Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:05 Hey, everybody, it's us again, recording another episode of what we, I think are calling our burgeoning, why it matters series a, we're definitely putting this
Speaker 1 00:00:16 Why it matters. When did that start
Speaker 0 00:00:18 In every single title card that I've put on these things from the start
Speaker 1 00:00:23 Reading the title cards, you just named it, why it matters actually I'm frustrated because it works really pushed back on it. So I think that might stick, there we go. Say that was a non-collaborative when you say we, that does not include, I'm just going to put that out there. So everybody knows that in the spirit
Speaker 0 00:00:43 Of putting the plane together as we fly it, uh, I've also now got branding. So this is going to emerge where, you know, and it's just great to be here today. So Tim, I'm gonna turn it over to you to introduce our blogging guests today for why it matters.
Speaker 1 00:01:01 Thank you. And I actually do really like that name as much as that. Nice me on the process. Um, I am so excited to interview someone that I've known for a year. Uh, Kate Daniels and I met, uh, at net hope last year in Puerto Rico. And, um, honestly felt like I'd found my long lost twin sister. We've stayed in touch over the last year. Um, every conversation is, uh, just ignites a lot of curiosity and there's a lot of passion in the work that we are doing. Um, and so is, it is a great honor to introduce, uh, my twin sister, not really, but, uh, my twin sister, Kate, Danielle, welcome to the show. Wow.
Speaker 2 00:01:45 Look at that pomp and circumstance. What a way to enter a room. I love it. Yeah. Nice to be here. What an exciting thing to do on a Friday. It's a, it's, you know, um, a very interesting time, uh, for all of us and I think what a great time to rally around and talk about it and, and the nonprofit community and what we're all doing. So I come at this, uh, perhaps somewhat uniquely having spent the last 15 years, almost equally divided between international development work in the context of international NGOs and then, um, international corporate social responsibility, uh, and, and philanthropy work. So I started my career, uh, in South Africa in 2005 in a rural township, managing a program for orphans and vulnerable children with a Dutch south African nonprofit. Um, as one does to the township yeah.
Speaker 0 00:02:41 Lost between 20 and 25, you know, kind of in my own world. And then it sounds like you actually did something useful in that era. So like yeah.
Speaker 2 00:02:51 Had I not flung myself over to Sub-Saharan Africa, I surely would have been in a gutter somewhere. So it's, it's good. I put myself to good
Speaker 0 00:02:58 20 to 25 right there.
Speaker 2 00:03:02 Yeah. So, you know, and it was great. It was a great way to start my career, right. You're learning, uh, Afrikaans by Knights and learning Zulu Northern stew by day. Um, it was a beautiful way to kind of find my feet as a professional. Uh, and it also put me in the, in front of the world of donors, right. It was, you know, the Royal Netherlands, embassy and UNICEF and all of these, um, very interesting. The Nelson Mandela children's fund was involved. So that was a great way to start off. Um, and, uh, so did that for three years then went to habitat for humanity international and worked in the Africa and middle east area office for the next few years. And that really put me in the world of bilaterals. So it was USA ID grants, and Difid and Irish aid and SITA, both SITA, Canada, and see to Sweden.
Speaker 2 00:03:46 And, uh, and really, you know, in, in that kind of larger sense of international NGO work, how we collaborate with other international NGOs. Um, and it was very much from a program management and eMoney standpoint. And, you know, in 2009, I read Dombey some Moyers book, dead aid, and I started to feel very disillusioned with the aid sector. Right. I started to think, what is this that I'm part of and is this, is this achieving the aims for which it's, uh, put in place? And I started to feel that it wasn't. Um, so I shifted wholeheartedly in early 2010 to a for-profit forestry company, headquartered in Johannesburg with plantations and Uganda, Rwanda, Tanzania, and Mozambique. Um, and that put me in front of, uh, international investors. So it was impact investors, private equity, private debt. It was translating how we get business done on the ground in a rural east African context to, you know, the ears of central London, dwelling bankers, you know, masters of the universe.
Speaker 2 00:04:47 And that was an interesting thing to do. Um, so did that for the next five years, then went to business school and to Harrisburg, and then, uh, like many business school grads became a consultant, but my consulting was in the area of impact, investment and environmental, social governance or ESG. And then, you know, at 37, I thought if I don't move back to the states soon, I never will. And so I was pulled back a few years ago, and then since I came back, I've been working with Oracle NetSuite and almost exclusively on the social impact team, thinking about, um, how our technology feeds into the needs of international NGOs and other types of non-profits domestically. Um, and then leading our relationships with others in the community community. So that includes net hope and human totem and tech soup and groups like that. It turns out
Speaker 1 00:05:37 I have a bland, bland CV that you've got. It sounds like you're looking to do some stuff in the future cause you haven't really launched yet. Um,
Speaker 2 00:05:48 I mean, this is like,
Speaker 1 00:05:50 We're talking about one lifetime, right? Like you're not like talking about three reincarnations or something. Like, that's just an incredible amount variety.
