saying that and putting that out there. And I've got no worries about whether or not somebody takes me up on that.
Speaker 1 00:07:55 So, you know, the cool kid answer would be like, I felt that way from the jump, which is bullshit. That's not how, that's not how it rolled. Like in the beginning you have to get your foot in the door to build momentum. It gets some runway. So people understand like, Hey, this guy is worth hiring. So once I built the runway and I got, you know, all these big time, fortune 100 companies under my belt, as far as training is concerned that and all of these great testimonials, then it's like, now I can be who I am. And not to say like before I wasn't, it's just that it wasn't as in your face, like I keep trying to push the envelope, push the envelope off, but like the edge of the table before to see if it would fall or not. But I think Tracy, one of the things that I look at now, when I look at anti-racism and like what, what I do is how so often I feel like I want, there's still stuff that I just do not say no matter how, like in your face, I want to be, I'll give you example.
Speaker 1 00:09:05 I truly believe that every, not some, not most, all of the human rights atrocities in the United States, history been committed by white people. That's I believe that every single one of them, every single one of them genocides slavery, lynching, Jim Crow, laws, just January 6th. W like, whatever it is, all of this stuff, white people, white people, white people, white people, white people, all of them, every single one of them, not like there's very few. If any exceptions, if like maybe, maybe to throw nine 11 in there as an exception. But I mean, if you want to, I think that's the biddable. I mean,
Speaker 0 00:09:50 Yeah. I was going to say, it depends on what period of time we're looking at. If you're looking at the day of that's different than what happened the previous 30 years.
Speaker 1 00:10:00 Yeah. There you go. Exactly. So it's just, it's white people. And the thing is, is that I can't really say that because then the one thing is white fragility is a real thing. They, the one thing I learned in this line of work is that white people just do not like being called on their shit. They don't. And part of that, and the thing about being a black person in America is that no pun intended my skin is just much thicker. It's just, I I've been dealing with this since I was a kid. So people saying, I'm not good enough, and I'm not this, I'm not that I'm not this. So it's like, when people say that, I'm like, oh, okay, this is another person saying it. But then as soon as you call a white person on it, like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, because they've never had to deal with it. They don't like being called out. They don't like being wrong. They don't like to be at fault. They don't like to be viewed as heinous creatures who did all these bad things. And, but I've been viewed as a heinous creature my entire life. And it's like, see, it doesn't feel very good. Does it? And a lot of the fear around like, I'm sorry, I'm ranting now, but I just, I'm just going to do
Speaker 1 00:11:22 So like a lot of the fear around critical race theory, like just jumping, changing subjects a little bit is that I'm an anti-racist facilitator. So first off like, oh, we can have these cubes learn about critical roost. I was like, first off. Cool, critical race theory is not being taught to elementary school kids. Okay. This is a college level course. That's the first thing. And but if you want to get back to like some of the tenets of critical race theory, it comes down to teaching your kids the truth. AKA white people have done some bad shit and they need to be called on it. Not the Christopher Columbus discovered America nonsense that your kiddos are learning and St. John's elementary school. It is like, Hey, slavery's bad genocides, bad lynching. It's bad. All these things are bad. Jim Crow, laws, red lining the Tulsa, all these things these kids need to learn about.
Speaker 1 00:12:21 And the reason why these white folks, especially in red states are so against this. So against this, it's just comes down to this. It's just fear. They are so afraid that using a metaphor that when black people get a hold of the handle of the whip, so to speak that they're going to be like, they're going to be treated as bad as we were throughout history. As soon as their little white babies, as soon as Preston and Chloe get to learn all this stuff about, oh my gosh, like this is black people are. So I feel so bad about what's going on to black people throughout history. And then, you know, Creston and Blake and Chloe are like, oh my God, we need to do our thing to protect black people, because this is what they went through is so bad. And then once they grow up to be anti-racist, then white supremacy dies because the number one thing that keeps white supremacy alive is not the politicians, not the clan, not the proud boys, not any of those idiots. It's good white people who do nothing, that's it, that's what keeps white supremacy alive. And as soon as they show up, if kids grow up to be bigger and stronger and understand that, like, Hey, they have huge power to do stuff that things change.
Speaker 0 00:13:36 It's so easy. I know, honestly, like it's so easy as white people not to do anything cause you don't get your worldview challenged. Right. And you know, what's interesting, you know, I mean, there was a thousand things that were interesting in what you just said, but the thing that just stood out to me in all of this is, you know, what folks like, we just had to put this in a frame of reference last weekend. Like we had what I called to my mother a modern day Klan rally right here in my hometown of Livermore. And it was a bunch of folks without a permit, having a rally in our downtown, talking about the evils of critical race theory, the gay agenda, the sort of like victory of Trump in 2020 and a month and a bunch of these other related topics. But the thing that, that, that connected this was, you know, you don't understand critical race theory until you get to college because it's a super nuanced kind of thing that really, and secondly, if you really understood it for what it was, you would know that it's about level setting, not about like revenge politics, right?
