Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. I'm Tracy, <inaudible> director of innovation. Uh, now it matters.
Speaker 0 00:00:19 I'm Tim Locky. I'm the stalwart companion. I said at this time, I know what it means does not mean toads.
Speaker 1 00:00:27 Yeah. On that was only a fraction of a second too long. It's we're getting so much better at that handoff. That's ridiculous. After another 40 episodes, very polished. We'll get it down. I promise you. No,
Speaker 0 00:00:40 I think of us as between two nerds. That's like, you know, instead of between two firms, I feel like we're just like in between two nerds. Yeah. That's, that's a title
Speaker 1 00:00:50 Anyway. So I'm recording in the future very soon, Tim, I'm really going to mess with you and just be like, welcome everyone
Speaker 0 00:00:59 That will, that will totally mess with me. That will work. Uh, but now that I know about it, I still won't be able to, oh, that's
Speaker 1 00:01:06 The strategy I'm telling you about. I
Speaker 0 00:01:08 Know. Yeah, exactly. It'll still work.
Speaker 1 00:01:10 Uh, anyhow, we are very fortunate to have our guests today whom I actually had the pleasure of getting acquainted with albeit very briefly, only in the past month, uh, Tiffany Spencer, who is COO at e-store consulting and founder of HBCU force, uh, and in fine tradition of why matters, Tiffany? Why don't you introduce yourself? Because, uh, I could only wind up the pitch so much before I just sound like, you know, high art from sycophancy. So there you go.
Speaker 2 00:01:47 Well, those things are right, so it's good. Um, I'm Tiffany Spencer. I am, I'm actually from Cincinnati, Ohio. We didn't talk about that. And I have to live in a floor for a really long time or what some of them cook me a university, such as an HBCU in Daytona beach, Florida founded by Dr. Mary McLeod foun, who is a world-renowned educator, um, and advisor to many, many presidents. So this amazing, amazing woman, um, I've been in the Salesforce ecosystem for over 13 years. I started off as a system. Admin actually was one of the very first 500 certified. So that makes me sound old. I'm sorry. It's just don't calculate anything, you know, I could have started, you know, it's five. So, um, I have, um, worked as a system administrator, a, a Salesforce administrator, a business analyst and consultant, um, for lots of different size companies and types of companies over the years. I mean much a lot of experience in financial services. And, um, I don't even really know what else I've worked in a lot of industries across a lot of clouds. Um, and most recently, as you mentioned, I am the CLL and practice director for ESR consulting group, founder of HBCU force and actually program director and board chair for organization in Orlando called black relatable tick. Oh, cool.
Speaker 1 00:03:23 Yeah, I missed that one. The, um, well, two things, one e-store, which is not an acronym. Um, what, what, what our, what our listeners missed is, you know, I tried to sound smart with Tiffany and the pre-show and I was like, it's sort of an acronym, isn't it? Would you care to tell me what that means? And she's like, no, not what that means at all, but HBC U is an acronym and for our listeners who might not know what that is, um, dive in.
Speaker 2 00:03:58 Yeah, SBCU stands for historically black colleges and universities, the nation given to, um, designation given by the government and years and years ago, as part of this land grants where, um, where on this land, um, universities were built, um, to specifically educate, um, black people. Because if you, you know, maybe know that all places did not want to have black people at their schools, I know that's, you know, it'd be hard for some people to imagine. Um, and so we had to build, um, schools to educate, um, our communities. And so for example, but then cook mail where they're built. Um, she actually bought that land as a landfill was the only land they would sell her. She bought that land for a dollar 50 cents. She started this school with four little girls, but the story goes, she started that school with a dollar 50 cents for little girls and faith in God. And they tell stories about that school, how she would, you know, have to, um, fight off or deter, you know, the client and other people from coming to the school and trying to do harm to the school, um, on our school grounds or some of the original buildings, um, her grave is there on our campus. And so that our schools have lots and lots of history and not just, just lots of history from, from the struggles that, um, that the founders of our universities went through to have a place to educate us. So
Speaker 1 00:05:38 What year was that
Speaker 2 00:05:39 Founded? Um, I don't remember
Speaker 1 00:05:43 Or decades
Speaker 2 00:05:48 I could Google it and tell you,
Speaker 1 00:05:50 I was going to say, you just have that history. So down. I was like,
Speaker 2 00:05:54 Normally I have it up in front of me. Well, so there was two schools. So the original school is, um, the, the stone Institute for girls and then Cookman, um, was a boys school. So that's why it's both stone dash Cookman. There's never two schools that came together.
