Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. I am Tracy director of innovation here at now at matters and also co-founder of why it matters.
Speaker 1 00:00:21 And I'm Tim Lockie and a co-founder CEO, janitor friend, stalwart companion. A lot of, a lot of things there, right? Oh, wait. No. What is it valuable
Speaker 0 00:00:34 Value to cohost? I took all of those things and I summarized them succinctly in corporate speak as valued. Co-host also for folks who are wanting to view the video of this, this is what I'm going to call a very special Wyatt matters, largely because Tim's in full color. Uh, so yeah,
Speaker 1 00:00:56 I'm out of Montana and Montana only has, uh, black and white, uh, internet. So it's really great to be I'm in Phoenix and that's a joke for anybody.
Speaker 0 00:01:06 There are also no, no, no. There are also elements of Montana that are just in black and white. That's true. You know, you drive out of Gallatin valley and suddenly you're like, wow, this is wow. It's like my old gray scale TV. So the sun comes up in an amazing array of gray scale and sets accordingly. It's wonderful. So enough of us, uh,
Speaker 1 00:01:30 We are so excited to be joined today by Mallory Erickson. Um, Mallory, I, I'm going to let you introduce yourself and uh, and then we are going to launch. So, um, Then we're going to really,
Speaker 0 00:01:47 Oh, like the Jeff Bezos penis rocket
Speaker 1 00:01:54 Have no idea,
Speaker 0 00:01:55 No kids, apple has apple is happily labeled us as an explicit podcast for us. So,
Speaker 2 00:02:03 Oh my gosh. Well, I don't really know how to pre-seed that or, but, um, but I'm really excited to be here today with you guys. And my name is Mallory Erickson. I am an executive coach, a fundraising consultant, the creator of a program called the power partners formula. And I host a podcast as well called what the fundraising. Um, and I just am all about helping fundraisers and nonprofits become emboldened and embodied in their fundraising work, figuring out who the right funders are for them and then how to attract them, get in front of them and build partnerships with them that last, the transform the organization organizations and ultimately the world, because they are based on what we can accomplish when we strategically work together to achieve our shared goals. So, so excited to talk about all the different pieces today of that work, um, from executive coaching to, and behavior change to how it all works with tech. So thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 00:03:05 Yeah. And, um, I, I'm really excited to have you, cause I've gotten to know you over the last couple of months and every time we talk, I leave the conversation really excited about life in general. Um, and some of that is I think you, I think, you know what you're about in a way that a lot of people don't like, um, and that was one of the things that struck me the first time I talked with you is you've been on a journey. Um, and, and it's led you to this place where you really are rethinking fundraising first for yourself. And then for others questions so much about who you are and what you do, why this is important. Um, and then you've turned that into how do I help accidental fundraisers, like me who are in situations like that. Um, and so I'm, I'm curious, how, how did you get here? How is, how do you, how did you come to the place where you knew that was what you're about, um, and to feel so comfortable with that?
Speaker 2 00:04:01 Um, maybe I'll start by saying, after spending many years feeling disconnected from my true self. So, you know, you said the word accidental fundraiser. I say that a lot. Um, like so many people in the nonprofit sector, I sort of got promoted up through the ranks and found myself in a managing director role and then an executive director role that came with big fundraising responsibilities. And I hated it. I mean, if you had asked me my least favorite thing, when I was an executive director, I would have, without a doubt said fundraising. And I had a lot of stories about the fact that I was a bad fundraiser because I felt this way and there was no way that good fundraisers could feel this. Um, and I also didn't really feel like there was a space for me to talk about any of my discomfort.
Speaker 2 00:04:44 I felt like I went through one training after another, that was really focused on sort of strategy and next steps, but without any support around just how much vulnerability frankly, is involved in the practice of fundraising. And so I got to this moment in my career where I was like, I don't know if I am going to stay in the non-profit sector. Like, is this really for me, if this is what it looks like to be a nonprofit leader, this, this thing, this fundraising thing that I can't get to feel natural or good for me. And so I went through, um, executive coach certification thinking about that as sort of a new career path for me, right? Like I was like, well, what do I love about leading organizations? I've always loved coaching my staff. I went through executive leadership training. Then I was also trained in behavior change and habit building with Dr.
Speaker 2 00:05:31 BJ saga over at Stanford. Wasn't connected to my fundraising, but just happened to be around the same time, worked with folks at IDEO on design thinking again, not connected to my fundraising that happened around the same time. And those three frameworks kind of like came together in my mind at the same moment for me to take this step back and say, whoa, maybe the way I've been taught to fundraise, isn't the only way to do this. And I started to use lot of the executive coaching tools and principles to sort of examine what are the thoughts and beliefs that are leading me to feel this discomfort. Okay. So I want to throw up before I walk into a major donor meeting, why like why, you know, what are the thoughts and beliefs that are leading to that level of anxiety and stress and how do I start to examine those, unwind those?