Speaker 0 00:15:04 And that fear is totally rooted in the idea of revenge. Because I feel like as a white person, you're always kind of marginally aware of atrocities committed by white people. And it goes into that fear and shame cycle. And you're like, oh God, I don't want this to happen to me. I don't want this to happen to my family. So if I let go of this and allow other folks to have power over me, they might just do it to me,
Speaker 1 00:15:37 Tracy. I mean, you just said it in a very articulate, very smooth way. Really all this is is all critical race theory and all the tenants of it. It's just the truth. That's all it is. It's just basically the truth and people are so deathly afraid. And because they're just like, Hey, I don't want to be treated as bad as black people. One thing that I always tell white people is this. It's like, look, you actually put this in my newsletter. Um, the other day, a quick plug for my newsletter is every Tuesday free newsletter. It just type in my name D O Y I N, tech that the 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, get my newsletter every Tuesday. Okay. Anyway,
Speaker 2 00:16:25 It was better by the way, I love this about your newsletter. When you sign up for it, it says, go to your inbox and click on the verification thing. I haven't seen almost anybody else do that. And I love the tech behind that. So. All right.
Speaker 1 00:16:39 Yes. Oh, thank you. So, and Tim, you brought, so I'm going to actually going to reference last Tuesday's newsletter, where I talked about, you know, if you could add anything in your life, whether it's perfect health or you know, the love of your life or all the money in the world, you can get anything you want, whatever you ask for the one caveat though, unfortunately, is that you'd have to do it as a black person in America. And it's like, what do you do it? And quite frankly, most people are like, hell no. I went through that. I know there's not enough money in the world. There's not enough love in the world. I don't want it to deal with that. And that is just proof positive of the fact that racism is a huge problem in America. Like people who say that whenever someone says, oh, systemic racism is not a thing.
Speaker 1 00:17:32 Okay, cool. Would you be a black person for a month? Be me for a month. Cool. If you don't think it's a thing, be me for a month, what do you want to do that? No, no. I want to do that. You're just admitting that just have a grace in then the thing that's all you're doing. It's like, no, I mean, it could be a LeBron Beyonce, any of these people, Oprah Baraq bottom line is these guys have money, 10,000 square foot mansions. But to many people, they're still N words and they still are, and they're treated as such in America. And it's like, yeah, if you're a white person, you don't want to deal with that. I mean, it's be me for maybe me for a month and see all the racism that I deal with on a daily basis. You're like, you'd be, you'd be curled up in the fetal position after like three days.
Speaker 1 00:18:18 And that's just a fact of the matter. It's like, it's, it's, this is not for the weary being a black man or black person in America today. Does that make the fragility thing? Just that much more insulting? Oh, it's completely tennis. Not even that it's insulting. It's just, it's just still pathetic. It just like, it's just like, God, no, there's just so weak man. Like it's like, I kind of like equate it to you're just on a swing set and the playground is a five-year old and you barely have like a little scratches and draw blood and you're just on the floor, like crying hysterically. That's what I, that's what I think of like, no, get your ass up, man. Like really? You're rolling around the ground over a little scratch on your arm. Like, look, I have, I got a blood, a gunshot wound in my head right now.
Speaker 1 00:19:16 Like, I'm like, I'm just wiping my set off with a little band-aid on and I'm going about my business. You're rolling on the ground over a scratch on your arm. Come on. That. That's the way I feel like get over yourself. You're so freaking soft. You're so soft. Like this is that's bothering you. The fact that you're being called out on the atrocity, the fact that I'm calling you out on your bullshit, that you have like, Hey, you have a black lives matter flag on your, on your lawn. But it, as soon as I walked by, you're like, oh my gosh, the blood person. But like, I'm calling you out on that. Like, yeah, it's so easy to have a freaking sign on your yard to look like you're woke. But at the end of the day, you're not doing anything. You're probably voting against equitable housing, your neighborhood.
Speaker 1 00:19:57 And it's just like, so often it's the liberal white person that feels like he or she is beyond reproach. And it's like not the Trump supporter, Maga hat idiots. It's just these people who are like, I voted for Obama twice. Know who voted for Obama twice. Any Cooper voted for Obama twice. So it's like, you look at these people and they have all these signs and they go to these marches and they think like, oh my gosh, I'm so great. Look at me, I'm captain Caucasian with my little latte and my Birkenstocks and I drive a full boat. I'm so cool. And it's like, what are you actually doing? I don't care about your signs. I don't care about who you voted for. I want to know what you're doing to help the BiPAP community. And a lot of times it's just a lot of performance art, God, you know,
Speaker 0 00:20:47 That just resonates deeply in my heart for a million reasons. I think it's funny because you talk about like falling off the swing and getting a, like, you know, scratch on your arm. Right. And sometimes like when one of the kids injures themselves, you know, the question I ask them is, are you really? Yeah, exactly. I mean, I say to them, I said, are you really in that much pain or are you just surprised this happens to you? Right. And that's gotten them to parse their reaction. And they're like, actually I'm just really surprised. Or like, no, I stepped on attack. And the thing is like a half inch into my foot and it really hurts. Right. Like, but I think, you know, to sort of extend that to what you were just talking about, that surprise of like, oh crap, there's more to do. It catches the most sanctimonious white folks by surprise. And it terrifies the non sanctimonious ones. Right.
Speaker 1 00:22:01 And does,
Speaker 0 00:22:03 I know, I was just gonna say, and so like when you're in a boardroom navigating this, because you've been asked to help folks unpick these issues, like how much of it is actually getting through to them and how much of it is sort of like therapeutic handholding from, from where you sit.
