Naming Frankenstein’s Monster

Speaker 1 00:00:07 The name of this episode is Naming Frankenstein's Monster. I love that name. Hi Tracy. Welcome to the show. Hey, Speaker 2 00:00:15 Tim. This also reminds me of a, uh, Metallica movie once called, You know, some kind of monster <laugh>. Uh, I wanna welcome our listeners. Tim and I just had an amazing conversation. Speaker 1 00:00:29 Uncomfortable but amazing Speaker 2 00:00:30 What I'm gonna say. It was profoundly uncomfortable and, and hopefully it will also be profoundly uncomfortable for you to listen to. So where we began is the metaphor of Frankenstein's monster for externalities created by the technology industry and how are they addressed? So we dive really deep into a conversation about what drives us apart as much as what brings us together and what does it mean ultimately to have something that has been sort of a rabbit in my mind around having a shared value system guidelines and parameters of use for technology. I'm gonna absolutely say this is a very philosophical conversation. This is one for thinkers and dreamers, industry leaders, nonprofit executives, and most importantly, leaders of reconciliation on the left and right, and folks who want to create a third pillar of understanding how the impact economy works with technology. And if you, we are willing to accept that without creating mechanize mechanisms that identify and remediate these externalities, we are lost. Then the challenge becomes what are the shared definitions and means by which they can be equitably and inclusively established. And I do mean that in the broadest sense, and Tim and I covered a lot of ground in this one. So we hope it is as challenging and interesting for you as it was for us. Speaker 1 00:02:04 And I can say it like the way I understand it, and I got it at the end cuz this is Tracy reading on it, is that we need an EPA or information just like we needed it for the environment. Speaker 2 00:02:19 There we go. Hope you enjoy. I want to talk today about Frankenstein's monster, and I'm going to elaborate on that as a metaphor throughout the course of this discussion because, Speaker 1 00:02:37 Well, it's actually a metaphor. We're not actually talking about Mary Shelley's Speaker 2 00:02:41 Notebook. It's a great book and you should read it, but metaphorically speaking, you know what happened with Frankenstein's monster, Right? Okay. Speaker 1 00:02:51 Does the monster have a name? I know that, I know it's not Frankenstein and I'm not gonna bug you by pretending that it is, but really, does the monster just never get a name? Can we talk about that for a minute? How can this thing be around for hundreds of years and still not have a name? Like somebody had to name it by now. Speaker 2 00:03:09 One could say that the theoretical name of it is Quasimoto, but that was taken by the hundred back of Speaker 1 00:03:14 No, there's no way that could be the name. I mean, it was French for one thing, like the whole other part of Europe. So there's that Speaker 2 00:03:23 France, you know, Is France part of Europe? I don't know, you know, Well, Speaker 1 00:03:27 <laugh> okay. I mean, Sylvania is definitely part of Europe. So anyway, Speaker 2 00:03:33 Okay, so there is a little self declared country called trans, I wanna say it's on the far eastern side of Moldova Uhhuh as it borders the Ukrainian border. Okay? And it was originally thought that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was gonna press right on through to transtria, Huh? Make Ukraine a landlocked country and connect the separatist Malian Malian state with the separatist Ukrainian states. And yeah, we all know how well that's going right now, So, Speaker 1 00:04:07 But we still like, yes, that's not going well. And we also don't have a name for Frankenstein Monster. Speaker 2 00:04:13 We don't, but that's not, that's not what we're here to talk about today. All Speaker 1 00:04:16 Right? So this is a metaphor. All right, keep Speaker 2 00:04:19 Going. Just a metaphor, what happened in the book? You know, scientist created a reanimated corpse from body parts and was unprepared for the outcomes and externalities of their own work. And you could say that that is a trope that has been reflected in everything from that book straight on through to like the Jurassic Park books that Michael Criton wrote. Right? You know, Speaker 1 00:04:47 He's not that different than the Bible, right? You know, where you create something and everything goes crazy. I mean, you know, it's all there. I know it's all very well, but Speaker 2 00:04:56 I mean, in some ways, like, dude, you're gonna laugh, but in some ways the Bible's awesome because it's all these stories of just like, you're like, Wow, what happened here? Or like Speaker 1 00:05:07 Crazy stuff in there Speaker 2 00:05:09 On crazy Speaker 1 00:05:10 Stuff in there. Absolutely. Speaker 2 00:05:12 Okay. My two favorites, Ezekiel's Wheel and Revelation alone make the whole book work. Speaker 1 00:05:18 Of course, of course. Revelation, I saw, I thought you'd go for the Emo King, you know, ins No, right? No, no, no, no. Oh yeah. I really thought you'd go there. Okay. Speaker 2 00:05:27 What is that? The yard birds that did that to everything? There is a season, I Speaker 1 00:05:31 Don't know. Yeah, no. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:05:33 Okay. Ezekiel's wheel, AKA ufo aka mescaline in the desert. Um, and Revelation, aka the end of the world, aka Speaker 1 00:05:42 Revel. No revelation was, Revelation is so outta context. Revelation was a graphic novel about what was gonna happen with the Roman Empire, and then it did. Speaker 2 00:05:52 Yeah, I know, right? Like Speaker 1 00:05:53 That's, Yeah, It's not what, is not what we think. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, so, so, Speaker 2 00:05:59 Okay, getting back to this concept, Why is it important? Because for years, the IT industry has worked on the idea that you, you move fast and you break things. And that has an, that has imbued an entire generation of thinkers about how to approach technology, but not just how to approach technology, how to sell technology, how to enable technology, how to implement technology. And you and I have had a lot of discussions from the people side of it about why that thinking is wrong for the people side. And what I wanna put forward today is this idea that that way of thinking about what you do with your technology, particularly in the next 10 to 15 years, is also equally wrong. And we've seen some super high profile blowouts of technology companies that talk from one side and sell and enable from another. And as those stories come to light, as whistleblowers step forward, as people talk about what technology is capable of doing, the conclusion I've come to is that technology is no longer the hurdle, technology is ubiquity. Speaker 2 00:07:25 And frankly, you know, this goes back to something we said very early on on this podcast, and that is, your data model is not your competitive advantage. Yeah. Nor is your feature function, nor are your field sets, Right? It was, it was 15, 20 years ago. We all grew up in a world where the newest, latest, greatest could actually make a difference. But just like we have Moore's law of Microprocessors, there's probably a similar law of diminishing returns as all of these companies start achieving some parody of feature and function, some parody of streamlined development of their work, and ultimately some kind of purpose matched tool to, to whatever they're trying to execute. Right? So technology's not the hurdle, nor is it the competitive Speaker 1 00:08:18 