Speaker 1 00:06:16 Gotcha. See, I was going to ask all these new needling little questions because true story. I was a tour guide in college and our school was part land grant part private. So, you know, I know a lot about kind of like the first land grant act that sort of was like go out and create it. But what I couldn't remember is whether or not it was that land grant that also established HPCs, or if there was a secondary one where that was done as part of the reconstruction, uh, to further education. So I was about to pepper you with a ton of questions, but let me Google that for everyone.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 Yeah, it is 1904. The higher education act is 1965.
Speaker 1 00:07:04 Got it. Yeah. So these are different periods in time from the original sort of land grant.
Speaker 0 00:07:12 Sorry you were at T I did get all the rest of it, but two things. You were a two.
Speaker 1 00:07:19 Yes. I spent three years walking backwards.
Speaker 0 00:07:23 I actually just, I I'm just imagining you like Amber walking, we're walking. It was just a great image I've got going right now. And I suspect you would make ups things. You didn't really know the answer to. Am I correct about that? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:38 Oh, I, I actually memorized so much knowledge about our school. It was ridiculous. We used to your trivia contests for drinking. Um, so I knew like a lot of stuff about our school. What I would make up would be the answers to the questions that parents would ask me that like, just parents shouldn't like, I was giving it to her one time and there was a girl who like, clearly she was like 16 and come from some small Midwest category, like state. Like, I don't even remember which, but like the mother was like, I've always been me. So like the mother was kind of looking at me the whole poor, you know? And she's like, you know, what kind of agenda are you on here? And at the end of the tour, she's like, well, my daughter be having sex at this co at this college. And I was like, what's your
Speaker 0 00:08:37 Daughter,
Speaker 1 00:08:39 Her daughter.
Speaker 2 00:08:42 But she asked you where you going to be in there? I don't understand why
Speaker 0 00:08:47 There are so many questions.
Speaker 1 00:08:50 And I kind
Speaker 2 00:08:51 Of,
Speaker 1 00:08:53 I had to swallow my first, which was with me. And then I had to kind of come up with a quick one to like preserve the fact that we also like lived off of tips that paid for the shots that, you know, paid for the trivia contest. So like, I was like, I mumbled something about, you know, lifestyles and choices. And she was, the mother was like, so not happy. She's like, well, I clearly see the lifestyle you've chosen. And again, the daughter was just like, oh my gosh, anyhow, last we digress. Cause college,
Speaker 0 00:09:33 The other con that is such a weird question. Yeah. Um, I did want to clarify that Esau is backwards four rows, right? Yeah. So it's not, it is not the acronym, which is funny, but I think it's a, I think it was a beautiful story. Um, so yeah,
Speaker 2 00:09:54 Froze for my business. Partner's daughter near rose, who is, who is five, six. She asks about you for every time I talked to her, how's the store doing? What's going on with <inaudible> because that's her company and she's very involved, very engaged at five.
Speaker 0 00:10:16 That's awesome. That's really cool. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:10:19 So let's, let's talk about, I mean, on the theme of college, I think, you know, I kind of reached out to you with my hair on fire, after partners summit, because I was like, this is the first time I have seen a training model that I think accounts for a couple of things. One is the experience of the person going through the program and secondarily the buy-in that is truly necessary for where they land and get employed. And those two things together just was like, wow, HBCU force has really figured out something different. And I would love to know how you built that. And, and what sort of was the thought process behind that and where that experience was derived from?
Speaker 2 00:11:13 Yeah. So the initial idea for HBC for us came from, um, just my involvement at Bethune Cookman, um, you know, at smaller schools, you know, the professors, you know, the deans, so I could just walk into a classroom and, you know, the teacher's like, oh, there's Tiffany, she's an alumni, listen to her. And so they wouldn't let me talk to their students. And I was asking a few of the CIS CS students about their career goals. And I was hearing just random, you know, it help desk or cybersecurity or just, you know, general things, not necessarily UX design or project management or business analysis or even consulting. And so I started to talk to them about what I did and I realized when I said Salesforce, you know, they weren't amazed. They were like, oh my God, you work at Salesforce. That's awesome. And so I'm like, oh, they don't know what Salesforce is.