Speaker 2 00:05:59 You don't have a plan when you literally just go with your gut, but that's my advice to young people. I talked to 20 somethings all the time who like, Ooh, how did you do this or that? And it's like, oh, go do the next thing. That sounds most interesting.
Speaker 0 00:06:10 Yeah. And it turns out by the way, I've met a lot of people through the years on the Oracle net suite. Well, formerly net suite now, you know, Oracle net suite impact team. So, uh, David Guy and I go all the way back to, you know, non-profit tech conference, 2008 kind of era, uh, Steve, Hey, uh, same kind of area Tricia Fitzgerald. And I worked together for, you know, about a year and a half, uh, two years at, uh, Heller consulting. So somehow I knew and met all of these people, but I never actually met you in the context of there. So that's kind of fun. It's like closing the loop.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 Yeah. And David <inaudible>, who's still a dear friend he's since moved on and is now leading another nonprofit, but he's a, he was really the one who I kind of, uh, I studied under and whose tutelage I benefited from when I first came into the tech for social impact world. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:07:12 Um, thanks for that background. Um, I feel like there is like a buffet of topics to pick from next here. Um, and, and so just to start into one, has your, has your view of that international aid shifted since 2009? Um, you know, has that morphed into a, a different view or where, what, how, how do you feel about that nowadays?
Speaker 2 00:07:41 You know, I think consciousness becomes kind of a pendulum, uh, for some of us and it's about certain subjects. And I certainly think that I needed to start my career getting really deep into developing it, really believing in it wholeheartedly and believing in all of the language, in the context of, of international aid. And then I needed to be broken of that. I needed, I needed to be shaken free of it and, and, and sort of distanced myself. It's like we only build our identity by that, which we are not. So, so there's some, there was something important about distancing myself from that world of aid and, and being very much in the for-profit sector for several years, for eight years, and then coming kind of back to it and in a, in a very different context, you know, today I approach the world of international development from the context of, of it and the context of digital transformation and how, um, technology can reorient not only the efficacy of aid work, but the coordination of aid work.
Speaker 2 00:08:40 And that means coordination between aid, uh, actors or international NGOs, but also coordination between the public and private sector. So my view is now less, that aid is a big problem and it's, it's ruining the world and it's undermining the countries, um, to which it's sent. And my view is more now, a little bit more nuanced that, you know, an aid model is as good as, uh, the coordination between its actors and it's as good as the quality and, and the veracity of thought and the interrogation of the model, um, of all of those were contributing to it. You know, there's, there's good models and there's bad models. There's, there's really good examples of international development work. And there are, you know, shockingly, you know, ridiculous wastes of time and resources. And I think we all want to be part of a model that works. So that's really my focus. And I was like, how can I from the private sector side, bring what I know and what I think, and the partners I work with into a space where we solve problems together in a way that's efficient and effective and, and, and I'm responsible and, and remain in insurance, we remain good stewards of resources. Yeah. What I
Speaker 0 00:09:50 Personally know about like the international aid ecosystem, I think could really fill a thimble. I, I, I've always viewed it personally through the lens of like one of the biggest challenges has been infrastructure. Uh, and I actually connect it to believe it or not an episode of west wing where like, it's the very end of the show and CJ Craig is leaving and she has this offer to do something with millions and millions and millions of dollars. And she's like, we need to freaking build roads. Um, and, and I'm gonna connect that to something that I have many more thimble fulls of knowledge. And that is technology as an infrastructure for nonprofits. Um, because, you know, an older version of me was a version that would get up in front of like a bunch of funders and, uh, at nonprofit tech conferences. And literally just be like, if you're not funding technology as an infrastructure and not thinking of it that way, like you are irresponsible, you are irresponsible, and it is as important as HR and finance and legal and everything else.
Speaker 0 00:10:56 But like now the 2020 version of myself says, this is a challenge that can only be solved, not only by putting the right people in the right rooms, but the right actors in the right rooms. And that, to me, connects to how I first experienced you. And that was this year's net hope, the digital net hope that did not involve boats and sailing and fruity drinks and sunshine, um, but was very sunshiny. Uh, and something that you said at net hope really resonated with me. And that was looking at as a large platform company, looking at technology from the perspective of how a nonprofit looks into that, not from the perspective of how the company looks outward, but how a nonprofit looks into that world. And, um, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit more about that in terms of like strategies that you are working on, that others are working on that have enabled a shift in that lens from, I am a company that's just happening to sell my stuff or to nonprofits too. I'm a company looking at what I'm doing from the lens of nonprofits looking inward at me.