Advantage. I gotta I gotta say something about that before we move on, because I would say it isn't the competitive advantage, but it can quickly become your competitive disadvantage if you weren't keeping up. And what I mean by that, like very simple explanation is in the nonprofit space, you know, if you can't, like, if you can't do recurring donations in a simple data model and have that flow into some crm, like that's a huge competitive disadvantage. It doesn't buy you something, it just keeps you at the table, but you'll be excluded from the option set right away if you don't have a basic set of features and first one to the table on a few of those, there is a slight advantage there. But you and I both know, like it won't last long enough for it to stay your competitive advantage. And I don't think that it's, I don't think the innovation runs at a pace where you can just count on staying ahead anymore. Speaker 2 00:09:18 I completely agree with that. Yeah. And you know, it's like the first move on a chessboard, like, yeah, okay, so you draw white, you get the first move. That's an advantage in the first like five moves of the game. And then then it's anything goes. Yeah. And, you know, so similarly, you know, why I'm, why this is important to me and why I've been thinking about this a lot is because we in the United States have just moved through a period of time where the outcomes of enabling things with technology have become abundantly apparent to us as a society. The outcomes of siloed thinking and disinformation, the outcomes of enabling organizations with tools and technologies that are agnostically sold to them, that take away the rights of folks like myself. And frankly, that helped tear down a 50 year Supreme Court precedent in Roe versus Wade. So, you know, none of these organizations were able to do that without somebody selling them advocacy tools, fundraising tools, CRMs, you name it. And what I will say is, yes, the first thing that somebody's gonna say to me is, But Tracy technology is like cars. Everybody can have them and everybody can crash them. Speaker 1 00:10:44 Well, aren't isn't that what you're saying with technology is ubiquitous? Speaker 2 00:10:49 I am. And that's the point. Except we have a lot of hard and fast rules about what you can and can't do in a car, can't do drunk driving, can't do speeding. Right. Can't do lane splitting, can't do passing on the right. There's a lot of rules around having a car that make the acquisition of that vehicle and afterthought because you're like, great by buying this vehicle, that actually doesn't get me anything. What I have to do is get a license and not get points on my license, Not speed, not drive drunk, otherwise my license gets taken away, You know, but the car doesn't, now it just sits in my driveway and like the tires go flat and turn in a mush. Right? Speaker 1 00:11:35 I mean, yeah. I, I love this because this is like, like human stack 1 0 1 is that, you know, you get, you get a car and it doesn't help you if you don't know how to drive it. And so you have to know how to drive. So, Completely agree. And I love the metaphor because it, you know, uh, I use it all the time when I talk about that, um, I have not spent a lot of time thinking about the regulation around driving driver ed, et cetera. So that's, that's interesting. Like Speaker 2 00:12:06 That's where my mind is pretty much all the time. Yeah. Right. So, you know, if we're looking at a market where technological achievement is diminishing on returns, where competitiveness is no longer based in I've got the sexy new X, Y, Z or A, B, and C, how are we going to compete and what does that mean for the impact economy? And my answer is, you are competing with what you're enabling, period ended in final. And if your business enables things like hate groups and anti-abortion groups and anti G B T groups and proud boys and right wing people, then that says something about your values and we should know about it before we make the decision to use your technology. Period. And you could also say to me, But Tracy, that is just a left wing communist perspective and you live in California and how nice. That is fine. It can go in reverse. That's fine. You know, my sort Speaker 1 00:13:13 Of, Yeah, I mean, I think it reminds me of the conversation you and I had, and I don't, I mean, I think that this is very polarized waters, so I'm not totally happy and comfortable talking about this. And I think that's a problem. Like we need to talk about it even if it's uncomfortable. Yes. And so one of the, one of the comparatives is, you know, like the progressives have a lot more ownership in the tech industry and the, you know, and the conservatives have a lot more space in the oil and energy industry. And so if, if, if they turned around and we're like, we're not supplying power or oil to progressive organizations like that would, that would be a sting. Oh, right. Speaker 2 00:13:58 They can. And they did. Yeah. This is the, you know, I'm not sure when this is gonna release, but they can, and they did, because what just happened the week before we recorded this one is Joe Mansion woke up and realized he was a Democrat up until now he's been holding back everything that looks like environmental gains or any kind of green bill. And he finally woke up and realized, Oh God, I'm a Democrat. Why do I, you know, why am I doing this? So they can, And they have already, and that's my point. The polarization that has taken place in our society is permanent, it is irrevocable. And we are now dealing with two entirely different sets of people who live in two entirely different realities, informed by two entirely different sets of actual facts. Speaker 1 00:14:54 I mean, I'm definitely not willing to agree that, that this is irrevocable or irreversible like that, that to me feels like a step too far. That feels like, that feels like your propensity to just burn it down. Like, this is too much, we get, we gotta burn it down. I, I would say like we are in a, an extreme moment, no question about it. And Speaker 2 00:15:18 How are extreme moments reconciled in history? Tim Speaker 1 00:15:22 <laugh>? They, they are, there are, there are many different ways to reconcile those. They do not all end in a complete crash and burn. Okay. There. So, so, um, so I at least hope that we're not like, and I hope that what you're saying is not that technology needs to draw a sharp line, pick aside and then say, where are you? And that's it. Speaker 2 00:15:46 I'm saying that technology needs to be incredibly transparent about what it's enabling. Now that's what I'm saying. Speaker 1 00:15:54 I don't, I mean, I think technology, I think, I think organizations and humans have to be more transparent about that and technology will enable that. And technology companies, which is the industry you and I are in, have a habit of saying their progressive on one side and then actually like having whole other departments that are either selling or enabling other things. And that's not different. That Speaker 2 00:16:21 Is actually true. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:16:22 And this is, that's not different than Speaker 2 00:16:24 Coin Speaker 1 00:16:24 All other large organizations that have, you know, multiple departments, some of which are in charge of marketing, and part of that marketing is Nope. Speaker 2 00:16:35 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:16:35 Nope. Okay. Tell tell me why, tell me how that's different than crs. Okay. Speaker 2 00:16:40 Okay. Or csi. There's two things. The space in between these two extremes are now what I'm going to coin as a term that I'm gonna call hope washing. Okay. It's the idea that if you come to me as a technology company, not only can I cure what sia, but I actually care about you. And the premise behind sales is I don't care about you, I care about acv. And the premise behind technology development has always been move fast, break things and be agnostic to the world around you. So when these things collide, we end up in a world where companies are doing exactly what you described. And my hypothesis is that era is going to end very soon based on the conditions of what America as a country is experiencing, and for that matter what's happening globally. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, Speaker 1 00:17:35 You think that trend, So I'm, I'm going to say like we are into territory that my, like, my experience and my brain like can't either understand or reconcile. So I'm, I'm just gonna say like, yeah, this is territory, you know, much better than I do. And so like, Speaker 2 00:17:56 This is like every economic based podcast we've ever Speaker 1 00:17:59 Recorded. I know if we were, if we were stepping into the e economic side of this, uh, like I, I would be like holding your typical posture on this. So I'm gonna move because I can't, I can't speak with any authority or, you know, like whatever intelligence I could muster would not even come close to knowing what's going on. I'm just going to get curious here and say like, okay, what what does that look like? And how, how do you, like, one of my immediate thoughts on that is our, our, um, part of our vision at now it matters was to create hope. Right? Right. And so is that hope washing, Speaker 2 00:18:44 It's not hope washing if it's connected to something that you and I have also talked a lot about. And that is authenticity period. And that is the vector that I think this tension can actually be resolved through because me as an employee, Okay, here's a great example. I said to my boss the other day, I was like, Hey, you know what, like, I feel like I should care a lot about like all the internal DEI discussions and all the internal L G B T discussions and all the internal, like, how do we do this and what does it mean for us discussions? And I said, I'm sorry, but I can't, and I don't because I've spent too much time caring for them in the outside world. And thus when I see these discussions happen internally, I'm like, how do you all have the time for this? Speaker 2 00:19:42 Because my day generally is like nine hours of meetings and hoping to like, whatever God's I pray to that I can get my email sent out along the way, Right? It's just a function of where we are. We're at a high growth moment and we're at a moment where we have more work than people. Okay? That's a normal business growth vector. But why I said it was because I realized that there are three pre not preconditions, that's the wrong word. There are three layers of how this thing expresses itself. There's how a company treats its own employees, right? There's, you know, Hey, is this a safe workplace? Am I going to get harassed here? Are people gonna respect my pronouns? Whatever those things are, that is one layer. And that's what a lot of these discussions I was making ference to were, were referencing. And I'm like, I, I don't have time for that anymore because you either take me as who I am and what I'm doing, or you don't. Speaker 2 00:20:42 And that's just where I'm at at my career, right? There's the second layer and, and you just mentioned this, and that is, what do we want to bring to our customers as part of our engagement with them? And I don't think that giving customers hope about where they are in a journey of technology implementation is hope washing. I think it's actually an authentic value to say, if what we're going to do is engage with you, tell you exactly what we think is happening, right, wrong and indifferent, and give you a path forward using our services, using our technology, using whatever we're offering as a business, then you're not being inauthentic. What you're trying to do is move the needle somewhere for someone. So that's the second layer of this where my head is at, is this third layer of who are the someones that I'm doing this for, and are these someone's actors in our society and in our world that are tearing down others or tearing down our world, or are they building it up? And that's the layer that I think people don't talk about, and as you've rightly pointed out, is profoundly uncomfortable. And that's the layer where I will point the arrow and say, your hope washing, if what you do is mistake your actions on items number one and two for actually making a better world. If on item number three, what you're doing is that process for an organization whose sole purpose is to revoke my rights as a human being in this country. Right? Speaker 1 00:22:33 So Yeah, I, I agree. Like I can understand, like I can understand and appreciate for organizations whose core values are actually inverted from your own. Like completely. Like I think, and and I wanna say very carefully because I have friends in both sides of, or both organizations, Right? Like I said, in the middle in a way. Yeah. And, and I think that that's, and that's part of, part of why I've valued our friendships so much is that you have like really shown me a completely different way of thinking and it's been hugely impactful. And I wanna just say, can we, can we just say on the extremes, there are parts of this that are unanswerable, and I'm not saying we should not look for, for questions there, but I do wanna say a majority of commerce and a majority of what happens in business is not polarized like that. Speaker 1 00:23:39 It is actually in the middle and much messier. And the problem I see is that if you, if you start down that road too, in too much of an extreme, what happens is that suddenly, like a lot of the middle ground here disappears into, into this area where you have to evaluate like, why did you sell hamburgers to this group or these people or this senator? And I just feel like at, at some point that gets so damaging to the fabric of society that that's, that actually makes me worried. Like if there is no middle ground, if there is no place to just say like, Hey, like this is a restaurant and we serve people who are hungry and we don't know their political affiliations, we don't know everything about them, and that's, and, and they use a point of sale system. And I can imagine a world in which the company that provides that POS starts getting really careful and looking up Yelp reviews, et cetera, to make sure that they're not going to be in trouble for selling their point of sale system to a restaurant. And I, I feel like that is not, like, that's not an extreme version of where this goes. Like that's actually what would, that's where things are trending in some ways. And that does make me nervous. Does that make sense or is that out of it's, Speaker 2 00:25:11 Oh, it makes total sense to me. And what I would say in return are two things. One is it depends on your definition of extreme, because that's what we're really talking about here, uh, is what is the definition of extreme. And two, as a total sidebar, I loved that you thought of a restaurant because how did restaurants operate all the way up until, let's say the mid 1960s? Speaker 1 00:25:42 Yeah. Right? Yeah, it was, yeah, very inequitable, Speaker 2 00:25:48 Very inequitable, very Jim Crow. They still served people, but did they do it absolutely fundamentally wrong? Yes. And, you know, so therefore what we're talking about is the definition of extreme. And in my mind, it