Speaker 1 00:22:26 That's a fantastic question. And a lot of it, it depends on the client. Sometimes you, you hit them over the head or they get the scratch and they're like, oh my gosh, they're rolling on the ground crying. And then it's like, I have to hug them and I have to stroke their hair and be like, it's okay. It's okay. And that part of it is not the actual training to get better. It's just trying to help them get to the point where they're actually coherent enough where I can actually kit them with the stuff that they're paying me to do. So there, there is that. And I think that usually comes from the woke white people though, the liberal white people and quite in bringing up the whole Capitan Caucasian thing that I talked about earlier, it's a lot. And really what Catholic Caucasian is like a white savior.
Speaker 1 00:23:23 It's the one who thinks like he or she is like the one that's going to save, save all these colored people from themselves and all that stuff. Right. So when you tell them that, Hey, you're centering yourself here. You're not centering the experience of the BiPAP community. You're trying to make yourself feel good and look good. And that's not helpful. It's actually detrimental to what we're trying to do here. And a lot of times that they get offended, like, oh, they'll say it's like, oh, why do we even bother helping these people? Why do I even bother? And then they end up going away. And that's part of what's happening right now. Um, I read on 5 30, 8 part of USA today, too, that, that stat about how, um, issue like, um, which call interest in black lives matter. It's gone down George Floyd, way down, but conversely, trust of police officers went way up.
Speaker 1 00:24:28 So it's like, they went so like, and think about how that makes people who look like me feel we just saw a nine minute murder on camera with a dude calling out for a dead mama to say him by a rogue racist cop and white folks are like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We trust cops more now. And we trust black people less. Now what the hell? Like we're going in the opposite direction? Like, how do you think that makes us feel? It makes us feel like the whole thing about black lives matter if you like our lives do not matter. And that just makes us even more scared. It makes us feel even more marginalized than we did before, which is saying a hell of a lot.
Speaker 2 00:25:16 Well, I'm just, I just want to clock in this conversation that when you talk about, you know, why liberal woke folks, that's Tracy and I too. So I want to say liberal, don't put me in that bucket. I'm a libertarian. That's very different. All I'm saying is that there are limits to our fragility as well, which I am. I just don't want to say, I'm terrified. Those are going to get hit in this call, which will just be interesting if that happens. So, um, you know, and it, it does, that's fine. But do you have anything? I was, I was just, I'm listening to you talk about the steer about who holds the whip. Um, and I just read something on that the other day that was like saying, that means there's a whip to hold. Why is there a whip in the first place? And I just, I like the framing of what you're talking about as truth versus fear, and that there is fear on both sides, but those they're not equivalent outcomes for that fear. Like we're worried about losing, you know, like, like loyalty program levels of privilege, not our lives. And I just feel like it's so important that this identify like, sure, they're steering on both sides, but they're not equivalent fears or genders of the same thing. Is that okay,
Speaker 1 00:26:40 So 10 you made two fantastic points. Um, the one about the web, the reason why it, why the hell is there a whip to begin with? From the beginning of time it's always been a cat and mouse thing. There's always someone who needs to be in charge. There's always the oppressed and the oppressor. I mean, for whatever reason and not to sound like this, you know, Massachusetts hippie, which at heart I am is that if we all just knew that we could live amongst each other. And if we focused on love and just focus on the fact that there's enough for everyone, we don't have to oppress anyone. We don't have to make people feel bad. We don't need to make people feel less than because all it comes down to with people feel like there's not going to be enough for me. There's not going to be enough for my family.
Speaker 1 00:27:34 There's not going to be enough of this or that, or the other thing that's where all of this oppression comes from. And when they look at, you know, anti-racism training or, um, affirmative action or any of these things that are going to give people like me an opportunity to get a piece of the pie, what they feel is a finite pie. They feel like it's just not enough for like, they're taking a percentage of my pie. I don't want that. But really, and truly it's an infinite pie. There's no, there's enough for everyone. I'm not taking anything off your table. You're not taking anything off my table. And if people just truly understood the way the universe works, we wouldn't be here in this, having these conversations, but we're not there because everyone is so afraid. It really, what it comes down to is just loosening your grip on what you perceive to be yours. And that's really, if people could just do that, we would be in a much better position.
Speaker 0 00:28:33 This is why I call myself a libertarian by the ATM for everything they're doing just said. And the problem that I see, particularly like, I'm always going to take this back to the corporate world because you know, I've got a bone to pick in some regards in that area. But like you are in these institutions of extraordinary money, power and privilege where your access to money, power, and privilege is what drives your ability to get things done. So now you're in sort of this like boiler room of money, power, and privilege talking about giving up money, power, and privilege for the sake of making the access to money, power, and privilege much more equitable, right? That that's, doesn't compute in the worlds that I've seen. And it gets the fear behind that gets in the way of actually having a real debate about what issues actually do exist. And I think, you know, from where I sit, you know, I can't have a debate about, you know, what should, and shouldn't be funded by which mechanisms of what government entities and under what circumstances, because it always gets conflated into, well, you know, what you're proposing is just, wide-scale affirmative action. And you know, like that's just going to make America communist. And I'm like, you know, let's unpick all that fear. And by the time you're unpicking all that fear, you just you've forgotten what the original topic was. You know,
Speaker 1 00:30:23 You know your point, I've got to interrupt you. I,
Speaker 0 00:30:25 No, no, that was it.