Speaker 2 00:12:14 They're like, I don't, I don't want to say, you know, um, and so my initial goal was to expose students to Salesforce and some of the careers, because as I have learned over the years is that jobs in the Salesforce ecosystem play, you know, they pay very well. And we see stories all the time of, um, you know, this person was a channel or they were a whatever. And now they're a Salesforce administrator. Now they're making, you know, $70,000. And unfortunately a lot of those stories were not coming from black students, um, or more diverse, you know, individuals at all. I mean, some of them were, you know, they would highlight some, but not at the rate, you were seeing other stories. And so when I, you know, I did a little Google search and found that there was no HBCU initiative, um, at Salesforce in general, um, in, in the ecosystem overall.
Speaker 2 00:13:18 And so I bought the domain, like in my car, literally, I was like, nobody started this well. Um, and so the first thing that I did, um, is I was doing what I call it, volunteer teaching, right. So if I wanted to teach students about Salesforce, well, I can't say, you know, I can't hand them a flyer and say, come learn about Salesforce again, because this is not, they don't, it doesn't have the name recognition like a Microsoft or Google. And so I partnered with the professor to what I do is called volunteer, teach where I could take over a classroom and basically teach students Salesforce. And so that's actually how I started. I did two really bad classes. I mean, they weren't bad, but the students, you know, I was figuring out how to put this curriculum together and what would connect with the students and utilize them Trailhead.
Speaker 2 00:14:13 Um, and that took that model actually, and built out what I want it for HBCU force. So a few things I learned, so one is figuring out how to connect the students to sales wars. Two is I figured out that there were companies that might be interested in, in meeting some students that were learning Salesforce. So I actually, um, there's a, uh, a platinum consulting company. That's maybe a 45 minutes from the dune Cookman. They invited my students to come there. They did a whole half day presentation to my students talking about what is a consultant. They did a, um, a demo for them. They had HR there and then they hired a few of my students as interns paid internships. And that was the first part of the model, right? Students are learning, they're getting credit for it. They're already in class. So they're not doing this outside of class.
Speaker 2 00:15:07 And then if I can get them an internship, either remotely or with a local company where they can get some, instead of working at Walmart or Uber, they can work and get actual job experience. They get paid probably a little bit more than that was check, check, you know, check box number two. And then the third thing is actually getting my students hired. So to my very first student that I had actually just got a job in the equal system where he graduated this past year. And so those are basically the three biggest things that outside of them getting extra certified that are really important to me. Um, and part of that is from working with them. The other part is from doing, working with some career, transitioners find it like a free 10 week training program. And I trained all these people. We did, they did like three super badges.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 We talked about too many things, more things than they needed to be certified. And I tell them, I said, go ahead and start interviewing while you're getting ready to take your certification exam and just, you know, I'm in my head, I'm like, just tell them Tiffany trained you, it's fine. I'm an MPP. You know, just let them know. We worked really hard. You're almost certified, you know, you'll be a great asset. I trained you. You're fine. And they couldn't, they could barely get interviews. Um, and these are people that were not college shootings. They had life experiences. They were amazing. They, I mean, they spent 10 weeks learning Salesforce doing super badges and they were getting told they didn't have enough experience. And I don't know how you get experience without, you know, getting experience. Um, and so I decided I needed to get them that experience. And so I started taking my side projects and giving those individuals my side projects and they put my company on their resume so that they could say that they had experienced.
Speaker 1 00:17:07 That makes a lot of sense. And there's something else really interesting in everything you said, and that is the types of jobs that you described, those students articulating when you first walked into that classroom, there's a very much behind the scenes jobs. And what's really interesting about being a consultant is you personally are the face of the business you're representing. And I think why that's so important is because, you know what HBCU us describes as that model, what that's evolved. Like, you know, this is the Googling I've done that actually is factual. Uh, you know, your model is expose, empower experience employ, and that empowerment part is super important too. I think a lot of ways, because I personally didn't have a vision for my tech career. I just started doing it. No. And then I didn't know, I could have a career until somebody pulled me aside and said, you know, you kind of have a brain for this stuff. Have you thought about consulting? Um, otherwise I would have been content to personally pursue something like the apple certified repair program or, you know, the Microsoft technicians program for, you know, Hewlett Packard or whatever. Right. And when we talk about things like how an ecosystem responds to diversity and equity and inclusion, part of that means changing how that ecosystem looks to itself. Uh, and I feel like that is something that you're doing that is incredibly unique is offering that vision earlier and more often than I think a lot of programs are doing
Speaker 2 00:19:08 Right. Because if you think about, um, if you think about those students, what was most concerning to me is that you're in school. It's a private school of that. So within Cookman, it's not a public university. This is a private four year schools. It's not cheap. And you're going to spend four years to come out and do help desk work, that these were not high paying in those careers. And so it goes to, are you picking this because this is what's been presented to you and how do we present something else so that you see the options because you do have options. So when you think about this idea of about generational wealth and, you know, having students that don't give themselves a student loan debt and that when they come out of school, they have a clear plan. Well, that all comes back to them knowing their career options.