is not extreme to say that you cannot use our tools, our products, our services to do three or four fundamental things, undermine the liberties of others. That's a very broad concept. You cannot use tools or services or structures to revoke or otherwise pollute or destroy environmental access. You cannot use tools or services or products to create or sell disinformation and lies. There's three things right there that are not extreme, but our root cause contributions to where we as a country are right now. Speaker 1 00:27:10 Yeah. I, I don't like, I mean, this is very uncomfortable conversation, Speaker 2 00:27:17 <laugh>. I love seeing you uncomfortable. Speaker 1 00:27:19 Like this is, this is like, yeah, this is very uncomfortable and I don't mind it. I just want to say like, I'm uncomfortable. This is uncharted territory, mu I feel much safer talking about like how you implement and all the rest that said, um, and this is where I, I know both of this follow Allison Taylor. Oh, and can Speaker 2 00:27:41 I get her on this podcast by Speaker 1 00:27:43 Crook and her and her ethical systems framework, I think is absolutely critical. And, and so I, I'll just say right now I'm outta my depth on this. What I found is when I follow the kinds of thinking that Allison is talking about, she, she actually is making ethical lines and at the same time saying like, it can't just be like in your examples, and I, I'm not speaking for Alison, but I'm, I'm just referencing her as somebody that helps me think this through a little Speaker 2 00:28:16 Bit. Yeah, yeah. Oh, I Speaker 1 00:28:17 Adore. But one of the, one of the questions that I feel like she raises well is who decides on these things, right? Like, who decides what misinformation is? And that's not to say there's no such thing as truth or Absolutely is. And you can say like there's misinformation. I don't know if you watched any of the Alex Jones trial, but Speaker 2 00:28:37 I've been following that very intently, Speaker 1 00:28:39 The judge that, you know, when the judge said like, No, you cannot say these things to the jury, they are not true. Um, I, I just thought that is, that is so helpful to get somebody in a courtroom and have an authority figure say, this is what you can and cannot say. Unfortunately, we don't mostly live in that world where people can, like there is an arbiter of what you can or not and, and can't say. And so I just feel like, you know, environmental access, like I live in Montana, environmental access and the word access in Montana is a, is is a very triggered word. You know, like there are land trusts and there's private groups and there are people that are like, you know, there's a, a group that is doing, I think good work on doing conservation, but the ranchers around that work do not feel like it's good work. And I, you know, my parents come from a ranching background and when I listen to ranchers, I'm like, Yeah, that makes sense. And when I listen to those conservation, you know, organization, I'm like, that makes sense. So I just feel like this, like who ends up deciding that? Okay, so it goes to a judge, Okay, who appointed the judge, Right? Like I, I just feel like this gets really, I Speaker 2 00:29:55 Appreciate you asking these questions. Here's what I will say, Okay, first of all, you're ranching is an incredibly interesting thing to pick at, right? Because you're looking at something that is not only a livelihood for people, you're also looking at something that is an economic bedrock of, you know, food supply in the United States, right? Yeah. But I'll tell you what, those ranchers ain't doing none of 'em. I don't know a single rancher out here, cuz I live in Livermore and I know farmers and ranchers now too, tell you what none of them are doing. None of them are saying, you know what I'm gonna do because this is my land and nobody else's. I got a bunch of industrial waste I need to get rid of, so I'm just gonna create my own burn pit and light that on fire. Right. Ranchers ain't doing that. Right. That's what I mean. There are clear parameters around these things Yeah. That we can identify mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that is the problem is we haven't had enough discussions around what those clear parameters are mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And so consequently when we arrive at these moments, everybody brings up their straw man of choice. Yeah. You know, or their slippery slope of like Yeah. Right. Hyperbole and we get nowhere. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:31:16 And you know, to answer your question, fine, maybe, maybe there's a new field of study, you know, like, because everything else is hope washing. If you're a rancher and you come to me and say, Hey look, you can't keep doing this. It's gonna shut down my farm, it's gonna shut down my business. I'll sit down and I'll be like, you know what? You're right. Like this is your livelihood and you're not gonna get me on the like, history and culture and all that jazz. You're gonna get me on the fact that what you are doing as a rancher is providing staple to the American economy. You're providing food that is necessary and you're sustaining your business in the only way that you know how. Now if you as a rancher come to me and do that and say, and you know, all the tractors I've ever just not needed, I just buried in the ground behind my farm and lit on fire, I'll be like, Mm, you don't have a leg to stand on now. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:32:16 Cause tractors are incredibly hard to light on fire for one thing. Speaker 2 00:32:19 Uh, Speaker 1 00:32:20 But they're not gonna come to you. Right. Like, they're gonna go, they're gonna band together and get a lobbyist and they're gonna change loss. Well, Speaker 2 00:32:27 And, and Right. So it's like if what you're doing is creating a Superfund site on your farm, that's a different discussion. Yeah. Right? And that's my point. There are clear parameters, there are ways of defining these things. Here's another great example. Speaker 1 00:32:42 Ok, here's so, ok, wait, Speaker 2 00:32:43 Another great example. Churches, right? Speaker 1 00:32:46 Oh gosh, what churches do? No. Are we gonna go here please? No. Speaker 2 00:32:50 Churches provide several incredibly necessary functions. They provide a faith home, they provide sometimes food and sometimes they provide clothing. Now, there is a big difference between a church doing these functions and saying to its own parish, these are the values of our parish that we preach. And you may join my parish if you believe these values and you may opt out if you don't. There is a huge difference between a church doing that and a church saying, The only way that you are going to get our food or our clothing or our shelter is if you ascribe to our values. Or even worse because we're doing these things. Well, we're going to use that as a platform to make other people in the community abide by these values regardless of whether or not they're members of the parish. Huge difference, very clear lines. If we did not have faith institutions in this country, there would be a heck of a lot more starving un unclothed and unsheltered people. Speaker 2 00:34:04 And that is the world we want is where the freedom to accomplish those positive outcomes is balanced by the respect and boundaries of what you're doing along the way to create them. Otherwise, this is what I'm gonna call hope washing. Because if what you do is, all you market is we fed 50 families this month, we closed 500 people and we housed 10 people, but we also decided to go ahead and get