Speaker 1 00:30:27 No, this is good. Because one thing that I would want to ask them in those situations, it's like, what is it that you want? Like, what are they, what is your end state? Like, what is the perfect state for you? What does that look like? And of course you'd have to probably inject them with true serum in order to get that result or that answer from them because it is it like, look, we just want black people and other people of color to just know their place and not to rise up and just do menial jobs and not get in our way and just stay in the hood and don't move into our communities and don't date our women. And don't do like, what, what is it like? I mean, that's what I want to know. And quite frankly, you look at the brilliance of the brilliance of Trump's campaign messaging of make America.
Speaker 1 00:31:16 Great. Again, it's obviously I'm very much against this, but you can't argue its effectiveness because what it's saying is make America great. Again, is the perfect racist dog whistle. It's like, what, when was America great? Oh, I know when Jim Crow laws exist, when black people were getting the crap beat out of them in the field, when black people didn't vote, when black people knew their places, when they wouldn't look at our women, when they wouldn't look at us on the eye where they wouldn't work with us, he wouldn't live in our neighborhoods. All of that's when America was great and they not when's, um, N-word was president for eight years. That, that wasn't it. That ain't it. We need to go back to when it was great. Again, let's make it great again. And that's what they're saying. And that's why that messaging is so freaking powerful. And it's basically one of these people are wearing their hats. It's like, it's the perfect sign. I'm like, okay, I know what that guy's stance or that woman's stance. So yeah, it's um,
Speaker 0 00:32:17 I mean, you know, even to put a finer point on it, it's not just from what I've observed, the demand for equitable access it's from what I've observed. Also the idea that there are some DEI trainings that I have sat in on, in the span of 20, some odd years that I swear to the gods are shaped along the lines of, I need a black person to tell me I am okay as a white person. And I am a good person for wanting to talk about racism and doing my utmost best to try and understand, or not a topic that doesn't affect me. But could we please just make this go away because of my profound discomfort around not understanding the topic from an experiential perspective in the first place. And am I still good?
Speaker 1 00:33:20 That's the, you just, what you just ended that sentence with? Is, am I still good? That is so powerful because white guilt is a thing. White guilt is what prevents action from taking place because so many fragile white people are just like, I just need to know. You need to assure me that I'm still good. You did assure me that I'm still an okay person. And it's like, what I want to do is just say, grow up. Like just, just grow up, be a grown ass man. Be a grown ass woman, be a grown ass adult and be like, look, I am dealing with all types of racism and no one's hugging me. No, one's patting my head say it's okay. And get over it. And we're going to work together. It's like, and I have to hold your hand or the oppressor of me and say, it's okay. There was a situation. And I, I wish I knew the specifics of it, but, um, God, this is really frustrating, but I'm going to say it real quick. Some, a white person was convicted of some crime in a courtroom. And I know this happens. It's actually happened. And the black bailiff was like, like hugging this person like stroke. I think it was a woman stroking her hair that gets okay. It's okay. Do you remember this?
Speaker 0 00:34:41 I saw this in the news. And everybody was like, what an amazing heroin? This like bailiff is.
Speaker 1 00:34:48 Yeah. But it's like, would this ever happen? Flip would a white person ever be like stroking of a black person that it's okay. Like that, that stuff does not happen. And like we have to incorporate being a black person means that you're always sorry, you got it. You have to say, sorry, sort of so many things. It's like, oh my gosh, I'm sorry that I did you. Oh my gosh. I mean, Tracy, there's times on social media where like, I want to like hit these folks. Like these people who follow me with like some hard hitting, like truly like raw dog, like anti-racism stuff. But I don't because they're not ready for it. And then they go nuts. And then I find myself having to apologize because they're so freaking fragile. Some of them, not all of them, some of them I'm like, <inaudible> give it to me more palpable. The whole thing about the Jackie Robinson thing. Like I have to be Jackie Robinson. I got to be the guy who delivered it to them on a nice plate, you know, was so aware, like in a way that they could either cut up all nicely. That's how I have to deliver it to them. And that's really frustrating because I wanted this deliberate way. I want to deliberate not, I can't always do that
Speaker 2 00:36:11 Because you're also a dad and Tim, this is something that you were asking about. You know, I want you to ask about this. I don't want this to just be like Tim sits and listens though. No, this is great. I mean, this is totally great, but like taking notes about my fragility, like Trey said, it's great. I will say this before we move on from that. Yeah. Tracy, I'm so glad that you landed on the Amyas still good because I think almost all that fear boils down to self concept. Like if your concept of yourself can't hold. And so I told you the story really quickly in the pre pre record time, Dwayne. But you know, when my daughter was 16, she told me I was sexist. And you know, like I had a moment where for once I didn't say something back and it really shifted my ability to actually look at myself in that that was really helpful for myself.
Speaker 2 00:37:11 And I find myself going back to those moments over and over and over. And that was the question, oh, I can't be sexist because I'm a good person. And sexism, sexism is bad. So that can apply to me. The math was that simple. Like it is embarrassing how simple the math is. I can't be sexist because I'm good. Like that is how the math went on. That. I just feel like that keeps coming up over and over for us. It doesn't matter if you're woke or not. Like that keeps coming up. The only defense on that, because you know, the only defense on that is pursuit of truth. I'm curious. Maybe I should ask it as a question, you know? Um, do you think that the, the way around that is authentically wanting to know the truth now more than wanting to think that you're good. Does that, does that question make sense?