Speaker 2 00:12:20 Um, I think that if you had asked us a year ago, uh, whether we would be participating in the common data model for nonprofits, the answer would have been no of the light and dignified bow out of that particular conversation. And that's largely, oh, yes, here we have in front of us
Speaker 0 00:12:39 For a high-tech prop vehicle to make Tim that laugh.
Speaker 2 00:12:47 Yeah. I think so much of, um, the problem with technology companies is that we fall in love with our product. And we think that our product is it right? If, if a nonprofit buys what we've, we're selling, things are going to become easier. Things are going to become streamlined. Just trust us, just go with it. She could just come, come along with us. And the reality is that nonprofits are in particularly the international NGO sector are quite savvy and are quite, I would argue, are held to a much higher standard than your average for-profit company, right? There's there's not just this focus on the P and L you have to focus as a, as a leader of an international NGO on multiple donors. You need reporting in multiple different ways. You have to focus on, um, your communities and how they receive and filter information.
Speaker 2 00:13:36 You have to focus on the multiple countries in which you're working compliance with country culture and country business, uh, regulations. You have to, um, report to, you know, uh, sort of multidisciplinary, uh, universe of stakeholders. And that is not that those kinds of challenges are not solved by one product. And, and frankly, none of us in the tech sector, and I will say, none of us do everything it's just not possible, right? It's just not, it's not also how a business works. When you run a business, you, you focus on something, you specialize in something at NetSuite. We specialize in nonprofit financials and ERP, right? If you're a manufacturing company or a wholesale distribution company, you do want to have NetSuite because it's a really strong ERP system. If you're, you're struggling with your financial reporting, or if you want to operate in a multi-lingual multi-currency multi tax jurisdiction environment, then our financial management software is going to be the way, but, you know, in this last year, what we had to reckon with and take time to recognize is that it doesn't do everything.
Speaker 2 00:14:42 We are not a monitoring and evaluation tool. We are not an impact measurement tool. And the sooner you as a company can sit in the truth of that and what you do really well, as well as your gaps and what you just don't do at all. The sooner you can, you can start to perform the right room or the right team around you. We are only as good as, you know, the people that were shoulder to shoulder with, and the, and in this, in this context, the products with which we are shoulder to shoulder. So when we started thinking a little bit more about how do we link the information you can derive from NetSuite to the information you need in a monitoring evaluation system, we had to think more in terms of integrations and in connectivity of data. And what happened roughly midway through the last year was that both Microsoft and Oracle NetSuite were approached by a couple of common customers who said we would like to be mapped to the common data model.
Speaker 2 00:15:40 And that truly was the, the kind of origin point. That was, that was the moment that had us start to think. Well, you know, if we want to delight our customers, which is one of our stretch strategic priorities as a company, once we've sold NetSuite, it's not done. We now need to delight customers. If we truly want to honor that promise, then we need to think about how our product interacts with other products. I mean, need to think about if, if our customers are asking for this, they're not going to be the only ones and it's not going to end there. So it will behoove us to ensure we get in line. And, and th that we structure data integration and coordination in a way that can be replicated for other customers in the future. So it was the salvation army who came to us and asked this question, and that's what really got us talking.
Speaker 2 00:16:26 And then, and then it's like all other parts of life you get on the phone with other like-minded people and like oriented professionals from another company. And you think, okay, we've got something here. We're all approaching this from the same vantage point. We all want to solve a problem. And that's when it goes from thinking about how great net suite is to thinking about how NetSuite can be part of a solution, not the solution, but part of one. And I think that, that, you know, I hope I'm getting to the, uh, to, to the point of your question, which is, that was really where our head started to shift around and stop focusing on our data model and start focusing on what's the data model that most of our prospects and customers want to use. And how do we fit in with that? That makes sense.
Speaker 0 00:17:12 I have one follow up one up on that, and that is, you know, I actually have two, but I'm gonna save my second followup for later on. Uh, the first one though, is at any point during all of those discussions, and I will totally respect that. If you say, no, I can't answer this. Did somebody stand up inside and say, wait a sec, where, where, where NetSuite, where ERP, we're going to try to connect to this common data model and map all of our stuff over to it. Are we worried that once we go there, our customers are now using a platform and they might like, see, I dunno, Microsoft FNO and be like, why bother with this NetSuite stuff when we can just have it all on the Microsoft tech stack? Did anybody bring that up or do you view this as an opportunity to better articulate? And I'm going to lead the witness here, uh, you know, better articulate your value prop as a product,
Speaker 2 00:18:14 Both. And so, yes, the answer is yes, people from inside said, whoa, stop this train. What are we doing? Or why, what are we even talking about? We compete with Microsoft on many deals. We know when we're in the, the, in a competitive deal who the other competitors are. And it's often the case that Microsoft is in the mix. So what are we thinking about aligning ourselves with them, especially because they have a broader infrastructure, right? They've got a lot of other types of tools they bring to bear. They're a bigger company. Um, the NetSuite as a, as a product. And I think, you know, that resistance is also just responsible. I would be shocked if an executive, uh, in particular sales executives in a, in a for-profit technology company, didn't raise the red flag and say, what are we doing? And at the end of the day, to be honest, Tracy, it was companies are driven by commercial interests.