Speaker 2 00:06:17 And, and do I want to, or do I want to hold those beliefs right? Or do I actually, when I really look closely believe something really different than what my sort of condition tendencies have been. And so first it really started with me and I ended up once I did that work, taking an organization from a million to 3.8 really fast, um, because I sort of built this, this sort of multi-faceted framework, that combined strategy with executive coaching, with habits and behavior change with design thinking into my fundraising activity and blew the top off that, then I started to talk to other women like, Hey, have you ever felt uncomfortable asking for money, other fundraisers? And you know, more and more there was sort of this like, oh yeah, like, are we allowed to talk about that now? Um, but it was still honestly still a whisper.
Speaker 2 00:07:06 And then in 2020, you know, COVID hit. And, um, everyone at the very beginning of the pandemic was offering like free things, right. They were like all these free concerts and everyone's like going live from their living rooms. Like, and so I sort of took this step back, I didn't know, 11 months old at the time and was like, well, how can I help? Like what can I do? What can I give right now in this super scary time? And I was like, well, I could run a fearless fundraising webinar where I really talk about primarily the executive coaching principles that I've discovered around fundraising. So I put this little blurb online. You guys would be so embarrassed. I don't even think it was linked to my website. Like the tech was really horrific. I don't even know what the form was. You know, I thought I would maybe do it with like 10 or 10 people.
Speaker 2 00:07:49 I just do a group coaching session. I went to bed, I woke up 180 people had signed up and I was like, okay, people are ready to talk about fundraising paralysis. They're ready to talk about why they feel the way they do about fundraising. Let's go. Um, and so I ended up running that, that little class for free for over a thousand people in 2020. And that's ultimately what really kick-started my, my business to really, really focus on this type of work and what led me to then build the power partners formula. Um, so it's a long, a long story, but that is what really sort of brings me to this moment.
Speaker 0 00:08:31 I was going to ask God, there's so many places where my mind goes, because one area where people are also paralyzed is in how to talk about and understand tech as applied in their organizations. But I think we're going to get into that a little bit down the road in the conversation. What I actually want to ask you is in that work, that began as it pertains to fundraising in communities that are white communities that are nonwhite communities that are LGBT, have you found any trends in what the summation of those fears look like and commonalities in what different communities are articulating as what's holding them back?
Speaker 2 00:09:27 You know, I'll be really honest to say that I've never, I've never segmented to sort of see if there are differences. And so I think, and the power partners formula community is incredibly diverse. Um, I will say that I think there's some language that's often used in coaching that can be, um, that can be like exclusionary and that, I think it's really important to have awareness around like the word authenticity, you know? So I talk a lot about alignment, right? Like what does it mean to be aligned and aligned fundraiser where the actions that you're taking are aligned with who you are and who you want to be? You know, when you started this off Tim, by saying that I struck you as somebody who really knew that. And I think one of the things that happened for me is that for many years, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2 00:10:20 And then I slowly kind of started to honestly blow up my life in different ways that were out of alignment. For me, I ended up really long relationship, right after buying a house with someone, right. When my engagement ring was done. Um, I like ended a relationship because I was starting to have this like personal awakening. So then I got all these other areas of my life into alignment, but fundraising still wasn't there. Like I still couldn't figure out how to get that in alignment with who I was. So I talk about that a lot and I think that's something that looks different for everyone, but I think that language and that self knowing that that is universal. Everybody wants that everyone wants to feel like they're taking actions that are aligned with their values and what they believe in the world that they want to see.
Speaker 2 00:11:03 And so I think that's that super universal thing. The other thing that's super important when you think about like equity and justice and its relationship to coaching in general is that I am not like a toxic positivity coach. And I definitely do not believe that a hundred percent of the solution is in your head. There are systematic inequities that cause tremendous problems in our society. Those have to be acknowledged that work has to be done. But the importance of coaching is to recognize that in addition to that, where we have a lot of control that we can exercise a lot of choice that we can exercise in the moment is inside of us. And so I think it's, but I think, and I think a lot of coaches like don't necessarily talk about both things because they want their clients to feel like 100% in control, but I think that's just not true and it's just not, and it's not the, for me from a like social justice, racial justice standpoint, like that is unfair to my community for me to not acknowledge. And it's incorrect to not acknowledge the things that are happening around us too.
Speaker 1 00:12:12 You brought, um, often, um, authenticity, another word like that. I feel like that I've recently discovered is not necessarily universally safe has vulnerability. And so, you know, um, I, I know you've talked about vulnerability and fundraising and so I do wonder about the connection there. If, if you take out some of the language and the core principles of what we're doing and you make them inequitable at just the language, you know, that that actually has implications, right?
Speaker 2 00:12:45 Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting. I think what you're saying is super important and also my own unlearning process is in constant is a constant process, right? So I, even though I feel a deep commitment, um, you know, to showing up questioning the, the systems, the systems are still inside of me. And in many ways I am perpetuating them. And I think every day for me is, uh, grappling with, with those things. And so the way I sometimes talk about vulnerability in this situation is not necessarily personal vulnerability that creates the, the potential for harmful or traumatic experiences for the fundraiser. But where is there? Where can you, you know, vulnerability for me is around oh, and opening, right? Or transparency. And so where can there be organizational opening or organizational transparency or organizational vulnerability, honesty about a challenge you had in 2021, like a real challenge that the organization had in 2021. That to me feels like a more accessible level of vulnerability then. Yeah. It's not safe for our black and brown leaders in this sector to walk into every situation and share something personal when they don't know what the response is going to be. Yeah. We need to do a much better job at protecting and taking care of our people.