involved with a 5 0 1 c four pack that's working on making sure that there is zero abortion access in our state. Then your hope washing, then you're talking out one side and acting out another. And under those parameters, I would say as a technology company, I would be super worried about what my product is being used for. Speaker 1 00:35:00 Yeah. I sh I just feel like at the end of the day, what you're, the way you're going to to make that decision is much like the conversation we had with Marni, uh, Marni Webb. Yes. Around, around like the power of a checkbox, right? Like the, it's it's almost a feature to function parody of why is the disadvantage to not have the kind of features to keep up with others. Because it, what happens is people run a filter check on what, what properties and what features do these, uh, do these various platforms offer? And then they say yes, no, based on that. Now you and I both know, like if one of those says integrations and Tim San Antonio just is putting a ton of great stuff out on integrations right now. Yes, he Speaker 2 00:35:59 Has been. Speaker 1 00:35:59 Yes he is. Yeah, absolutely. And so if you're looking at a checkbox that says integrations and one says yes, and the other says no, it may be because one was being authentic about a CSV crossover not being an integration and the other saying, Oh, we call that an integration. Right. And my my point on this is that if you could get to the heart of the issue on all of these different churches, great. And if you could actually know what's going on in them, great. But you can't, What you'll know instead is, are they open and affirming yes or no? And if it's a no, then like you'll start tagging these communities with very blunt instruments and call it authenticity and transparency. And I know that that is actually not enough. Just like, just like, it, it, it doesn't get at the whole of the organization. These become not authenticity. These become symbols that become rallying points and lightning issues that, that actually don't help the conversation and seem like they're transparency and seem like they get at the question of enablement. But they, but they really do not in the way that you are talking about, you're talking about a rancher talking to you about the thing that they're doing. It doesn't work that way. What happens is that you have to make wide sweeping decisions as a technology company. Speaker 2 00:37:34 That's what I was gonna press on is you're talking now about the size of the brush stroke that Speaker 1 00:37:38 Obtaining Absolut. Absolutely, I am. And and what I'm saying is that corporations are so large that they have to start making sweeping brush strokes. And when they start doing that, people start seeing the economic value of the brush stroke itself and Speaker 2 00:37:56 Market instead on that, Speaker 1 00:37:58 That system of you're talking the same thing. Yes. You're just switching the variables. You're not actually getting at enablement though. Speaker 2 00:38:07 Okay. So, you know, let's assume we live in a world then therefore, cuz what you're asking about now is what, what size brush stroke are we talking about? And who's the arbiter of the pain? Right. Speaker 1 00:38:19 Partly, I'm also partly pointing out that just like people were not all good or all bad. And then that's the thing that, that that's the, the part that really is I think, the most frustrating to me about these conversations. Not that I'm frustrated the conversation, it scares me, but I like it, you know, I Speaker 2 00:38:44 Like it too. And I'm, but what is, this is why I wanted to have it with you, because I know you will bring up really interesting stuff Speaker 1 00:38:50 And, and so I live with very conservative parents as you as you've met, and they're also some of the most father Speaker 2 00:39:00 Whom I still can't bring to make. Right. You know, your father whom I still can't bring to call by his first name and just call Mr. Lock, say, Thank you sir. <laugh> you love your dad. Speaker 1 00:39:09 Well, you don't know is my dad and mom frequently say to me, Tim, we think about the world differently because of the way that you've challenged us to think. So I've had homeless stay with them, homeless friends of mine stay with them because they're hospitable. Like they love having guests what they do well. Right? Absolutely. And this is all born out of an evangelical faith background and none of the data points line up. Right. And, and so, you know, I I have watched them have people live and stay with them who have completely different backgrounds from them and, and, and the love and concern that they have for everybody that comes through that door is the same. And that, and if you, but if you put them on a checkbox, if you put them on a list and said, where are their values? They would not line up. Speaker 1 00:40:05 They would not line up. And I think, I don't know what to do with that because they, I do not agree with their, with the decisions on their values. And still they're better people than either you or me, like, you know, been around them. They're just fundamentally better people than we are. And I don't, I I feel like that's what gets lost in these conversations is the quality of personhood and care and love and making the world better at, and and maybe I'm making this so low to the ground that's personal and not corporate. And, and, and I'm sure that there's a problem with that too, but I also wanna talking Speaker 2 00:40:45 About like the personal is political. That was the entry point to my collegiate education. Yes. Speaker 1 00:40:51 And, and I also, I feel like Speaker 2 00:40:53 It goes in both directions and we forget that on the left all the time. Speaker 1 00:40:58 And I remember, um, a couple weeks ago I had a conversation with my dad where I walked him through the power of the moral majority, and it was the first time he had ever seen that. And it was really haunting for him to think like, I maybe I got used on all this worked. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna say something and, and I'll, and and I don't want anybody to hate my, my parents. Like this is just where they were. They were people in Montana who were figuring out life had four kids, had a had a business that had gone out of business. And my, my dad, instead of this, I'm so proud of him, instead of declaring bankruptcy, like Locke's pay their bills. So he spent the next 20 years paying off an $80,000 tab on a business that failed instead of declaring bankruptcy. Right. Yeah. And he did that one piece of pottery at a time that he handmade on a wheel out behind our house working late at night. Like this guy is a hard worker. Yeah. And part of that was he would listen to, he would listen to Christian radio, right? Yeah. And one of the, one of his favorites was James Dobson. Speaker 2 00:42:05 Oh. Um, no, Speaker 1 00:42:07 I know, I know, Speaker 2 00:42:09 I know. Speaker 1 00:42:10 So, and I'm, and I'm saying like, I like that was my background. Uh, I, I listened to it too. My dad, my dad even sold mugs to focus on the family and was very proud of that, very happy about that. And, and I, and I told my dad like, never tell anybody, never tell anybody on my side about that, by the way. So here I am telling it Speaker 2 00:42:31 Funny. I will not know. It's okay. Now 10,000 people on the internet know. Right. Speaker 1 00:42:34 Exactly. Right. And so part of what I wanna say here is part of what I wanna say here is he, when when I was telling him about here's what happened in the seventies and here's in the eighties why they picked moral majority and abortion as the linchpin and