Speaker 2 00:19:08 For sure. Let's, let's not dilute ourselves, but I think the beauty of this is that when you think in terms of kind of enlightened self-interest by solving the problem as part of a broader solution, and by being part of, uh, a more collaborative effort, we actually position ourselves to be stronger commercially we position ourselves to be selected because we're part of a team of technology companies that that's thinking about problem solving, instead of thinking about how do we entice you with our product. So in the end, yes, commercial interests did when, as they always will in the context of a for-profit technology company. But I think it took a little bit of re reorienting the question, right? Yeah. It's, it's a risk to align ourselves with a customer with a competitor, but is the risk greater to not do it, or is the risk greater to do it? And, and in the end we decided it was riskier and more, um, uh, it would more undermine our ultimate interest to be part of this community, to not engage with the common data model. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:20:09 Um, we've been having a lot of conversation, um, on, on this show and, and with partners with customers about there is a shift in the environment of technology that didn't exist before where, and I don't know when it happened, but at some in the past it was full stack option. Like reporting is really challenging if you aren't, you know, and so it was an aura platform world, you know, you're either, you know, Blackbaud or Salesforce or next week. And there is just a big, or in a lot of our job as an SAP was to figure out which one to go with. And over the last year and the language, it at net hope was interoperability last year. And this year, the language for it was CDM just completely rewritten into CDM and the language for it. Now, I think as an and world, like I'm calling, I'm probably an times just cause like hearkening back to my, my religious roots there. But, um, the, I think that it's not, it's not just a shift in perspective. There's actually a shift in what technology technology can do now that did not exist before. Um, and some of that is I think, uh, a spirit of collaboration, no, no disagreement there, but I just think the tools for a CDM exist in a way that we're now ready for and we weren't before. Um, and so I'm, I'm mostly saying that as a statement, I'm curious if you agree or not.
Speaker 2 00:21:45 Yeah. I think nothing is accidental in terms of the evolution of our consciousness around the, all of this, right. We, it's kind of like I needed to break from aid in order to come back to eight, we kind of need to burrow in and create our respective little camps and really establish our identities and figure out who we are as companies or as products in order to then get to that next stage of evolution, which is coming together and operating in a way that's more collaborative. And so I agree with you. I think it is more today an and conversation, which by the way, I love your blog post. I strongly recommend it to anybody to, to read that it's, you know, the Andy times, uh, which I thought was very clever, but also the, the timing is not accidental. We couldn't have had this conversation a year, three years, five years ago because there wasn't just, there wasn't enough, uh, awareness on the part of each of these products that are now getting together in the common data model.
Speaker 2 00:22:41 There, there wasn't enough consciousness of who we are and what we're great at and what, where we lack. We were too busy establishing our identities, too busy, telling you how great we are and figuring out where we really knock it out of the park and where we still have much to learn. It's only now in this time that we can kind of humble ourselves and own our shortcomings and own the places where we need the partnership with another technology company. And, you know, I think all of this, again, timing is no accident. It's not accidental that we find ourselves in this moment while also in the context of a global pandemic. And while also as a country reckoning with our very tainted past around race relations. It's not an accident that in this moment, there is this need to consciously and intentionally step forward toward our competitors and toward others in the community with whom we can create something bigger and better. And I'll tell you, when I, when I got the mail from Microsoft about the salvation army making this request, it was what was it? April, March, April. And I'll you? I was feeling lonely. I was at home working. We're all working from home and I work from home anyway, but certainly we weren't traveling anymore. We weren't seeing, I remember that, right. Hey sure. Eric Arnold, you want to do something together? Yes. And there was that timing cannot be, um, extracted from the sentiment that we responded with. The timing meant something, Kate
Speaker 0 00:24:10 You're, you're saying something that deeply resonates with me. I will be totally forthright and say sometimes accidentally, but frequently strategically, just because of who we are, Tim and I managed to pull off sort of a good cop, bad cop routine in the sort of greater world, uh, you know, in, in the socials and on the Twitters with the Facebooks and whatever new blah blah is going on. And, you know, one of the things that I've always felt as true it's that we invest a great deal of our own sense of self-awareness and identity and ego in our work. And therefore work in a lot of ways becomes a replacement for these greater spiritual values. And if you look at how that sort of becomes over time, what it means is that when, when we're looking introspectively at ourselves, that introspection is you've just described really can drive a very sort of egocentric and a very sort of unaware perspective of our own actions.