Speaker 0 00:14:12 I was, I was going to ask essentially a flavor of the question that Tim just asked, but I want to sort of put a different spin on it because I think we think a lot of like sometimes when we're asking questions of folks and what I want to go back to those saying, I think one of the really interesting things that happened during the pandemic was folks who ordinarily don't need to deal with crushing externalities applied to their lives. Finally had to deal with them. Right. And I mean, if you, if you look at what systemic injustices do they create crushing externalities in your life, sometimes they're small. Sometimes they're huge, but the net effect is distracting your brain from whatever the hell it is you need to do next because you need to consider that as part of whatever's going to happen. So I think one of the areas I wanted to probe into with you was around helping people bridge those moments as a coach, because one of the critiques that a lot of the racial justice movement will say about a lot of anti-racism stuff, to be honest, is that it's, it's very much just holding hands with white folks while they deal with their feelings.
Speaker 0 00:15:38 But I think your pointing to something deeper than that and your pointing to a change of internal alignment. And I would love to hear more about how that factors into the work that you do.
Speaker 2 00:15:56 Gosh, that's really, it's a really interesting question. And, you know, I, first of all, I will say, like, I never sort of positioned myself as either like a DEI expert or an anti-racist expert. Like, I feel like I'm in that work myself with everyone in the conversations that I've had though around trying to, um, sort of process. How do I, first of all, Trudy, LeBron, I think is like one of my sort of go-to coaches around like anti-racist coaching and what does it look like for this industry to really be supporting people more equitably? Um, you know, the very basis of coaching work and of my work with fundraisers is this idea of the cognitive behavior loop, or it's like really this introspection around the cognitive behavior, which I was sort of referencing before, which is this idea that everything that we feel is related to the thoughts and beliefs that we hold.
Speaker 2 00:17:00 And so therefore every way that we should, every way in which we show up all the results that we see, all of that comes back to ultimately a way that we felt that then how to show up in that way. And that way that we felt isn't actually necessarily predetermined because it was, yeah, I had, I had a talk with Lisa, Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett who wrote how emotions are made. And one of the really opening like eye-opening pieces of her work is this idea that so much of what we feel is prediction is our brain like predicting our emotions into the future that we use our past lived experiences to sort of quickly save us metabolic energy by trying to protect us in certain ways where we're, we're actually predicting. But when you actually look at the relationship between what's happening in our body and how we're saying, we're feeling, it's really based on perception and interpretation.
Speaker 2 00:17:59 So our body feels a sense of arousal. Before we click send on an email to a donor, it's our thoughts and beliefs that the donor might be mad at me about asking them for more the donor might, if I asked for more, the donor might not give at all. Oh, but if I send this, thank you, they're going to remember that they're a monthly donor and they'll probably cancel their subscription, right. Or their, their monthly, right. All of those, those thoughts and those beliefs, that's what actually has us interpret that sensation of arousal in our body, as stress, as anxiety, instead of something we're actually in our bodies, it's very similar to excitement, but the thoughts and the beliefs that's actually what makes us feel the way that we do, or w you know, the way that we express, and then that stress that we feel holds us back often from taking that action.
Speaker 2 00:18:51 Like maybe we don't click send on that email. I mean, I feel like one of the things I see with fundraisers in general is just how many, like two to five minute tasks they have on their to-do lists that get bumped week after week after week, that week after week. Right. And I read this quote the other day that was like, procrastination is not a time management issue. It's an emotional management issue. And that's exactly what we're talking about here. Right. And that goes back to the thoughts and the beliefs. And so I think also related to what you were saying before is just like, with everything, all of this has to do with unraveling those thoughts and those beliefs, those condition tendencies, and renegotiating those things in our brains and in our bodies. And I think for white leaders need to, if you need handholding, then you should find a space of other white leaders to like, who like the people who can help handhold you through that process.
Speaker 2 00:19:46 You know, like you need to have awareness around what you need and not continue to put the burden on black and brown leaders to do that work for you. Um, but it is. And you need to really be honest with yourself about whether you're willing to look at your own thoughts and beliefs, because I think that's often the disconnect between the study of something and like letting yourself being co be coached around it. Right. We can read all the self-help books in the world. Advice is not examination of your own thoughts and beliefs. It's not rewiring those things. It's, uh, it's an article, it's a chapter in a book it's at someone else's story. It doesn't become ingrained in you until you really are honest about the thoughts and the beliefs that you're holding.