Speaker 1 00:38:04 No, it makes sense. It's not just about wanting to know the truth. It's just not centering yourself and leaving your ego at the door. Cause it's like the, when your ego gets in the way, then it's like, you make it about you when it's not about you. It's like you, if you truly want to make the world a better place, you can't, you can't focus on yourself. I mean, I compare, I, I feel like I am, I, the terminology I use in my trainings is ally and training. I don't believe in allies because it's like, there's no, I mean, is there an award for being an ally? It's sort of like a course, you go through to be an ally. There's no freaking course. It's just like, it's constant growth, constant evolution. So I believe that I'm an ally and trading for women's rights and feminism and in doing so I've made some boneheaded mistakes and where people are like, oh my gosh, what are you doing, man?
Speaker 1 00:38:58 Like, I'll give you an example. Um, that like on international women's day, I said something so stupid. I was like, no, on international women's day, we need to celebrate the men who, who help women be whatever they want to be. Right. No, I literally said that thinking it was a good idea at the time. Right. And I got summarily just demolished, crushed, just hammered. And I'm sitting here. It was weird. It's like an out-of-body experience. Like I jumped outside of myself and I was like, I hit myself in the piece. Like, dude, look at what you just wrote. Can you believe he just wrote that? And I was like, oh my God, I actually did. And the reason why I tell that story is like, I owned it. I apologized. And I was like, I messed up. And I do feel like I'm a good person, but I don't want to center myself in this.
Speaker 1 00:39:54 If I sent her myself in this, I'm like, oh, whatever, these sensitive women, they're just doing all this stuff. Like, no, I took myself out of it and I put myself in their shoes and I was like, Hey, I understand. Like I gotta be better, man. That's not okay. As a leader. Like I can't say stuff like that. I can't. And I truly, it was, my heart was in the right place. But if you know, impact is greater than intent, so I just have to roll with it. And that's kind of what I'm getting out too, is like, you have to not center yourself in and you got to beat your ego at the door.
Speaker 2 00:40:24 I like that because what? Well, I don't know if I liked that. What I hear is the issue isn't truth versus am I still good? The issue is, am I, is the issue quit making it about you anyway, because as long as that's the question, like you can't get past it. I really appreciated that. That's that's my son.
Speaker 0 00:40:45 It's really interesting. I have, um, I have a friend that I ski with. That's like a very bourgeoisie sentence. I know. Um, but I mean,
Speaker 1 00:40:54 And then you ride your pellet. Did you ride your Peloton too? Is that something that you did before you went skiing,
Speaker 0 00:41:00 Trading on a Peloton right now?
Speaker 2 00:41:08 So glad we have that on recording.
Speaker 0 00:41:11 I am that I am that like, okay, but you grew up in the Northeast, right? We were just talking about that. So like skiing in the seventies was not the same as skiing now, like skiing in the seventies. It was a family thing now it's like, yeah, the only the Bush YZ swine goes skiing. Um, but what's interesting is I have, you know, to one of your earlier points, I've skied with a whole bunch of folks through the years. But, uh, a friend of mine that I met, you know, through the years, he's like a former pro racer. He's got like really tons of experiences taught me some really humbling shit on the slopes. Like he's also a black Republican and to your earlier point,
Speaker 1 00:42:02 Exactly.
Speaker 0 00:42:02 Right. You know, the swine, the bourgeoisie swine, we ski together. And we, we looked down our noses at the rest of the world, um, you know, from the chairlift.
Speaker 0 00:42:14 But like, what was funny was like, you know, Trump came online and you know, he and I were really talking about that deeply. And he was like, you know, like I have never had to talk about being black more than I have in the past four years in the circles that I run. And he was like, it never like my friends, even my most conservative friends are like, racism is fucking bullshit. And the only thing that we really need to discuss is what we do to make sure that it doesn't continue to be bullshit. And he was like, this was a moment of profound, broken faith in everything that he had around him, because he was like, suddenly it was not like racism is bullshit. And all we really need to talk about is how we fix the bullshit. It was like, well, is racism real? You know, like the unreality that entered his world was sort of a really deep moment of broken faith in something that was otherwise, you know, to an earlier point you made like there is no correlation. And some of the most hella racist people I've ever met are like white liberals. You know what I'm saying? Like, there is no correlation, this is deeper. And that's what I'm trying to drive at. It's not about political ideology. It's about personal positioning in all of this.
Speaker 1 00:43:52 And Tracy, to your point, I mean, this is like the theme of this interview is like, is I, am I still good? Is like, yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up is because when you look at white liberals, not all of them, of course, but some of them, the reason why they have their black lives matter of science in their yards, the way reason why they, they go to these marches it's because they want to be like, they need to be viewed as I'm still good. I'm still good. Look, look, look at the sign. I'm still good. I'm not one of those. I'm not one of those like people, but they don't do any of the real action to be better. They just put on the performance because it satisfies ego of am I still good? I'm still good because I have the sign in my yard. I'm good. Like that's really what it comes down to.