then started spelling out, I could just, I could see the fear about me being right around that in, in what he was hearing because Yeah, that's not, that wasn't his story. That's not what he understood me going on. And I just wanna, I just wanna say like, I feel like it's easy to forget that in these conversations. Right. Speaker 2 00:43:18 And I think you're a hundred percent right. I'm not gonna disagree with you on that, but there is a line between, you know, Dobson rush limbo, Alex Jones Qing on, that's where that goes. And that's the power of manipulation and disinformation as well. Speaker 1 00:43:35 Uh, and I also think that that progression is important because I think if there was a direct line between those, it wouldn't work, but because it has been a slow progressive line, it does and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and yeah, I, I think that is scary and terrifying. I also feel like we are crazy if we think that can't happen to us. And if we think that we are not also in our own ways involved in that kind of mind washing, right? Like, Speaker 2 00:44:09 Oh, there are reasons why, you know, for me at least personally, like taking it to a personal level and then I want to sort of like bring it back out a little bit because you're right. Like first of all, the personal is political. That has been the rallying flag of the left for a long time. But guess what, it's so true for people on the right. Yeah. We just sort of wash over that all the time because we're like, No, no, you people are idiots. That's actually not true. Yeah. Right. That is not true. Speaker 1 00:44:40 Yeah. These are people on a journey just like we are on a journey. Exactly. And we're getting fed information and yeah. Okay. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:44:48 So Speaker 1 00:44:49 Thank you for acknowledging that. I, I just have to say like, it's very scary to put out some of that very personal messaging and I appreciate your respect for that. Speaker 2 00:44:58 That has always been the value or one of the underlying values of what's made our friendship work is we really do push each other to think and grow. And I appreciate that. Yeah. But you know, to the meta context in which all of this is happening, one of the things that I was taught very out very early on in my sort of community organizing career is please divest intent from outcome. Speaker 1 00:45:24 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:45:24 And what I mean by that is, you know, the best, you know, it, it's sort of the political or the political read on the road to Hell is being paved with good intentions. Right. And you can be the most well-intended person and still have unbelievably negative externalities around your actions. And I think that's really what I want to press on, is we're living in a time where we can no longer afford to not examine what those negative externalities are. Yeah. And I agree with you that, you know, leaving this to companies alone to figure out <laugh>, we tried that it was called Yeah. It didn't work so good. Speaker 1 00:46:11 Well, or I don't know if you read the add Speaker 2 00:46:13 To anything, but that's just my opinion. Speaker 1 00:46:16 I don't know if you read the impact investing, the guy that was in charge of impact investing for BlackRock wrote an essay on why he was leaving that. Speaker 2 00:46:24 Yes, exactly. Speaker 1 00:46:25 And his end conclusion was, is scary to think about the government working on, you know, impact investing. And yet as scary as that is, it is much less scary than leaving it up to the businessmen. Speaker 2 00:46:39 That's exactly, Speaker 1 00:46:40 That was good call for me. Speaker 2 00:46:43 What is informing, and that was Speaker 1 00:46:44 Just a long time ago, an essay that last six months. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:46:48 That was like early 2022. That is exactly what started me down this rabbit hole was reading that. Yeah. And I mean, look, I have a few elements of myself where I'm like, you know, I'm here from the, I'm from the government and I'm here to help. That can sometimes be terrifying, right? Yeah. That was the rally cry of Ronald Reagan. So if it's not corporations, but Speaker 1 00:47:11 I'm the CEO and I'm here to help, somehow we're feeling like, great. Like that's even crazier. I know. Like, you know, Speaker 2 00:47:20 You know what movie, What movie? Totally nailed the disconnected semi Well-intended, but not really ceo. It was a terrible movie by the way. I'm just gonna say it. I saw the last Jurassic World movie. Um Oh really? Speaker 1 00:47:34 Yeah. I can't wait. No. Wait, you got de spoilers for me on Speaker 2 00:47:37 That. I'm not gonna do spoilers on it, Speaker 1 00:47:39 But Okay, good. If you look, Do the dinosaurs win. I just wanna know. Nevermind. I don't wanna know. Speaker 2 00:47:43 Dinosaurs always win. Speaker 1 00:47:44 I know. That's why I love those movies. I Speaker 2 00:47:47 Know. I like, I saw that with our oldest and I was like, Dude, we Speaker 1 00:47:52 About Speaker 2 00:47:52 To watch some hot quack and Dinos Slack, Speaker 1 00:47:54 There's baby, Speaker 2 00:47:56 And he was God, I hope so. Did Speaker 1 00:47:58 He, did he, was he like in for the science and like, wait, no, that didn't exist for 50 million years until this other one. Oh. Speaker 2 00:48:05 I was like, Dude, I need you to shut up because none of the science in this movie is gonna make sense. I was like, what I'm gonna tell you is we are here to get to that one moment in time where the two biggest rubbers. Right, Speaker 1 00:48:17 Exactly. That's, that's all I'm there for Speaker 2 00:48:20 Chopping on each each other and, but if he Speaker 1 00:48:22 Goes Speaker 2 00:48:22 To the theater is shaken and it's awesome. Speaker 1 00:48:24 Absolutely. All right, cool. But Speaker 2 00:48:26 That movie totally nailed the disconnected CEO who's like, I'm doing good, but not really. Yeah. Right, right. Yeah. Totally nailed that archetype. And so therefore, you know, the kind of stuff, you know, taking it all the way back to, to my big professional crush, which is Allison, you know, like take it back to that ethical system thing. So what we need is a more neutral body, and what we need is a more neutral platform. And what I would say is true is the path to getting there has to be, at some point you're spot on, right. We have to look at outliers and say, You're outliers, you're out of here. Yeah. You, you have, you have divested yourself. Right, Speaker 1 00:49:11 Exactly. The table yourself sell out. No way. Speaker 2 00:49:14 Yeah, because you're an outlier. Yeah. And you're either an outlier because what you wanna do is tear down my life in liberty, or you're an outlier because like you're like on the far far left and you're like, the only way to solve America is to burn everything down and destroy property and like, make people suffer. Right? Yeah. There are outliers on both sides that should be excluded. Period. And by the way, violence is another like, big thing that is coming up, you know? I know. Speaker 1 00:49:41 Like, well, and that's what, when you say things like this is irreversible and irrevocable like that, that is, that's where violence, like then you're then the only option is like, and I live is is guns is guns and land. Right. And I live in a state where like people actually like get guns and land and I know, you know, like that's, that's just the way it goes after I've purchased some land, like tears, but no guns yet, Speaker 2 00:50:12 I still do believe it is irreversible and irrevocable because we haven't set ourself up on a path