Speaker 1 00:20:37 Wow. I really liked that answer. That makes a lot of sense. And it raises, I don't know what others think about fundraising, but when I look at it, um, I draw a parallel to how I think about tech, which is that it happens outside of you, right? Like it's a thing that you go do out there just like technology is the thing that you type into a keyboard, or, you know, um, and it's an augmented reality, but it isn't, there's no reason to get so personal about it. And, um, and I think that that's the way I thought about technology for a really long time. And, you know, you and I have talked, so you know, that I'm very much talking about the human stack these days and that, you know, that, that that's a really important thing. Um, and so I, I feel like there's a way that you approach this that's categorically different because you can't, you, you can't just treat it as outside.
Speaker 1 00:21:34 There's, there's a lot of your work that is you have to reconcile who you are first before you're going to fix that, see success out there. Um, and I, I, I do think that that's true of technology as well. Not that anybody here asks, but that is like, that's, that's my platform that's similar to yours is that there's so much around fear in technology. There's so much around. I should be able to do this. There's so little, you know, leadership around here's how executives should think about leading a technology team. Like there is these massive disconnects, but, but none of them are in the API and they're not interoperability. And so they are invisible. Um, and so I love your work because I do feel like you shine, shine a light on the most important part of that, which is inside of us. And I just don't see that, that often, I also, I have this very long here, but I also, um, I'm not actually a suspicious person, but, um, when I hear people talk, I'm like, I wonder if that's true about them? You know, like you hear leaders talk and you're like, oh, no. Like, is that who they really are?
Speaker 1 00:22:46 And so, um, I know, I know the degree to which you have done this level of self-examination because the first time that you and I talked, you told me a story about you demoting yourself. Um, and I like, Hey, people don't do that B they don't tell people they do that. And fee, they don't tell people they do that on the first call with them. And like, I, you hit me at one of the lowest point that I had been in in years. And it was so refreshing to hear somebody else that was like, struggling and had struggled in their past. And so, um, I feel like you kind of put out a challenge, Hey, if you're going to do this, you have to think about it this way. I think, I think people should hear you talk about the topic that you demoted yourself, um, and what, what went into that and, uh, what happened next.
Speaker 2 00:23:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I maybe just want to even start by saying that, you know, so much of my work it's so interesting is actually not like that. It's this way. It's because I don't really now anymore operate in a binary world. Right? It's like, it needs, things need to move in your way. And, and if they don't, then they're not going to feel good, you know, and your way, and my way might not be that different. They might be, it might be super similar actually, but like me ghostwriting an email for you, that's not your voice. You're probably never going to click send on it. Cause it's not your email. I can give you a framework and I can give you a structure. But like, but that's why some of those things, I think don't work because they, they, and I think what you said before so important, which is the piece around that, we try to make these things external that have so much vulnerability in them.
Speaker 2 00:24:40 And I think one of the ways that tech and, and my work and fundraising really overlap is around perfectionism. And just in general, how we as humans often, we don't want to appear stupid, right? Like, it's like the worst thing. Like we are constantly trying to avoid moments of shame where we feel stupid or uneducated enough. We're not good enough for all these things. Those are deep emotional issues that we're all dealing with all the time. And I think fundraising and technology trigger a lot of that. And so if we don't have the awareness around those pieces, then we shut it out and we, we don't ask the right questions and we don't challenge certain things because then we're afraid that we're going to appear in. Perfect. Um, and so, and that, which right, was just another framework of white supremacy. And so it's like, it's all so connected, but okay, I'll answer your actual question.
Speaker 1 00:25:33 Sorry. No, before you do that, then you add, philanthropy's inability to let smell, like they have to be seeing results to keep funding cycles going and in, and in a world of imperfect or impossible measurement standards you find, I think fundraisers are often challenged to say, what's the right thing to do here. I don't really know. And I know what our funders are wanting to hear. So I'm just going to put this on the report because I don't know that it's not true, but I also maybe don't know it is true like that. I feel like funders or fundraisers get stuck in that all the time as well. And there is that links back to a view of, you know, every dollar goes to a kid and perfectionism where there's no room for any kind of risk or innovation, because if you get it wrong, the funding all dries up and one article and that's it. And it's gone. Right? So
Speaker 0 00:26:30 My old boss who used to work at a racial justice organization made peace with that phenomenon Tim long ago, far away. And what he used to say was never, ever, ever let the truth get in the way of a good story.
Speaker 2 00:26:46 Well, let me tell you say, can I say a little something about what you just said? Cause I think it's so critical. I think a lot of our internal narratives around what our funders need to hear what our funders need to see comes from the way that foundations evaluate nonprofits. And it is a tiny percent end of the actual pie. And for many organizations, it's a really tiny percent of the actual pie, but they're letting that narrative drive all of their behavior with their individual donors who actually don't need that story. And what I want organizations to understand is that they have the opportunity to write the narrative around the organization. I got tagged in a post yesterday about charity navigator and what I thought about it. And I kind of went off. And the thing that I said was, look, if you got a, if you have a bronze charity navigator score 50 out of a hundred, because you decided to pay staff living wages, because you decided to try an innovation and risk that ultimately have the ability to eradicate a problem instead of continue to fund it year after year after year after year, because you made other smart leadership decisions, put that fricking thing on the homepage of your website, talk all about it, celebrate it with your, with your donors.