Speaker 0 00:44:39 Well, to your earlier point, too, like to, to the sort of milk toast trainer that that company brought in. I was, I literally caught myself thinking, oh dear God, please tell me she's also alleged to be in, because that would be like a holy trifecta of anti-racism soft training would be sort of an older, white lesbian woman. You know,
Speaker 1 00:45:02 I dunno,
Speaker 0 00:45:05 I dunno. I was saying like, oh, please tell me. Because like, that's the thing that I feel like gets lost just as easily in the boardroom, as it does in reality that like, there is a profound relief by not making the discussion about my ego and my reaction. There is a, like, you know, I've been kicked in the mouth, not physically, but literally by friends who are like, nah, that's just some hella racist, fucking bullshit. And you need to get over that. And here's, here's a pointer, go do this. But like, sorry, try again. Like I can accept that because that person is still my friend and I'm like, great. But you know, this deeper question of, am I still good? Am I still allowed to have the things in my life that I have? You know, it's sort of like, we're all living the plot of Sophie's choice and we don't know it.
Speaker 0 00:46:15 You know what I'm saying? And I would so much rather like, okay, like personal static, I hate lawn signs. I hate them. Like, I hate all lawn decorations. Like we worked on two campaigns, my wife and I this fall. And I was like, do we have to put their damn signs in our yard? I just like looking at like my yard. Right? Like, so like, you know, I'm not a bad person, cause I don't want to put a sign up in my yard. But like, why can't we get to that point of like it's actions over performance. And it's because of the performance factor is so much easier. And I feel like I see that all the time,
Speaker 1 00:46:58 So much easier. And it, and quite frankly, for people who aren't willing to think critically, it gets the results that they want. So it's like, Hey, oh, she has a sign in her yard. She's a good person moving on. It's like people who don't think critically, who don't want to do the homework, it gets them the results that they want. And that's, it's just not cool.
Speaker 0 00:47:18 And coming from where you started, you know, like, cause your, your beginning, if I remember correctly was you were like, Hey, I'm going to Instagram, me taking care of my kids. Right. Like none of that is a critical discussion of race, but yet all of it is,
Speaker 1 00:47:42 Oh God, it's so, so a lot of people have seen the viral photo of me. It's actually over my right shoulder kind of up there, but we've kind of cut off, but it's it's so yeah. So, uh, me brushing my oldest daughter's hair while having a baby and the baby carrier. Right. So that now, if either of you did that and posted it on social media, BFD big fucking deal. Nobody cares. But the fact that here I am a black man doing that taken care. I mean, the reason why it went viral or it there's so many things that converged into that, that made it
Speaker 0 00:48:34 The assumptions white folks make about black fatherhood. Let's start there.
Speaker 1 00:48:38 Oh, there you go. There's that? That's one of them the, um, back that I'm taking care of two girls, two little girls, the fact that they are multi-racial girls, they're not like just black girls. They're, you know, they're part Japanese part white part black. The fact that I'm sorry, I got to say this a somewhat decent looking black man. So like, there's like a lot of these things converged and it's just like, oh, one other thing that's very important to notice is that to note, is that back then? The news? Oh, there it is. There's the book there, the photo, um, the new cycle was, there was, I mean, there was no Trump in his cronies dominating the news cycle. I think the one thing that happened during that new cycle was, um, Chris Christie and like the bridge thing, like, which was really not a huge deal, but that was the only thing that was going on. And then the winter Olympics, which really very few people gave a damn about, except for you, Tracy, since you like to ski,
Speaker 0 00:49:50 I am that Booz Rosie swine. I totally own that
Speaker 1 00:49:55 Stonehill
Speaker 0 00:49:55 Slalom. Yes, please.
Speaker 1 00:49:57 Yes, exactly. So when this photo went crazy, it's because there was no other competition for it. And then I was all over the place, GMA the today show CNN, uh, sunrise, Australia. I mean everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. And quite frankly, I had a moment and I think Tim appreciate this as a dad. I mean, I could've been like, oh my gosh, I, it came to a fork in the road. I had two choices I could have been like, no, I'm going to be the cool guy. And just be the guy who just like, talked about how amazing I am. And like have all these moms throw their panties at me. Like that was, I could have done that. Yeah. Right. Or, or which obviously I did, I did not go that way. I went the other way where I was like, look, I'm gonna use this as an opportunity to change the discussion on what it means to be a dad in America, not to mention it, dad, uh, black that were just saying like, Hey, there are so many of us doing what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 00:51:08 And I want to just open the discussion and shed light on them. So this is not viewed as abnormal. And I think I started that trend and I created an Instagram feed where I just shared not only just black dads, but a lot of my feed is black dads, but it's dads of all ethnicities, but really I want to shed light on black dads doing amazing things so they can see like, Hey, this guy, it's not just him. There's so many of us out there. And really that helps to change the paradigm of what it really means to be a black man in America to understand that we're not just, I wasn't a unicorn. There's so many of us out there that are doing great work with our kids.
Speaker 2 00:51:50 Yeah. Thanks for sharing that nice job. I'm a fork in the road. Um, and
Speaker 1 00:51:55 Yeah, it was tempting though. It was testing, but I wonder right where
Speaker 2 00:51:59 I went the other way you could have had your own fashion line by now. I think
Speaker 1 00:52:03 Totally, totally. I would have. I mean, my whole closet could have been made out of like women's underwear. I mean parkers and like, you know, ties everything, hats and then crazy.