to say what are the actual definitions of these things by which we should abide as a society, You know, know, I Speaker 1 00:50:27 Mean, I would agree with you. That's Speaker 2 00:50:28 My driver's license. I Speaker 1 00:50:30 Don't, I irrevocable, what I would say is I agree with you in the sense that the way forward will not look like any of the paths that brought us here. Speaker 2 00:50:40 Yes. And that Speaker 1 00:50:41 Is you, if that's what you mean by revocable. That's exactly Rev. Yes. Speaker 2 00:50:45 That is exactly my point. It is irreversible and irrevocable because we are now on an entirely new path. Speaker 1 00:50:52 Yeah. I I think that is absolutely true. Uh, I think that that's absolutely true. I also don't think it's hopeless to find that path forward. And I think that's what I thought you were saying, but I don't, I I don't think that's what you're saying. I think what you're saying is I'm saying Speaker 2 00:51:06 That the preconditions of polarization and the preconditions of disinformation and the preconditions of entrenchment that we are living through right now, particularly in the United States, but also you could make this case in many other countries at this moment in time. Exactly. Match the 40 years leading up to the American Civil War. And I'm not seeing that as an alarmist. I'm saying that as, hey, maybe there's some historical moments, right? Yeah. We can look back on and say, we don't have to get to this point. Speaker 1 00:51:40 Right. Speaker 2 00:51:40 And, and living in a society that is obsessed with violence, that glorifies it, obsessed with, you know, fatalistic and nihilistic thinking and obsessed with capitalism like <laugh>, maybe we ought to kind of work on those obsessions so that that point in time where it broke for this country in the late 18 hundreds doesn't happen again. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, and, and the starting point for that now is different than the starting point then, like the starting point then was, Hey, maybe we shouldn't allow the press to just publish anything under anybody's name with zero accountability to inflame people for the purposes of, you know, populist vote getting. Right. That was one of the things that was happening back then, Right. And so now it's like we're living in a world where we need new conditions for success. Well, Speaker 1 00:52:44 And one of the, you know, I mean, factories were a major component of what happened in, in the outcome of that war, right? Absolutely. And so, and, and I wanna draw parallel there, between tech is the new factory, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I, and so I do, I feel like, wait, is this conversation even a why it matters conversation? And I think it is because the role of tech in the way that tech is, you know, affects things and has, like, you can write now an app that goes global and it's, it's not even a big deal. The cost of writing code is now so low. Like it is not, that's not the challenge. And so I agree with you. I think the challenge here is how do you drive, and even more importantly, what kind of traffic rules is it time to start creating and enforcing That Speaker 2 00:53:37 Is Speaker 1 00:53:37 Exactly Speaker 2 00:53:38 What Speaker 1 00:53:38 Is why we've gotta get Allison Taylor on here because Allison is, j Allison just thinks about this in a completely different way and has been for a long time before a lot of us thought it was important. And I will say I, I've been pro ESG for a long time thinking it was so much better than right. Yeah. And you, and, and you were like, Ah, you know, well is it? And I was like, Yeah, it's gonna be amazing or whatever. And I think Alison has done so much to be like, actually, like, doesn't matter how much you put on the financials Yeah. And it's better than in the marketing like csg uh, is, is way, ESG is way better than, you know, csr like Yes. But is still not going to actually address ethical que questions. And we actually need a governing body to take that on. Yes. And I think that that's Yes. Yes. That is really intriguing in the idea of like car manufacturers, dealerships, drivers, ed, and then you are talking about the dmv. I just want to be sure that you recognize, you're saying, I am talking about the dmv, we dmz the slow moving like Zootopia slot, you know, and actually that world is better. Yes. And not having one, Speaker 2 00:54:58 I didn't for the longest time understand parts of Europe. I'm like, why? What, why? You know, there, and I've had this discussion in two realms. You're, you're, you're nailing exactly the outcome I wanted to get to in this conversation because, you know, I've had this discussion in two worlds. I've had this discussion with a giant enormous technology company who, you know, I was like, Look, you guys could actually be a little more agile in the following ways. And they were like, Oh, we're not unaware of that. It's just that we're so big that if we move fast, it causes disruptions that we didn't plan on. And I was like, Okay. Yeah. If you're self aware of that, then that's a lot different than creating bureaucracy Speaker 1 00:55:51 That's creating your own weather patterns, right? Yeah. Like, Right. Speaker 2 00:55:55 That's Speaker 1 00:55:55 Crazy. Speaker 2 00:55:56 If you're aware that you do that Yeah. Then I would reward you for that self awareness. Similarly, the European Union, like there are things where I'm just like, really? That's what the European Union is like thinking about right now. And then I spent a crap ton of time in Europe in the past five, 10 years, and I'm like, Speaker 1 00:56:15 Oh, Speaker 2 00:56:17 Now I get it. Yeah. Because you're talking about balancing the economic and political and frankly social livelihoods of X number of member states. Speaker 1 00:56:30 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:56:31 All of which have various levels of accomplishment on each of those sliders. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, some of which can afford to move very agilely on some and some of which can't move on any because of preconditions Yeah. That the EU can't do anything about. Yeah. So when I think about it in that way, yeah. Okay. But we do have the DMV now, can the DMV improve things? Sure. When I needed to renew my license, instead of having to stand in line for an hour and a half, I like finally was able to just press a button online and renew. Oh my gosh. Like, it's not amazing. You have, I know. They were like, Do you have any tickets? Do you have any of this? Do you have any of that? And I was like, No, no, no, no. Great, here's your new renewal. Oh Speaker 1 00:57:13 My gosh. And how many of those were true? Speaker 2 00:57:15 They all true <laugh>, I don't lie. You can't. You, you know what happens? Why they ask you that is because they're checking your record while you're Speaker 1 00:57:22 Asking. They're saying if you're authentic or not. Speaker 2 00:57:25 This is exactly correct. It's not like they don't already know that. Right. Speaker 1 00:57:30 Exactly. These questions, right? Yeah. Speaker 2 00:57:32 You know? Yeah. Right. So it's like whatever. Speaker 1 00:57:34 Yeah, Speaker 2 00:57:35 That's my point. So if it needs to move slowly, it needs to move slowly, but it needs to exist. And it, the other thing exist in a space that prevents hope washing where it's, you know, like, we're gonna make all these things possible, but then we're gonna create a burn pit in our backyard because we're too lazy to think about our externalities. Speaker 1 00:57:59 And I, I also wanna just point out that we actually need each of those parts to