Speaker 2 00:28:10 That is exactly what I would do. I would say loud and proud. We got a 50 out of a hundred on charity navigator because we decided to prioritize these things. This system doesn't value that, but we know that you do. And over here we do too. And we're really proud to stand in that integrity with you,
Speaker 0 00:28:28 God, you know, what's amazing about that is, you know, I'm thinking through my own reactions as somebody who from time to time, people will ask for money or support for something, right. And I find myself going through exactly the emotional process you just said, and that is, you know, if somebody asks me for money for something, either a friend who's like my cat just went into surgery. Here's what my real bills look like. Please help. Or, you know, our nonprofit is doing this thing. I don't look at that as a funder and say, well, you know, before I help you with your cat, can you tell me whether or not you've spent all of your WIC allocation on fruits and vegetables? Or did you buy some chocolate there, right? Or like, you know, before I find your non-profit can, can you please show me your full nine 90 and your salaries?
Speaker 0 00:29:29 I'm like no major donors, donors in general and, and grassroots donors want to know that there is values alignment and takes it all the way back to what you were talking about at the start of this conversation. And that is, there's a separation of alignment that's happening more and more that the pandemic and explicit has made very obvious. And that is institutions that are just going back to business. As usual are no longer in alignment with where people are learning. They have to go needed to go or want to go living through the past two years. And that's extraordinary that you give folks a framework in which to encapsulate that experience. I just want to say I'm kind of blown away. So thank you for that.
Speaker 2 00:30:26 Yeah. Well, I, I appreciate that. And I think this actually goes back to the question that you asked him about when I demoted myself, you know, I think, look, we grow up in this, you know, I grew up in the U S in a society that values certain things and, and, you know, verbalizes and teaches you those values in so many different ways. And so much of our motivation becomes related to the validation for others, from others, and what we believe makes us valuable or good, or, you know, an admirable, any of those things. And I just found myself where I just, I had worked my way up to the top. And I remember saying this to you when you and I talked for the first time and I, I got there and I, I was miserable. And I said, and I had switched between organizations.
Speaker 2 00:31:18 Now I'm still miserable. You know, at first I blamed it on, oh, it was just that organization. You know? And I, and I really, you know, I don't know, I don't think there was necessarily one moment, although it probably was in relationship to sort of blowing up that relationship. I told you about for the first time ever publicly, I first that sort of public, um, share of that. But, um, but you know, I sort of got to this moment where, you know, when I did that, when I ended that relationship, a lot of people were mad at me. I lost a lot in my life. I lost about half of my friends. I had more, there was just more people mad at me than as the people pleaser. I was bored, you know, as I, you know, grew up as it was the first time, I really disappointed a lot of people in my life.
Speaker 2 00:32:00 And I had my own back in a way. I had never had it before. And so all the loss that I experienced around me, I knew myself better than I ever had. And I listened to myself and I did what I knew I had to do as hard and as painful as it was. And I never want to hurt the people around me, but sometimes you hurt yourself when you don't want to hurt the people around you. And so I think once when I saw that, I realized I want this and all the elements of my life, like I don't, you know, my, my dad, I love my dad to death, but you know, when I was working my way up in the nonprofit sector, he would always say things like, don't, you want to go work at Google? Like your sister, like you're so capable.
Speaker 0 00:32:44 And my mother Tracy, oh my God, why aren't you making real money? Yup.
Speaker 2 00:32:51 So, you know, we have all these, I felt like maybe I, I don't know, I just did it. I just was going through the motions. And then I was really unhappy and I really wanted to be happy. And when I really took that look at like, gosh, maybe best case scenario I get, what, 85 years on this planet, like, you know, our good case scenario, maybe I'll be like, my grandma lived to, you know, 90 something, but you know, what do I want to do with it? And like, how do I want to live in alignment with who I am and how my leadership skills are best used and what fills me up and allows me to be a good friend and contribute meaningfully to society. And it just sort of sent me into this self-examination tailspin in the midst of then getting certified as an executive coach and all these things. And, um, and I think the only weight on the other side of staying in this role, keeping an ed was like, what's everyone else going to think? And I just had made the decision that like, I wasn't going to live my life like that anymore, you know, because what, then they're going to put on my tombstone. Everyone thought I was right.
Speaker 1 00:34:01 No, actually people don't like people sense that I, I don't know if, you know, like, I don't know what the physics of it are, but we know when people are not aligned. I think that's one of the things I knew about you right away is that there is a solid alignment all the way through your soul. And that is rare. Um, and people are drawn to it because it is rare and it does start with hard choices, um, and hard circumstances. And so, um, yeah, I, I think that that's, I, I D I feel like that, um, there's a sense of loss that comes before sometimes that that sense of alignment or that sense of alignment is a trade-off that will result in a high amount of loss and people that make that choice. And don't just go along with it are, you know, are stronger, happier.