Speaker 0 00:25:16 And what I love about what you just said is it kind of validates my personal hypothesis, that there needs to be some sense of self-awareness and sense of setting aside ego and that desire to save everything in our world, which by the way, connects directly to one of the problems in our society. And that is that like white savior complex, you know, particularly in response to the kinds of moments that we've had this year, uh, and not being a white savior means exactly setting aside ego and being self-aware enough to say, like, I might have thoughts and opinions, but I don't have solutions.
Speaker 2 00:25:59 Oh, wow. Yeah. It's the difference between, um, asserting that I have my privilege privilege because I've earned it and it's mine and I'm going to shake it. Versus I get that. I have all sorts of unearned privilege that I did nothing to accumulate, nothing to build. And I get that I'm in a world where for whatever reason that privilege is, is elevated or, or rewarded. So I'm going to, I'm going to be intentional about how I use it. I'm going to be intentional about making it, serve the vision of the world. I want to live in
Speaker 1 00:26:31 That same privilege as an asset, instead of something to, uh, you know, like an asset is something that you own until we own our privilege is not an asset. Right. So, um, I think that, I completely agree with that if you had, when you got that email, if you had said thanks, but no thanks. Um, how would that world look different from the world that you're in today?
Speaker 2 00:26:57 Yeah. Yeah. The, uh, the pitfalls of the foregone option. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:27:07 Kate is how much work was it actually like the actual, like being part of the CVM is two things. It is a leadership strategy decision, and then it is a, is a series of technical, you know, uh, decisions as well. I'm curious, you know, one, you've talked about the hurdle on one side, I'm also curious about what the, what the other hurdle was and you know, where you'd be, if you hadn't taken either of those. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 00:27:38 Great question. And it's very spot on as far as how our, how we've experienced the last half a year. And I'll, I'll, I'll answer that from, from this perspective, when you pivot in halfway through a fiscal year, for example, or, you know, just in the, in the midst of things, um, you don't have people who are allocated to do that new thing you haven't created. That's right.
Speaker 0 00:28:00 There's no, there's no resourcing. You have to add it to the rolling list of requests for resources and pray to the gods and you get it. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 00:28:09 Yeah. Yeah. A lot of people, a lot of favors, I'll tell you that right now, because what this meant for us was, okay, we're going to do this. We're going to match the common data model. First of all, I didn't even know what that word meant mapping to a Mo like, I imagine that's a technological process in which our data marries with other data, but I'm a, you know, I'm an externally facing partnerships person. I'm not a solutions consultant. So that meant I had to turn around into my organization and say, who has the skillset to do this? Who has the orientation towards social impact and the nonprofit vertical such that they get it. And they understand the value of this mapping and also who will be kind and gracious enough to give of their time, which is already packed with other things in their day job to add on this, this deliverable and this piece.
Speaker 2 00:28:57 And, you know, I will say, I, I mean, when I, when I say, oh, a lot of people favors, I mean, you know, there are apple pies in route to, um, a couple of my colleagues who have given of their time and, and who are going to do the technical pieces of the mapping of NetSuite to the common data model. And, um, yeah, this is maybe a flubbed way of answering that question, but I think it's a, it's an important question because when you change course, which is so important, right? We have to be able to change course invidious rates. We have, we have to be able to say, stop what we're doing. This is a lost cause, or this is not the right direction. Let's move direction to, you know, in a 90 degree about face or, you know, in a shift. But at that point, there's no one allocated to do the work.
Speaker 2 00:29:43 There's no one whose job it is to do this new thing we've decided to do so. Um, yeah, so I would say, you know, in short it was a process of going internally at NetSuite, finding out who has the skills, the knowledge, the know how the background and the inclination to help out with this project and then using their time as efficiently as possible. And then my role is, you know, just to kind of keep pushing us along and getting us all on calls and keep the conversation going. Um, but, uh, it tends to be a thing it's like the Google, you know, whatever 20% of your time is spent on this other thing, this is another thing. And my hope is that, you know, at the end of it, when, when we're mapped and we've got a solution to provide and something to talk about that, then I'll be able to advocate to have more resources, um, directed for the, this work.