Speaker 2 00:19:59 And so what was most concerning to me is making sure that they understood like, listen, you can be a consultant, they make good money and you can do it. And I can help you get there. You could be a system, you know, a Salesforce administrator or business analyst. And this puts you on a higher paying career path. And that is really what is most important. I have a student that she'll mustard is a graduated. One is making 65,000, the other one's making 60. Now, where does that put them in relation to their parents? And if they're making that at plenty, where can they be? And how does that impact their, their family and their family to be right that
Speaker 1 00:20:48 Quarter million by the time they're 40,
Speaker 2 00:20:51 Which is one of the other things we do is financial planning with them. So I have, I partner with an organization called 8 cents in a jar where I had the meet with her. And we went over there, their offer letter, we went over their, their benefits. We went over their 401k. And we'll do that again to talk about budgeting because all of this is important and changing actual lives. It's not just about a certification,
Speaker 1 00:21:16 The full context in there.
Speaker 0 00:21:20 Yeah, I agree. And I'm just thinking about what that job landscape looks like without someone like you to come in and say, actually, here's a thing called Salesforce, ignore the main for a minute and, you know, look at these options instead. And I, I'm guessing that they think that there's a buildup to those jobs, so it's help desk. And then, and then, and then it is, and what they don't. I think what you're highlighting here is actually not only can you leapfrog, but that help desk job may not actually stack to the place you really want to go. Anyway. Um, I'm curious, based on your experience, how many years do you think you advanced them just by getting them started on that instead of building towards it?
Speaker 2 00:22:14 Oh my gosh. Ah, I, if I use myself as an example, I mean, there are at least four or five years ahead of me at the very least, and that was years ago. And so
Speaker 0 00:22:32 They,
Speaker 2 00:22:35 No, no, no, no, no. I, I mean, it's just years ahead, I tell them that all the time and if you have the proper financial education to know what to do with your money and not blow it, like I was doing,
Speaker 1 00:22:50 I never did that in my twenties.
Speaker 0 00:22:55 Yeah. Um, I think that is,
Speaker 0 00:23:02 That's fine. Do you need a Dean to step away to get okay. Yeah. Um, I'm looking at, uh, 8 cents in our jar and we want to put this organizations, um, you know, the, the link in our show notes here, because I think that that is actually a really important piece that I haven't heard others get at, which is okay. You know, here's the vision, here's the experience here is a path to that kind of a career. Now here's how to understand what's going to happen when you start making, you know, money and, and here's what to do with it. I just think that that is often left. Um, is there more that you want to say about 8 cents in the jar? What they're, what they focus on with
Speaker 2 00:23:52 <inaudible> amazing and their founder LeShae Reeves is actually another HBCU grad and she is just amazing at salary negotiation and budgeting and just overall financial planning and that, that understanding the power of, of your money and what you can do with it makes such a difference long term, the ability to buy a house, the ability to take a vacation, the ability to buy a car, to keep a car, to maintain a car. I mean, these are things that, um, that I think some people take for granted because they are there lessons that are learned in real time. And so when you have the ability to see your parents do certain things or your grandparents, or they have a business, or they have a vacation house, like I've never, I don't know anybody with a vacation house when I was growing up. Like, I didn't, I don't know anybody with a boat, you know, my parents, I mean, thankfully my parents, my parents could, um, you know, but I've seen other people that their parents, you know, gave them money to put a down payment on the house.
Speaker 2 00:25:07 Thank God. My parents had the, you know, my mom is an accounting major, so she's always been about money and they were able to do that. But how many people can't parents can't do that. Right. And so when you think long-term about what those things mean, um, those are the things that 8 cents in a jar, they have several, she has several lessons that she goes through to actually give people practical tips and, and strategies for building out their financial, um, uh, journey. Um, and so that is one piece that was really important to me, right? So facting back over the years and all the mistakes I made, those are all the things that I try to make sure that my participants are aware of how, you know, I teach them about how to make it in a workplace. You know, you're going to enter a place where you might be one of the only black people.