Speaker 1 00:34:54 Um, and they, they know themselves more so. And I think it is, I think it's important for coaches and leaders, especially to put that out there and say, I've been through this, I've done this myself. You know, I, I am the kind of leader that will challenge you to look inside that's that is, you know, I am doing that also. And I've been in leadership places where it's being asked by a leader that won't do that. And that is, that is scary, like a really bad spot to be in. And so I, I think that, I think you're, um, I think you can articulate that in a way that a lot of people can't. Um, so thank you for being willing to, and, and, um, and thanks for sharing your, your, your story about your engagement, um, that we feel honored that you, that you do that here.
Speaker 0 00:35:45 I know I will back you up on that, Tim. And I will just say, I mean, you know, Mallory, the way that, that plays itself out, I mean, I've known Tim longer as a person and as a friend than I have worked with Tim, and you know, what I can say are, are two things. One is when you have a boss who is aware enough to have those conversations as an employee leaving well, I mean, you know, you might have to go into black and white, but, um, no, like, I mean, Tim and I, like, we just got like a huge client thing over, over, over what, what it was not over the barrel through the hill, down the road. We, we finished a huge step across the line. Thank you. The sports ball thing. Um, and you know, honestly, Tim and I were talking about it earlier in the week that, that it, that it got done.
Speaker 0 00:36:45 And we were like, oh, we feel really good about this. And then there's a component to this work that Tim was like, I freaking hate this. And I now hate it. And I'm like, thank you. I hate it to so much. I just needed to know that you hated it too with me so that we can keep moving forward towards the stuff that we want to do and the stuff that we enjoy. Um, and that's important because it changes how working towards something looks to everyone who works with you. Um, Mallory, my followup is, do you find, I, I, again, I'm just going to keep asking you questions about which you've probably never had any sort of person asked you before. Um, but some of the overlap too, with the way that you do work as a person who lives with a healthy dose of PTSD, your methodologies very much overlap with those that help people shake PTSD, or at least become aware of when they are experiencing it.
Speaker 0 00:37:50 And I'm just wondering again, like, have you had folks, you know, because I am pointing somewhere on being overlooked fallacious, and I apologize where I'm pointing to is the way that it works right now by my assessment is if you are not sort of CIS white male in tech, you know, it's sort of a hunger games as to whether or not you're going to get promoted advanced recognized, and, and frankly supported for the work that you're doing that as a participant, it imparts its own sense of PTSD. So, you know, are you finding that by doing this work with folks, you're actually also helping them unlock advancement in new ways or unlock how to advance others because, you know, getting to that finish line, you know, I used to joke it was like hunger games in my thirties. And, and now that I'm forties, uh, you know, I joke now that the motivation is the picture of the glue factory. They put on your chat on your desk, right. So, you know, are you finding, helping folks on pick that is helping advance? I know that's rather loquacious, but I was trying to drive at a point and I'm not quite clear. I got it all now.
Speaker 2 00:39:21 You did. I think you did. I think I understand. Um, and you know, if I'm just going to be really like open myself, I'll be honest to just say that. Sometimes one of my biggest fears is building some helping or providing a framework where someone can build their confidence and their self-knowing and their alignment in an environment that isn't going to support them. And I'm afraid of what that will mean. And that's something I also really grapple with every day and kind of a choice I've had to make around continuing with my work, even though I can't fix everything around everyone. Um, and that I try to build in exercises and community. It's a big part of the reason why power partners has a monthly group coaching call and then open Facebook group at all. The time is to say, I can't, God, I can't make your board better through this program.
Speaker 2 00:40:20 I can't. I mean, I, if you want to put everyone inside the program and you want to hire me to do a board training, but yeah, I will talk about fundraising fears with your board and we will go there. And let me tell you, I have had board members crying to each other about how uncomfortable they fear fundraising. Like I can break the board open, but this program, like you taking this program alone, it's not going to fix the, how your board is operating. And that's just something, I think, as a business owner, as a course creator that I've had to like come to terms with, and then provide as many safe spaces I can within our community for people to come back to and feel perhaps less alone when those things happen. Because, you know, I've experienced plenty of those things myself to, you know, being gaslit by boards of directors are way underpaid.
Speaker 2 00:41:05 And then they hired a man to replace me and paid him double, you know, and then he ended up costing the organization and, oh God, the stories I could tell you. But the thing is is that I think what I didn't have at any of those moments, in addition to like structural support was a community to come back to and to feel seen and heard and supported. And it's not everything. Like, I also don't think I have the solution to everything. You know, I think I was mentioning to you guys before we hit record, like I think a big part of my work and a big part of my like daily restraint on myself is to stay focused on what I believe I'm uniquely positioned to help this sector with and to acknowledge that it's not everything and that it's not all the pieces of this puzzle, but it's a really important piece that I believe to be wholly unaddressed. Um, and I just really like laser focus on it because I think if I'm going to make an impact in this sector, it's going to be, because I didn't spread myself thin across all the pieces of this puzzle.