Speaker 2 00:52:15 Yeah. But then you'd be asking yourself, am I still good all the time? Like us and you know, you don't want that. So
Speaker 1 00:52:21 Yeah, no, we will not done now. No way
Speaker 2 00:52:25 Let's do talk about, I was really excited to see your, uh, your slate feed around, um, articles that you write about fatherhood. I'm really curious, um, about what, what fatherhood has meant for you. Do you worry that you're exposing your kids and making them targets because of all the hate mail that you get? Um, is that something that you, that you worry about, um, you know, is there a cost to the work that you do as a dad?
Speaker 1 00:52:57 So yeah. I mean, I think that any person who, or any black person who does what he or she does has that level of fear around them in your kids. But I think too, the one thing I remind myself is that I'm doing this for them. I'm not doing to them. And part of it is I understand that there is an inherent risk in putting myself out there, but I need to fight to create a more equitable world for my children and everyone else's children. And I can't sit on the sidelines and hope that it happens. Like if you want something done, right, do it, your damn self. And I know that sometimes that there are going to be haters and racists and other, you know, people out there who aren't evolved in this want to cause trouble. But at the end of the day, I can't concern myself with them. I have to stick with the mission I got to do what's best for my family, because quite frankly, the status quo is more dangerous to my daughters. Then, you know, some perceived threat out there that may or may not exist. I know what exists out there when the status quo and I need to do my part to fight against it.
Speaker 2 00:54:28 That, that, um, that makes sense. I also wonder if the math is really different for you just thinking about white fragility and the kids that fall down, you know, and, and do you want to console them? I'm guessing that part of the math for you as a parent is I need to prep them for a hard life that they are going to walk into in a way that I don't think I had to think about for my kids, because that makes sense. Am I right about that?
Speaker 1 00:54:57 Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, quite frankly, they're going to go through stuff that I don't have to deal with because we're talking about, I mean, they're going to deal with the woman factor, the female factor in addition to being a person of color. And that's, that's no joke. I mean, just thinking about it from a, um, a financial perspective and like there's stats out there that say that black women are the most educated demographic in America by a long shot. It's not even close, but they're also the least paid. I mean, they make women, black women with master's degrees make the same amount as white men with associate's degrees. And that's why black women are just saddled with so much debt because they're not making any money and they have all this education and they have all these bills to pay. And like, that's one aspect then it's like, obviously the misogyny aspect and racism aspect, there's just a lot to them. So like, I try to teach them about being resilient because you're gonna, there's no way they're not going to get knocked down and they're going to get knocked down and it's going to hurt just like I've been knocked down, but you just got to get back up. You got to get, got to get back up one more time and you get knocked down. Like every time that's really the way I'd tell them. And hopefully it will work for them. It's
Speaker 0 00:56:23 Interesting. I'm connecting this with Tim. Like one of the recordings of this that's going to come out probably before this one does is a conversation with a woman named Tiffany Spencer who founded an organization to upskill folks on like tech and code and in her case Salesforce. And she talks a lot about generational wealth, you know, and you know, the thing about her program is that it works with students from historically black colleges and universities to better position them in the tech world. So that it's not like you're starting out at the help desk. You're starting out as, you know, an associate manager or a manager because we've done this work together and you're not only comfortable stepping into it. You have the skill sets that people are looking for stepping into it. And you know, I'm, I'm connecting to this because generational wealth is also a factor in all of this and wealth and privilege and fear also go very much hand in hand, right?
Speaker 0 00:57:31 Like you can poke as much fun of me as you like for, for liking skiing because nowadays in 2021, you have to have money to go skiing. And what fucking sucks about that is that isn't what it used to be. But now it's like part of generational wealth, right? So it's like, you know, now I, as a white person who skis have a new fear and that is please don't take the mountains away from me, which is so like abstract and weird from the day-to-day moments that like really do break faith and institutions. Right. Like I, you know, from where my, where I sit, like, I'm not just queer, I'm sort of like overtly can't fucking hide it queer. Um, and you know, it was really fun and notes this, uh, like, but even in that moment, like I can certainly recount times from the past where it's like, yup, that's just what life is like holding hands with a same-sex partner and having a car drive by and have someone throw like a glass bottle at you. Like, that's just what it is. You, you get that resiliency. However, your perspective looks, you're like, that's just what we live through. But yet the amount of times that those things have been racially motivated in my world are exactly zero. You know? And I think, you know, building on the earlier discussion of critical race theory, the problem here is that folks don't realize that you're layering more and more things on top of a human being, in a manner that truly inhibits their ability to work, you know? Yes.
Speaker 1 00:59:20 Yeah. It's, there's so empathy. I think, well, first off empathy is important, but I also think empathy is overrated. And I think the reason why I say it's overrated it's because empathy is just like, Hey, you know, gosh, when like you deal with racism, like that really sucks. Like I can't, I mean, I can just imagine how the human eyes and that must feel for you and the discussion was for lunch. So compassion is what I tell people to strive for compassion is empathy plus action. So to make sure that you fuel that and then put into work to ensure that that does not happen again to that person who's suffering. And so often, like what we see when we're talking about racism is that people are just kind of like the reason why the white interest is declined. It's like, they're looking at this like, oh my God, this is a shit load of work.