Speaker 2 00:25:57 So let's talk about that to give you strategies, being a consultant, there is especially black in consulting world. There are certain things you have to think about there. And so I have these conversations all the time, not just with college students, I have these conversations with just people in the ecosystem. They're like Tiffany, that our career transitions that know me, that call me, that asked me for meetings on LinkedIn, because they're having insane concerns. And I take all of that information and say, okay, we need to put this into our program because if, because otherwise I'm setting these students up for failure. If I don't do this for them,
Speaker 0 00:26:37 Is there another piece of that that you also help organizations with? So now it matters as a consulting firm. We, we are, um, years in on learning a lot more about diversity equality inclusion. And, uh, I feel like we could have used that kind of a jumpstart as well, just knowing some of those, some of those factors. And, um, is that part of what you are doing as well?
Speaker 2 00:27:06 Yeah, so, um, um, I have been fortunate enough to have a little bit of visibility through the ecosystem. And so when I have companies that reach out to me, they say, oh, we want to partner with HBCU forth. One of the things that I asked is why, and, you know, and I asked them to tell me about their, the culture of their company, um, is diversity important to them and how are they fostering that? And then I offer to, to be a, uh, an extension of their company, if they happen to hire or bring, go on one of my participants, I, I want the feedback to go both ways, because so many times, um, either we don't get feedback like people or it it's, we're blindsided by it. Um, and so being able to get constructive feedback and give it to the person in a way where they can act on it and adjust as important.
Speaker 2 00:28:09 But then on the other hand, I want to make sure that we can give that company feedback because there's so many, um, talented people that have worked at companies like I did, and it was a terrible experience and they needed she back. And so I want to make sure that if my participants are not comfortable, they are experiencing something that I can also give that company feedback. Um, because it's important, both ways you can't, you can say you can hire diverse people all day, but if you do not keep them at your company, then you're wasting time and money. And I don't, I would hope that's not what companies want to do. I would hope that they would want to really change the culture and really see what's happening in this process as to why they're losing their diverse employees. Why, you know, why they have a pipeline problem in the first place. And that goes into so many other areas that companies don't think about that I would like to, you know, we do offer that, um, kind of to be a sounding board and to help actually plan, um, with those companies so that they are successful in their efforts.
Speaker 0 00:29:23 What are does that mean? That you're a pretty selective about which companies you say yes to, we're probably driving it.
Speaker 2 00:29:33 Um, and so it's interesting, right? So when I started HVC force, I really wasn't thinking about money was like, it doesn't take any money for me to train people. I could just, and then I started really planning. I'm like, oh no, wait, I need instructors. And I actually needed a program director. You know what, maybe this does take more money. And so in building out our sponsorship packages, we have made the decision to, to, to sort of be careful with what opportunities we're sharing and which companies we want to put in front of our students, because otherwise I'm setting them up for failure. If I put them inside of a company and I don't coach them now. And what I would hate to have to do, if there's a company listening, I would have, I would hate to have the culture, my person to say, just work there for a year and then quit if they don't value
Speaker 1 00:30:33 Well. So that's actually, you know, Tim's part, one of what I was thinking about, because what I actually found really great about the sponsorship, the way that it's shaped is it's not a like, yay, we're doing another diversity thing and we're giving away our output for free. You as a business are buying into this, which gives us the power to say no to your money. Uh, and I think that is really impactful because it doesn't take driving the outcomes for your students away from HBCU force. Uh, whereas I feel like a lot of programs are like, and we've added more folks to the pipe and that is our output. Um, part two of what I wanted to ask you is actually related to that. And that is what are the trend lines in that? What does that look like when you have to give feedback to companies? We have a lot of folks who listen to this who do own companies, and I'm not a like Tim and I are barely like, like that kind of thing, I think really needs to get out there. So like, what does that look like? You know, when you have to do that with companies, what's the, what are the items that you're like, please, for the love of all things don't do or do do
Speaker 2 00:32:04 So one, it is really important for us to have partnerships, true partnerships. I don't want a company that's just like, gimme five, like people and, you know, thank you very much, right. I really do want to have that feedback with companies. And it's very, very important to have an actual relationship with their talent or HR, whoever this person is, that's do it in the recruiting or whether it's the manager, the HR, whatever. It's super important, because this is an ongoing thing. It's not a one-time thing. Um, and because we're new, I haven't had to have that conversation specifically yet, but I have this with companies when I talk to them, right. To be able to let them know that, that these are things that we're thinking about, their reasons, why, why people don't stay at your company. And we would like to tell you that just in case, if you don't know, right.