Speaker 1 00:42:14 I am so glad that you brought up the isolation factor, uh, the isolation inside of organizations, because, um, I, I recently converted my thinking on that and it's going to sound like it's gonna, it's not going to sound like I'm with you for a minute. So I am, and I just want to say that up front. So here's, here's, here's what happened for me is that in the technology space, and I'm sure it's similar in the fundraising space, you, if someone really advances, they, you know, they, there's a pretty high probability that they're going to jet to a different organization after that, or they're going to jet to a different career through that, and they're going to leapfrog into a different type of role. And, um, and we've seen this, you know, since I started, I mean, that's how that's what happened to me. Cause I've been Tracy all of my fast, everybody else in tech, like in the nonprofit space, we talk about this accidental admin.
Speaker 1 00:43:16 And I think that there are two pieces of that. One is it is tragic that it's accidental as an economist. It makes me angry that this is accidental. What that means is that we didn't intend for it. We didn't, we didn't intend to create fundraisers. We didn't tend to create, you know, uh, technologists here, they accidentally showed up ad does not happen in the for-profit world because there's capital investment in capacity. So like that's an indictment. And I think as heroic for people that have taken that on and done it, but at an ecosystem level, that's an indictment and we should see it as that second thing though, is that, um, when we put together and, and there's some, there's a lot of similarities between the work that we've done in terms of our human stack work and the work that you've done. Um, the, one of the differences is that we create a team to work with and we create teams inside the organization.
Speaker 1 00:44:14 And we have a team on our side that works with the, with those teams. And in the last few months I realized that we're, we are decreasing the probability that individuals that work with us on the client side will leave group, because what happens in the tech space is that the isolation, the early excited about what you're learning in the technology, and you get excited about what you're accomplishing. And there's nobody in that organization to share that with probably your spouse doesn't even share it because it sounds like mumbo-jumbo, and it's crazy. So you functionally are repurposing who your community is from the organization that you've been working with to the consulting organization, that you are excited that sees your value, that looks on it and is really funded. We're functionally replacing the belonging key for people. And belonging is like our big driver. We are herd animals.
Speaker 1 00:45:12 We need a herd around us. And so when, when we're creating, when, when our system is creating that team to work with those teams, what we're doing is actually decreasing the isolation and we're preventing that need to leave. Um, and, uh, I'm excited about that. I feel like we we've talked about that. I heard, um, you know, pond just did a great webinar on, on this this week. Um, but this is a fresh tape, but I think it's really important and worth considering this, you know, what happens if we don't, if we create belonging for those individuals in that organization, that's easier to do when you're doing group teaching or training or have a program, which is what I, I would say. I think you're right to stay focused on what you're doing and we've set up different programs that way. And I don't, I mean, unless you started to like structure that in which I think would be really difficult. I think that that is just a natural outcome. And I think that that is actually good for people's careers and that unless organizations pay a lot of attention to belonging, like that's probably what's going to happen. And that's just like, that's part of what happens if you have accidental, you know, roles that are key roles in your organization. So,
Speaker 2 00:46:31 Okay. I have to, I have to comment on something you're saying, because I think you just hit on something that I haven't fully kind of processed before and is one of the ways in which fundraising and tech is similar and different, but I think there's actually a reason why the technologist and the fundraiser feels isolated in addition to the accidental component. I think it's also that there is a stigma around both positions. The stigma around the technologist is that people don't understand the technology. It's too complicated. It's too hard. They're isolated because people can't get into the muck with them around it. The fundraiser is isolated because of the stigma around money, right? Fundraisers are hearing every single day, oh, I could never be a fundraiser. I could never ask for money. Right. I get on a call. I got on a call a few months ago with a marketing team and a fundraising team for an organization.
Speaker 2 00:47:20 And some of the first things out of the, out of the marketing team's mouth was something like, well, we're not going to be doing the fundraising, right? Like there was just like, and it was just like palpable. And I said, you know what? You're not, but I just want to make something really clear about this space in this space. Fundraising is not bad. Here's some of the beliefs that we hold about fundraising here. Here's what we, this is like, let me just do a little like kind of culture set here. And that we're making sure that we're monitoring each other's language around how we talk about the movement of money, because those things, they create the culture of your organization. And so the fundraiser is often isolated because nobody else at the organization wants to talk about money. The tech person is isolated because nobody else at the organization wants to talk about tech. So I think we are in really unique positions to that calls us to create community for folks.
Speaker 1 00:48:12 A lot of it. Yeah. I just, it like stigma on a big, like, that's exactly right. It's exactly right. And, and they turn, they turn technologists into wizards. The men are like, you know, like you, people are magic and that doesn't help us. Like, no, actually this is a lot of Googling. That's what's going on here is we don't give up and we'd Google a lot. And then yes, we traded the marriage. That is what happens, but I think it's so that's, I'm really excited about that. Miami shut up. That was great. Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:48:44 No, I think that is, you know, the whole point here. And the whole point is that you have these communities of people who, and by the way, the knowledge is somewhat rarefied that each of these communities hold, um, I wrote down stigma as well, but it looks like stigmata, but I think it just feels like stigma. Um,
Speaker 1 00:49:09 But of course she did, you
Speaker 0 00:49:11 Know, of course I come on, I had to go there.