Speaker 1 00:30:33 Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:30:35 I just want to say on my, a measurable compassion, uh, some of my time at Salesforce, I was doing highly technical cross-functional unresourced work. And like, I know what that looks like and how that feels, and you're always on the phone and it feels like you're always horsetrading and it feels like, come on, man, if you can just give me five minutes, five minutes, you know, like, so wow, unbelievable that you got that done and congrats. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:31:04 Yeah. It's helpful. You need to hear that because I've never worked for a large organization, like monolithic, you know, grant like you all have. Um, and so for me, pivots are a decision away, right. Um, you know, and they tend to be, should we do it? Is there cash, right? I like that is just so much, uh, it's microscopic in, in, in, in the difference on how my company changes it,
Speaker 3 00:31:33 I'm laughing told me, I
Speaker 0 00:31:36 Will tell Kate and his sec, when you're done, I have to share this with her.
Speaker 1 00:31:41 Well, helpful to see that you can't like a mid-year pivot actually isn't resourced. But I also want to say what that means is that you still got it done with, with spare resources that people opted into, which means that the level of lift was doable on a pivot. Um, and so, uh, you know, and I think that that's an important point, because my guess is that of the two, the technical and permission, the technical is easier than the permission side. Um, and, uh, I'm, I'm curious if that's right or not, or were they both just like uphill battles in both really challenging? Um, what's the, what was the ratio on that?
Speaker 2 00:32:27 Uh, first sentence that comes to mind is know your audience. So when I'm talking to, uh, sales leaders about a decision like this, the talk track is one of, uh, financial, uh, upside. And the w the talk track is the ways that doing this thing will make us more competitive and will feed our commercial interests. And then when I go to the technical people, let's be honest. Most folks are doing their jobs in relative isolation, right? They're sitting in front of their computers and they're doing something very similar every day. So what's to stop us from making this something really cool and interesting and fun and different. Why not speak to nerds, a cool thing. Like, Hey, I get you to do this day job. And I get that. You have to invest your time and energy there, but Hey, you want to help me do this kind of covert, you know, backdoor thing. That's going to really solve problems, supporting organizations in the world, your audience,
Speaker 1 00:33:30 That's great.
Speaker 0 00:33:32 It looks like hacking, oh God, beautiful. Um, I, what was cracking me up earlier, by the way, is I've frequently described working inside the large corporate platform world as being in an Olympic sized pool and having a swim lane that's about two feet wide, which is just about a foot narrower than you really want to comfortably have, but like going back to, you know, a business the size of now, it matters right now. Uh, it's been kind of the reverse where it's like, here's your Olympic pool. There are no lane guards, but if you want to get something done, uh, man, man, you hit
Speaker 1 00:34:14 Pick a direction and start swimming. And I'm like, where's my people
Speaker 0 00:34:17 For that. I know people for that. And it's just, it's great. It's opposite sides of a coin. And both experiences are really great. And I feel like all of us should have them both at some point for, for all the reasons that you just started. <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:34:34 Oh my gosh. You're reminding them. Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead. I wanted to just say one thing about that when you just said that about the swim lane, I just, you know, I kind of was nodding in furious agreement because there is something so important about the difference between working for a big well-resourced well-organized anything. And I mean that about a big international NGO or a big tech company, right. And habitat, everybody had their job. It was all very clear at Oracle net suite. It's very much, you are kind of, microtized almost into your lane into what you do. Whereas, you know, when I've worked at startups in the past, it's all hands on deck, you're doing everything from welcoming the investors to making tea and you, you just better get on with it and find out where, where sometimes some effort is needed and put your effort there. So I think for those of us who respond to that kind of, um, you know, Jack of all trades all hands on deck environment, a big corporate can be quite stifling. I have been very lucky in that. I have always, for whatever reason, found myself in a job and NetSuite that nobody's ever had before, but the job social impact partnerships that didn't exist before David got established it really. And then Matt van cleave, who's now at Salesforce led that team forward. I know Matt as well.
Speaker 2 00:35:52 Great. Well, I'm hiding in the distance trying to get this common data model thing happening. You're motivating
Speaker 0 00:35:58 Nerds through like pseudo hacking projects,
Speaker 2 00:36:02 Very busily in my own little devices, but there's beautiful about having a position like that in a big company where I look around me and I know everybody else has a really strict, very prescribed way that their day is going to go. And for whatever reason, I've been lucky in that I hadn't had a job like that. I've had jobs where I have great bosses who say, go for it, do do it. There's this thing we want to achieve. It's out there in the distance. Now, figure out how we're going to get there. And that Bree allows you to use your creativity and your innovation and all of the things that you come armed with from your experience in life. But I do think the point you just made is really important that so often in a big corporate, it is so microtized and so prescribed and so linear and so exact what you have to do that sometimes you can get people to help you and get involved with what you're doing by like dangling something over in the freedom, the freedom
Speaker 1 00:37:03 I've got. Um, two other things I want to talk about before we hop off the call. Um, one of them is, um, I want to talk about the future of the data model from the lens of, of brands and, um, the way, the way I see it. And I'm curious if this was your experience and how you see it as well. The way I see it is that there are parts. There are places that we will see brands competing with each other for sales, and I'm an economist. I think that's fine. I'm for that. I've never faulted any brand for selling software to non-profits. I think that is actually fine and good. Don't have a problem with it. What doesn't exist is a neutral space that is non, that is non-competitive where we can also spend time talking about the state of the world and things that we are aligned on and are not competing on. And my main point on this is by having both competitive and a non-competitive space, we create a better future longterm. Like if you take those two models, one with a neutral space, one without, and you give them five years, the one with the neutral space will have created more impact than the one without it. Um, is that how you see it as well? Is that, uh, does that match your experience with the CDM?