Speaker 2 00:32:55 And so those are things that I want to make sure that, that I'm, that I'm bringing up to see the reaction because that's really, really important. And I would imagine what it would look like if I did get feedback is that I would probably schedule a meeting and just, you know, kind of ask specifically about an area or, you know, do you, does your company have a policy for this scenario? Let me tell you why I'm asking right. To be able to give them some context. I think, I don't think I know that, that there are individuals that will minimize their effect on their employees and they will minimize, um, a situation or scenario. And, and there they'll sweep it under the rug, not understanding how much that has hurt one of your employees to the core. And that resentment does not go away. People think time heals all wounds.
Speaker 2 00:34:02 It does not, that is filed and stored, and people will continue to do their jobs until they don't want to do that job for you anymore. Right. And then, and then what the company sees is, oh, they quit, they got another job and that's not actually true. And so my goal is to give them that actual feedback with no, they wanted to stay, but this happened, it was not addressed. Or you address it in this manner. You did not support your employee. And so they chose not to be there anymore. And I think companies need to do a better job of getting that information or trying to find that information. And I want to make sure that if it happens to one of my participants, that I'm giving that information to them,
Speaker 0 00:34:48 That seems particularly important in an employees market that is emerging where like finding talent is actually just, you know, just as complicated as finding customers, um, at this point. And so I think that, um, organizations that have, that are not used to templating out their culture and figuring out how to receive that feedback and how to make adjustments for it, stand at a huge disadvantage just in general. And then if you add into that, um, cultural complexity, you are, you're also just going to find that you can't compete for the talent anymore. Um, and salary is not enough that it just is not, that is not the deciding factor on why people stay,
Speaker 2 00:35:37 Leave an employee's anymore for employers it's not useful, or it's really small. I mean, we don't have all of the perks and benefits that a lot of our larger, more established governments do. But when I put out a job requisition, I had employees that reached out to me that said, I'm really interested in working for minority partner. And they were willing to leave a more established company to come work for east soar. And that should really help partners something about what's happening. Um, I've, you know, I've had our employees say to me that, you know, they didn't realize how much less stress they would have in our environment, right. That there's a value that's being placed on that because it is, it is texting, working in certain environments and, um, it's already happening across the ecosystem, right? Those are, there is a large pool of independent contractors, those independent contractors, less a partner, because you don't want to work there anymore. They didn't feel valued. They didn't feel, they didn't feel safe. They didn't feel heard. I, I can go make money to do this for myself. I don't have to be here.
Speaker 1 00:37:04 It's really funny. I, to my earlier comment, I've always been me. Uh, and I'm the person who will show up, you know, in a tie and a full suit and just confuse the living shit out of people. Um, but I've always done that. And, you know, what's really funny is, you know, too, that my own kind of, part of that experience, you know, one of my first employers, my consulting docket was filled with small to medium religiously slanted organizations ranging from Phoenix to Atlanta. Uh, and they were just like, this is what's on our docket. Go and service them. And I was like, um, okay. Uh, yeah. And you know, that led me into some very uncomfortable circumstances where I was like, before we began the discovery process or the implementation process, I was part of like prayer meetings where we were praying for the salvation of gays in the United States and so forth.
Speaker 1 00:38:19 Um, and I knew I had had a relatively safe environment inside the company I was working for, what I couldn't account for was, you know, me showing up on all of these dockets, like being like here I am, let's get to work. And it was kind of that employer's first experience with those kinds of conflicts and to their measurable crowded, you know, I was talking to the owner of the company back, you know, in the day. And they were like, you know, what, if they do that to you again, bill them for it. And I did, and I never was asked to participate in another meeting again, because they were like, oh, crikey, they're billing me at $250 an hour to sit around doing nothing.