Speaker 0 00:49:16 You know, I think, you know, what I would say is that it's seems to me Mallory, and maybe this is a great place to sort of get your forward-looking ideas before we wrap. But it seems to me like, okay, if you had come in and said everything that you had just said to Tracy, the nonprofit technologist in that auto, when I went in 2005, right. I, somewhere in the back of my mind, I would have been like, ah, she's a hundred percent. Right. And I would have just laughed because I was going to say, nothing is going to change this. Nothing is going to change this context I am seeing. And, and, and this is where I want to give you the opportunity to say, if this is true or not. And also what else you're seeing for folks looking forward. There is a lot more willingness now, 15 years, 20 years later, to talk about issues of culture, of isolation, of inclusion and how the summary of our individual actions contribute and detract from those. I'm wondering if you're seeing the same, because I feel like this is a positive thing to end on and also for the industry.
Speaker 2 00:50:51 Yeah. So I'm seeing the same thing. And I also just want to say to your previous question that I'm not sure I completely answered around advancement. I mean, I think my goal would be that, you know, fundraisers have, I think there's a lot that could be worked on in the way we support fundraisers and their growth inside organizations that doesn't always have to be around how we view promotion in the past necessarily. Right. If you have found your sweet spot in fundraising, how can your organization support you? You know, in terms of pay responsibility, growth, autonomy to your maximum, that doesn't have to mean you switch into a different role where all of a sudden you start managing people. I know this is not unique to fundraising and the challenges this provides, but I want us to rethink the whole way we think about advancement and in terms of the development departments in general.
Speaker 2 00:51:41 So, you know, but my hope is that yes, like as people become more confident, more aligned, more embodied and emboldened in what they know to be the way they want to show up as a fundraiser, the more clarity they're going to have around where they should be and why. And that, that clarity just like with my demotion doesn't necessarily mean the top, because the top of whose mountain, the top of whose hill and that clarity involves defining what the, what, what's your top, what's your goal. What's going to be right for you. And I think like you, I'm seeing this, um, this shift in, in awareness around the topics that both individuals and organizations are willing to talk about and create space for. I mean, I think the great resignation is creating some of that pressure, you know, and, and, you know, it's not unique to what's happening in the nonprofit sector.
Speaker 2 00:52:32 I think the, the boom in the black lives matter movement in 2020 has created some additional pressure. I think, you know, there's a number of different things, um, that I feel like have brought conversations to, um, to, to a table. Maybe I'll say it that way. And I think, you know, our job is to keep that the conversation at the table to make sure we have all the right people at the table, that we keep creating space at the table and that we recognize that this is going to be a process. But I think as a part of all of this, you know, you said this earlier, Tracy, that the pandemic in many ways has awoken. I mean, frankly like middle to upper class white folks to tensions that have existed in society for a very long time. You know, I became a mom right before the pandemic, and I was just reading something the other day about this, around how you, the, the breaking point I've felt over the last two years is a breaking point.
Speaker 2 00:53:32 Most people in fact have felt forever. And it was this moment for me of like, okay, I'm not going to like go into like shame and feeling bad for myself right now. But like, what does this mean for like how I'm going to show up and what does this mean for how I'm going to show up? Once my life gets easier because my kid gets vaccinated or whatever. And so I think there is this, okay, we're building empathy, hopefully in this moment. And now how do we convert this to creating more just and equitable spaces and societies and structures. And I really do think the more awareness we have around our own drivers and alignment, the better, the more, um, responsibly and pathetically, um, equitably, we're going to show up for our communities.
Speaker 1 00:54:23 I think that's a wrap.
Speaker 0 00:54:25 Thank you so very much.
Speaker 1 00:54:29 Thank you so much for coming and speaking so openly and personally, um, and for, and for being willing to let people really know who you are. Um, I think that that's, that's important, um, for those listeners, uh, I would highly recommend going and taking Valerie Erickson's masterclass. You can find it on her website and we will put that on in the show notes. I listened to it. I was blown away. I, I am not a fundraiser. I will never be a fundraiser. And I was inspired.
Speaker 2 00:55:01 That's got to be a fundraiser because ,
Speaker 1 00:55:07 I could see this. And, um, so I would just say like, there it is, it is really powerful. And, um, and you're saying something new there and I've been around fundraising up to know that Mallory thinks something new, uh, the community there is really incredible. So, um, really encourage you to take that out. Um, yeah. And thanks for joining us.
Speaker 0 00:55:26 Yeah. Thank you so much. We have been very privileged to have an incredible array of guests on why it matters. And I will say Mallory, I leave every conversation with one of our guests, very uplifted, but very few actually make me also feel better about humanity. And I want to say, thank you, this, this conversation has helped me feel better about humanity. So I thank you for all your great work and, and to our listeners, please check out Mallory's stuff because it is incredibly on point for where I believe we need to go next.
Speaker 1 00:56:07 I'm tin lucky. I am
Speaker 0 00:56:08 Tracy. Crohn's Zach, and you've been listening to why it matters.
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