Speaker 2 00:38:36 Yes. And I think both are needed. So I think, um, I agree with you, the neutral space is, is critical to allowing for dialogue and discussion and cocoa approaches to problems. But I love the tension. I think the tension between the room we enter, where we're competitors and the room we enter, where we're collaborators is so important because each of those things, even each of those states of being sharpened different tools in our toolbox, right? And we have to go and compete with, with another company, we bring out other tools, right? We become armed with other types of, uh, you know, um, flags res and, and nuance to bring and, um, points to bear. It there's a lot that happens in a competitive environment that makes us stronger, faster, better, but there's also other things that we develop when we stop, when we put those tools away.
Speaker 2 00:39:31 And we entered into a room with other competitors who have those tools in their boxes, and then we all sit down to solve the problem together. So I would say, absolutely, I agree that the neutral space is so important. Like what we do with the, um, working groups in the net hope community, right? So those are contexts in which we all come together, unit for Salesforce, Microsoft, Oracle NetSuite box, Octa, Splunk, Twilio. We all come together into a room and we look at a problem. We try to solve it, using whatever we can. Um, so those spaces are necessary, but I think they're, they're actually made better by the fact that we also spend some of our time competing and we spend some of our time sharpening those other tools. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:40:15 Can you say what you said about, uh, entering rooms? I just love it and want to get it on.
Speaker 2 00:40:22 Yeah. You said to me something really? Oh, yes. Here's how it happens. You said, um, it's great. You guys were able to, um, start talking to Microsoft and, and start thinking seriously about the Microsoft common data model for non-profits right. Which was the full name, the Microsoft common data model for nonprofits. And, um, were you worried about having your identity, uh, altered or subsumed or enveloped in that context? And my thinking on that and I mean, this, I mean, this is for as a company and I mean this as individuals, we change every room that we enter. We cannot help the change, every room that we enter, our energy and our force and our, our strength of will and character, as we bring it into a new room, absolutely changes the nature of just the discourse in that room. And it changes the energy field of that room.
Speaker 2 00:41:13 So in a lot of ways, I'm not worried about getting mapped to the common data model because yes, Microsoft threw the first pitch and yes, they ignited this model and I'm thankful and grateful. And I applaud them for that. But as we become mapped and as unit four becomes mapped and his other tech partners come on board, that model is no longer the Microsoft common data model. It's the common data model for nonprofits into which many different technology companies contribute. And an after which many organizations, many international NGOs will be able to benefit, and that's going to improve efficiency. It's going to facilitate efficacy. It's going to make things cheaper, faster, smarter, and allow leaders of nonprofits to do their work in a way that is more robust and allows them to be better stewards of donor funds. Um, so we're proud to change that room and we're proud to change, you know, the DNA of the common data model by virtue of our contribution and by virtue of being part of
Speaker 0 00:42:14 It. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Wow. The part of me that like makes my little heart go pitter patter is the part that says as a consultant who was born and bred in this world, like, I want to stop having discussions with nonprofits about how are we gonna migrate data? And I want to use that time and money instead to have discussions about how are we going to make you a better nonprofit, however your data looks. And this is the technical backbone for that in a way that, you know, we've all tried. And I was reminded, we, we started trying this all back in 2003. Uh, but this is now another attempt at that. And it is going to necessitate exactly what you just said, and that is, can we set aside who we think we are for the promise of who we can become when we work together?
Speaker 1 00:43:09 I, before you answer that, I want to also add into that same thing that, um, the Greeks had two words at the time Kronos and Kairos Kronos has just a moment are the gates of hell. I should have known. There's no way you could just leave it alone. Hi Ross. Hi, Ross is it means the opportune moment. It is a moment that is, is like, this is a unique moment because of the opportunity based on what Tracy's saying about this has been tried before, is this the Kairos moment where it's different? This, this has a different chance of working because it has been tried before. Um, why is this moment different? Is this moment different?
Speaker 2 00:43:56 Mm, yeah. I think everything about 2020 is different.