Speaker 1 01:00:18 It's a lot of work to fight against racism. It's tiring. It's just, it's hard. And the thing is, it takes a good ass white person to be like, you know what? I have my own drama. I got my own shit to deal with. Like, my mom is sick and like, my kids are sick. I'm not making, I lost my job. I got all this stuff going on, but you know what, I'm still going to show up and fight for people who don't look like me. Like how many white people are willing to deal with their own drama. In addition to fighting for people who don't look like them to get equity, not very many because they have their own stuff to deal with. And whether they help black people or not. Doesn't change their, their quality of life one way or the other, not one bit.
Speaker 1 01:01:03 So, and that's what white supremacy thrives on it. And that's what they count on is that white people are going to look at this bite and be like, yeah, I don't know. I, I want to deal with this. And then you go back to doing nothing because it's so hard to fight against this insidious, the various monster that's out there. And so far white supremacy has proven itself to be, you know, permittable. That is why, when we're talking about like anti-racism training per kids, it's like, if you teach them from the jump to be anti-racist and it becomes their norm, then they fight against white supremacy at every turn. And white supremacy was like, oh, whoa, hold on a second. That's a problem. That's a problem. We can't have that. That's why they're standing up at school board meetings, getting in fist fights and doing all that stuff to ensure that these white kids are taught that. So here we are when got to keep fighting to make sure that they are taught that
Speaker 0 01:02:01 I think that's so important because I would say this, like you write every single one of us has some sort of crushing externality in our world, right? Like, and at the same time, I think what gets lost in the discussion of racism and undoing racism, not only just in the boardrooms, but in, in everyday life is the idea that it's not a trade off. Right. You know, and the idea that what you're not supposed to do is make yourself a martyr. You know, what you're supposed to do is what is within the realm of possibility for you to do. And the more you understand about your power and privilege, the more suddenly becomes within the realm of possibility of what you can do. You know? And we forget that because, you know, folks make it an all or nothing in the, in the horrific kind of like narratives now that are out there are even further separating out into an all or nothing kind of debate.
Speaker 1 01:03:22 Yeah. This is just it's there's so Tracy, all of this, I mean, first off this conversation has been so amazing. And the reason why I love this conversation is because we have to have more of these honest dialogues about what it truly means in America to be who we are and be able to bring our full selves to life. And just one very quick story is when I tell some of my people that I train, that I deal with racism every single day of my life, people are like, oh, some people are rolling their eyes, like seriously, dude, like, come on, man. Like get over yourself. But they view racism as just white hoods and being an bombed when I'm walking on the street. And that ain't it like that, that ain't it like that is such a cartoonish version of racism. Racism has, I don't want to see a ball because evolution is usually a good thing. It is mutated and it's nutated and did something way more difficult to identify way more difficult to call out. And that's, that's, what's up. Like so many people are now it comes down to Gaslight, oh seriously. Now you're calling this racism, like, okay, pulling out the race card. And it's like, if you make you feel something like, do the mind, the crazy one, like, I really feel like what this happened was racist. So yeah.
Speaker 0 01:04:55 Yeah. Am I, the crazy one is always where it lands. That's right. Like someday I'll tell you other things about like stories from my world that, you know, you're, you're left sitting there and you're like, wow, my, the crazy one. Okay. Yeah. I get it. Go ahead, Tim. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 01:05:13 Thank you so much for this conversation. I know we're coming up to the end of our time. Um,
Speaker 2 01:05:17 And I, I wish we had two more hours
Speaker 1 01:05:20 Because it's
Speaker 2 01:05:22 Really challenging for me, uh, which I, I appreciate. I know that's not the point, but I actually know we need more of these kinds of conversations, unexpected them to be comfortable. Um, but one, one thing that, one thing that keeps occurring to me is that if the point is equality here, whenever the oppressed are asking for victims to reassure them, they're denying that equality, right? They can't, that equality can exist in, in that moment where, you know, I'm asking you to reassure me, I'm a good person. I just, I feel like we need to get, and I'm speaking to white people here. We need to get our heads clear about, we have to at least get tough enough to show up for the conversation or we can't like, there's no, there's no next step, because if you're spending all your time, just like having our hair and making sure that our fragile egos are okay, like you can't get further to the training. And the, and I think I can imagine a fear for you is that we start to mistake that for the training itself. Um, and you know, that I can, I can totally see myself being like, oh, that was great. That that just was such a good training and missing the whole point. Um, so just really, I appreciate your willingness to be candid and, um, and you know, trust that we can at least handle the conversation. I really appreciate that.
Speaker 1 01:06:49 My pleasure. And that's such a good point. Uh, this has been so wonderful until you make such a good point because so many people think like the whole handholding hair stroking is the training. That's like that, ain't it. I'm just trying to get you to like, be a coherent human being. But I mean, Hey, it's just so exhausting, but I still show up. I still show up every day and do it
Speaker 0 01:07:15 Titled this episode, the handholding eight, the training. Thank
Speaker 1 01:07:19 You. Am I still good?
Speaker 2 01:07:23 Still
Speaker 0 01:07:23 Good. Thank you so much today. Uh, I am sincerely optimistic that our paths will cross again and thank you for being really candid, straightforward, and honest, uh, because that's really what the world does need right now.
Speaker 1 01:07:42 Yes. Well, I appreciate you guys for bringing me on and I can't wait to share this with my following. And so they added a bigger insight onto how I tick and what I do.
Speaker 0 01:07:59 I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 2 01:08:04 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services from offering, advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 0 01:08:13 You've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