Speaker 1 00:39:14 And, you know, I wasn't the only one that was running into issues there. And it was early on in how that company was forming. And, you know, I think what are alluding to here is there's a lot of companies that fly by the seat of their pants and still make okay decisions. And what I like about what you're talking about is giving a framework to that decision making that makes sense and is a more inclusive framework. Um, and I feel like that is sorely absent. It's sorely absent, both from employers who really don't know how to, or want to talk about race, ethnicity, and like the real complexities of that as employers. It's also really hard for when those employers put those folks on the front lines. And it's really hard for when those folks come home at the end of the day. And what they want to do is let go of the work that they've just done. Um, and it's hard to create solutions for that. So, you know,
Speaker 2 00:40:21 Thank you. So a lot of that last year, too, right? With all of the unrest and protests, and it's hard, you know, some companies, they didn't know what to do, but they at least said, you know what? You might have a lot of stress and feelings going on. If you need to take time off, take time off. And then there are other places that just didn't do anything. Let's not talk about it. And, and they just thought, you know, if we don't address it and nobody will notice,
Speaker 1 00:40:53 They noticed, yep. I was talking to a colleague at another company that took that approach last year. And all, all of the black employees, all few of them quit. They were like, well, we see what this really means, um, for you as an employer. And I think, you know, what that's calls out is we can't work in an era where we're expected to be two different people anymore at work and at home, that was my father's error. You know, he, he worked for the same contractor for 28 years. He was two different people there and not right. That's a very heteronormative, it's very white. It it's very culturally hegemonic, you know, and that's not the world we inhabit
Speaker 2 00:41:51 Knowing you have to change with the times. I mean, I, um, I, as far as asking people their pronouns, well, that is something that is new to me, but I have encountered it enough to know that, okay, I have to include that in, in, into my wife at this point. And I need to teach my consultants. We've had conversations about making sure we're being careful. Don't just say, Hey guys, you know what? I'm, you know, don't just be careful now because this conversation has already happened. It's not, you know, it's, you're aware everybody's here. Nobody can say they're not aware. Right. I feel like for me, I feel like this conversation has happened. And so now there are things that we need to do. And I, I don't, and I, I don't know why people don't feel the need to do that. Even if it's something that you're not, you don't understand, you're not comfortable with whatever that's, you know, that's, it's
Speaker 0 00:42:58 Just business reasons. Even if you don't care about people at all, it's still business. I mean, not caring about people, you know, is bad business. Let's just be clear about that. But, you know, say that you are, um, you, you would at least think that the rats and wasn't behind profit and loss would drive some kind of behavioral change. And I think it is one of those places where, um, behavioral, not everything behavioral is winds up on rationality, the way that, you know, we economists think of it. And I think this has been a point of great exposure on that, where the discomfort of even raising the question or doing something about it is so high, that they would actually prefer to lose people and not address it. Um, and I think you're right. I don't think that people any longer, I don't think it's lack of awareness at this point. I think now it's, it's, it's now a choice or inaction at the very minimum and yeah, I, I am shocked at the in action. Um, I, I understand it, but I'm still shocked at it. Um, so
Speaker 2 00:44:16 Yeah, I agree. I, I, it's just, it's very frustrating to, to see people try to ignore that. And I'm very protective, you know, I'm to, I know what it feels like to be in places that companies that don't work. And I know what that can do to somebody's self-esteem so their confidence in themselves and even knowing who they are. And so I'm just really wanting to make sure that when I'm speaking with students career transitioners that I'm being very honest to try to prepare them for the world that's ahead of them and to make sure they know they have a choice. Some when you were talking about, um, you know, when we're talking about the different roles, sometimes the students don't feel like they deserve a role like that. They don't deserve a salary. They think they haven't paid their dues, right. When you were saying, oh, maybe they think this career path will lead them there.
Speaker 2 00:45:16 Some of them think that they have to pay their dues. They don't realize that that that's, that they you're in school, you are paying your dues. This is still an option. And you are worthy of that. And some people don't feel that. And so this idea of even thinking about, I have this conversation all the time, six figures is not a lot of money. Like it's low six figures. Isn't that 9, 9, 9, you're at one zero. There's a lot in between. And it's not as much money as you think it is, especially in tech. Yeah. Right. And I'm not saying everywhere. Right. But especially in tech. And if that's your degree thinking, yes, you deserve to make a little bit more to get there faster. You can do it because other people are doing it.
Speaker 0 00:46:10 And I love what you're talking about with negotiating being partner bats. Um, and just to the world that might be listening as someone who hires people. I look for people who negotiate people that don't just take a first offer, are the ones who I know will push back on a client when the client's asking for something that they shouldn't be. And I need that kind of backbone in people. And for them to know that is okay to do. And so I'm really glad to hear that that is part of the conversation about being prepped. Um, I, I just think that that is really, really great that you're doing that. Um, I also, Nope, I totally forgot what I was going to say. It was brilliant too. It was like so awesome. It was going to change all of our lives, but now it's gone. So I guess we're just going to have the welcome to every meeting I've ever had with Tim.