Speaker 0 00:44:04 According on Friday, November six. Yeah. The longest election in the universe, it has felt like, sorry. Yeah, sidebar. This will come out. This is coming out sometime in December. So it's just worse.
Speaker 2 00:44:19 Yeah. And we'll still all be locked in doors. I'm sure at that point, because, you know, I hate to get cynical, but yeah, there's no signs that this is a bathing or, or that we're getting our hands around it. Um, yeah, the time matters. The timing is matter, doesn't matter. And I, you know, that earlier point Tracy made about, you know, is it worth, I really like that idea. Is it worth giving up a part of who you are now for who you can become? Is it, is it worth sacrificing a little bit of our ego in the short term in order to manifest a greater version of ourselves in the longterm and you know, so much of what we say in this conversation, and maybe it's just the depth of my, uh, my colleagues here, but there's so much that we say that has absolute parallels between who we are and how we show up in the world and the companies that we represent.
Speaker 2 00:45:05 And I think the same is true of both. I think, you know, we all have to take a leap once in a while and decide to, to put aside our ego or put aside the chance to be celebrated in the now in order to be, um, instrumental in the future in order to be a part of something bigger and much more interesting. And I think we're coming to terms with that. And I don't think that that's can any way be divorced from this moment in time getting to your point then, like why now? Well, I think that, you know, as individuals and as companies, this has been a really hard year. There are multiple, um, countless companies that have gone under, right. We all know, uh, mom and pop shops and private, uh, institutions who've gone under, we know big international NGOs partners and prospects and customers.
Speaker 2 00:45:54 Who've had to lay people off who who've had to reduce. Who've had to kind of contract their operations in order to survive. So I think never before, have we been so acutely aware of our own, um, vulnerability and, you know, as we talk about the concept of vulnerability, it's, it's only in the last few years that, you know, the lovely berberine brown has introduced the idea through research that this is actually a strength that, that, you know, by being, being vulnerable and by owning your shortcomings and my owning your, um, your nakedness in the world, that is also an incredibly incredible source of strength. It's a pool that we can derive incredible power from. And so as a company, I think there's never been a moment where we are more aware of how lucky we are to have gone on, um, how well positioned we are in this market and how much better we can do in the future by linking up with other types of companies like ours.
Speaker 2 00:46:55 I just, you know, now is the time for collaboration now is the time for coordination writ large, right? For, for all of us as individuals, as communities. Um, we are, um, you know, as you mentioned, Tracy, on the precipice of a very long drawn out heated political process, which will have an outcome at some point, and then what, right, because then we're still a country full of people, uh, that, that have to come back and get on with it, right. And get on with our jobs and our lives and our schools and our everything. And, um, to focus on, um, conciliation, to focus on the, bringing together the reparation is I think on a soul level and on a commercial level, a really important place to be an important place to invest your energy and your time. So the timing matters. And absolutely there is an element of foregoing, you know, the short-term ego in, in favor of the long-term value creation, no God
Speaker 0 00:48:02 In, in a neighborhood once. And I shared a lawn with my neighbor, uh, and for about half the time I lived in that house, we had this like tiny little, like two foot fence that went across our shared lawn. And it was such a pain in the ass. Like I would mow the lawn and I could never get to the ratty grass that was in the fence and she would mow her lawn and she could never get to the ratty grass in the fence. I eventually thought I would solve the problem by buying technology. So I bought like a $200 like weed Wacker, and I was like, we're going to do this. And I wound up actually damaging the fence with the power of the weed Wacker. And one day, like I was like looking at her and I was like, good Lord. It's not like we hate each other.
Speaker 0 00:48:41 Can we just get rid of this thing and agree that whoever moves the lawn will get to it first. And ever since that day, like what happened was, was when she mowed her lawn, she would do my side of the front lawn. When I mowed the front lawn, I would do her side of the front lawn and, and, and the whole yard looked better. Like I was reminded of that when you were just talking that, and, and that's the world we want to see, you know, because at the end of the day, we still got to go to school with our neighbors and we still have to live in the, in the neighborhoods that we live in, you know?
Speaker 1 00:49:11 And you just named her episode, the whole, it looks better. I love that the whole lot, Katie, it has been such a, always a pleasure to talk with you. Yeah. And thanks for your time and, and for the amazing work that you're doing, um, and, and continue to do and have done. So, um, really appreciate it. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:49:32 Yes. We're winding down. So I should do the traditional sort of end credits. You did it for me. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:49:46 Thank you. I say about myself is I keep great company and you two are an excellent team to talk with and be around. So thanks for having me. I'm very honored. I'm Tim lucky.
Speaker 0 00:50:00 I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 1 00:50:05 It matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 0 00:50:13 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