Speaker 0 00:47:08 It is a little bit, you're like, yeah, if you're add three to D it just kind of goes away, oh, I know what I was going to say. It was this. So there, the information you're providing there is so critical because there is also, there, there is an important line about knowing what you shouldn't be asking for. So like the millennials stories that are, you know, that come up where people are like, I want, you know, this top level position and they, they don't want to start out. Like, it's hard to gauge where entry is anymore. You know, entry doesn't mean entry. And so I think if you're coming in and pinpointing, Nope, this is actually an, like, you can start right here with the experience that you already have. I just think that that is such powerful life-changing information. I just think about what does that mean, three generations from now, like the work that you're doing on that is just at an economics level. It is mindblowing the kind of, uh, of effects that that will have. So, um, I get very excited about that as you know,
Speaker 2 00:48:13 I know me too, I cried. So one of the career transition was I worked with, she was like a legal assistant. She was, um, having to go into the office through COVID and she was making like $35,000 by, and she is so good. And when she got her first position, she more than doubled her salary. So you can work remotely. I cry like literally, but not stop crying for life. I don't even know how long, because, you know, she just bought a house and I know that that was a big deal for her and just understanding what that meant financially for her. Like that is just,
Speaker 0 00:49:08 Why do you do this? Like, you know what, what's in you that is like, okay, I've gotten this far. And so this is now what's next for me because you're already working a full-time job and you're president of another organization. And I mean, I've looked on LinkedIn and you're also speaking at events and starting user groups. And like, you're not bored. Like where, where does the passion and energy and time for this come from?
Speaker 2 00:49:37 I think I always have this, um, this desire to serve and to help. And I always, so one is, I always knew that I was making, you know, oh, like this, this Salesforce being it's really cool. Let me get paid good money to do this. And I enjoy it. And I wanted to, you know, I was sort of telling people about it, but not a lot. And so when I started going back to the school, I think I am being more involved in the tech community in Orlando. I think I felt more of a responsibility to, to do more, um, especially seeing pep up tech and seeing, you know, that for some military, but what is it true military and all these areas. And I didn't see, you know, I didn't see me in those, um, programs and I just felt a need to do it. So, um, but I've always been a mentor. I've always had a mentee. I've always had somebody that, you know, it's basically my child somewhere that is just, and so this is more just formalizing. And I think being involved beyond this, being involved in the community I in coming, I got a little bit more confidence to, to actually run an organization and run a company, things that have been pulled out of me over the years because of corporate America. So, um, it kind of helped to push me down this path.
Speaker 0 00:51:32 I'm glad that you're on that path. You're doing really important work. Um, and you seem really uniquely qualified to,
Speaker 1 00:51:42 Yeah, it's funny. I hit a point in my career, uh, and I've said this to one of my own coworkers where I'm like, I I've been doing tech in some way, shape or form for 20, some odd years for nonprofits. And I need a destination for the pile of crap that I know to land, right. Like, and the ways of existing in this world to land, uh, that I know how to survive through now. And I do think that surviving is its own form of role modeling, even if it's not a perfect one, but I I've had that moment even in the past year where, um, you know, someone I cared about deeply got a job somewhere and I cried. I was like, oh my God, like I helped introduce this person to this thing. And it worked and they're happy and I'm happy. And I just cried. And I was like, in some ways that makes 20 years of what sometimes felt like extended hand-to-hand combat worth it.
Speaker 2 00:52:56 Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:53:00 And so what I want to ask is, you know, less about, you know, all of the things that we know are the true constraints, um, of the world of it, and the changes that I feel like we've heard articulate in a few of these conversations. You're Tiffany, you're not the only one to bring up the notion of worth, and you're not the only person to bring up the notion of safety. And you're not the only person to bring up the notion of, you know, it's not adequate to just create more. We have to do different. So in all of that, what's the thing that's on articulated for you, where, what keeps you up at night when you think this one thing it keeps me up at night, if it would just change in our world for one degree or five degrees of direction, it would improve the lives of the things that we care about. What is that to you?
Speaker 2 00:54:10 No, um, you know, the, this idea of treating people the way you want to be treated, if nothing else, that people could just do that a little bit more, if they could just a little bit more mindful, I think that would solve many things in many areas. For me, just a little, just a little
Speaker 1 00:54:49 Tim, you and I have talked about this. That's also, I think I consider the kernel of true Christianity even is the idea of like, I'm going to represent how I wish to be treated in this world to others and let the pieces fall where they are. That's a great way of, I think, wrapping our conversation. Um, and I can't thank you enough for your time. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:55:16 That grace, that grace for each other, that is undeserved, it's just missing. And Tiffany that's beautifully said,
Speaker 1 00:55:23 Thank you. I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack. And you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 0 00:55:31 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services from offering, advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 1 00:55:40 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