work. Well, we, in order for you to be able to check a couple of boxes, and we're not even getting into the implicit bias of like, why you get to check boxes and other people don't. Right. Like Speaker 2 00:58:21 Precisely. Right. This is why the EU moves slowly. Speaker 1 00:58:25 Right. Exactly. But that said, we, it is important, It is important to have technology that makes that even possible. And it is also important to have, um, dealerships that can get those two government agencies or other corporations, et cetera. And it is really important. So the tech has to work really well on the up and down access, Right. The tech stack. And it's really critical for the human stack to also work really well as its own independent piece. And I like what you're talking about, you just wanted Speaker 2 00:59:02 To shamelessly plug your new brand. Speaker 1 00:59:04 No, well, I am, because I believe it so much. Like, this is the issue is that we've been, we've get so confused about the tech doesn't work, and it does, like the tech actually works almost all the time. It's a big calculator. Yeah. And so, and, and when you confuse those two elements, and when you confuse the time zones, like the amount of time Yeah. It takes to stand up tech is nothing. Weeks, months, The amount of time it takes to change humans is quarters, years. And so, yeah, I do wanna plug the brand because it's actually introducing a really critical component into technology, which is we have to actually separate these things so that they can be excellent in and of themselves. Right. That's Speaker 2 00:59:47 Actually very Speaker 1 00:59:48 True. And that, I think that's the main point is that when you combine it all, it, it becomes this big meaningless ball of, you know, of everything that, that you can't actually separate out and say, we need to make this better, including, and it starts to fold in on itself, Right? Your ability to drive depends on the car being good, your ability to go and get, you know, your license depends on the tech being good. This, these things are connected. And, um, and I think that that's important too. And when we talk about enablement, I think you mean like, what are you, I think you're thinking enablement in terms of impact, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like what impact are you enabling in the world? Speaker 2 01:00:29 Personalities that you're creating. Exactly. Speaker 1 01:00:31 And I wanna say enablement is also like, what are you enabling in terms of, are people actually able to use what it is that you are putting out there? Absolutely. Well, can you do that? Because like, this is back to where better software with low enablement means that another, another company will win because they can enable and create better adoption patterns, et cetera. They Speaker 2 01:00:58 Can help wash it really well. You're right. And what we're actually pointing at here is that third pillar, right? Yeah. You've, you've very succinctly boiled this down to three pillars. Does the tech work, yes or no? Do the humans work? Yes or no? Does the measuring of externalities work? Yeah. Yes or no? And maybe they're columns holding up a roof, Maybe they are layers of a pyramid. But at the end of the day, that's what I wanted to drive at on this conversation was we need that third column now because in every other area of our lives, there are bumpers around creating horrible externalities. Yep. And they do not exist in this realm. And it is literally killing us. You're Speaker 1 01:01:45 Talking about both as Speaker 2 01:01:45 A planet and as a society, Speaker 1 01:01:47 The EPA of information. Speaker 2 01:01:50 Yeah. Speaker 1 01:01:51 Yeah. Speaker 2 01:01:52 And it's a scary concept because Speaker 1 01:01:55 I You say that at the beginning Speaker 2 01:01:56 Because I like Frankensteins monster Speaker 1 01:01:59 Because Speaker 2 01:02:00 That's, Speaker 1 01:02:01 That's, that's really, really, like, I, I feel like I missed it until just now. Like I, if Speaker 2 01:02:08 Frankenstein's Monster should never have existed because if that entity existed, you know, the scientist would've said, Wow, maybe without understanding what's going through the brain of this thing, I shouldn't actually bring it to life. Speaker 1 01:02:24 Okay. I'm gonna go one step further and say, if you'd never named the monster, then it grows up feeling like it doesn't have a place to belong. And so, no, you should create the monster because everything, every agency and every, every protection that's come up has happened because there is a monster that needs to get TAed. Right. Okay. Speaker 2 01:02:46 Fair, Speaker 1 01:02:47 Fair. So I actually feel like, no, what's actually at stake here is it's, so the movie is Young Frankenstein that we should be watching, not Frankenstein. I was Speaker 2 01:02:57 Gonna say the movie is Stranger Things We Should Be Watching. Cause who you're talking about here is 11. Speaker 1 01:03:02 Yeah, I did, I never saw any of that, so I have no idea what you mean. No, I are, you go, I, I I alert me on. No, I haven't seen it. It scares me, <laugh>. I'm like, I hate watching things that scare me. Now it's out. I'm like, such a chicken. Well, I couldn't even watch the sixth sts. My wife had to hold my hand. It was so embarrassing. But I think it's, I think this is a really important point. Not, um, partly because I think Belong is so critical to understand in technology, but also because you, you can't pre regulate this stuff. It doesn't ever work that way. Speaker 2 01:03:35 No. You Speaker 1 01:03:35 Have to actually say, this is what's broken. And so I actually feel like maybe we're right on track on this. Like, technology is not that old, uh, in terms of the ability to create the level of technology we're talking, we're like less than two decades in. And so, yeah. I, I don't think we are early on in, I think we are still early on in this process, I think is really critical what you're talking about. But I also feel like it's not surprising that we're going to see where it goes wrong. And now it's time to put those bumpers up. Right. Speaker 2 01:04:09 Well, I mean, you know, let's talk about a song that no longer has any meaning. Hey, Boston Harbor. Love that. Dirty Water Boston. You're my home. Right? Speaker 1 01:04:19 I don't know that song. That's Speaker 2 01:04:20 Tabber. You do. I've Speaker 1 01:04:22 No, I I have no idea what you're talking about. Speaker 2 01:04:24 I'm not gonna sing it cause I'm a terrible singer. People know it, It was song about how Horrifyingly Filthy Boston Harbor was Oh. In the sixties and seventies. Okay. And that was before people realized, hey, maybe we ought not to let Speaker 1 01:04:40 All Speaker 2 01:04:40 Of the industries just kind of dump their stuff into the harbor. And Boston went on a multi decade cleanup project. And now Boston Harbor's actually clean. Right. Speaker 1 01:04:49 And measuring externalities. That's right. You have to have the externalities in order to measure them. Speaker 2 01:04:53 Right. But, and now what I'm actually going to say is, you're spot on. Right. Maybe, maybe this profound worry of mine is here for a reason. Because we're at that moment where we can very, very, very, very clearly point to here are some horrific externalities that have been able through this. Yes. And therefore, my challenge to the listeners is, what do we do next? How do we prevent these from happening again and again? Because if we do not, it's not going to bring us together. It's going to terrace more. Speaker 1 01:05:26 Yeah. Right. Yeah. Um, Tracy is a great, like, there's such a great, Speaker 2 01:05:34 This Speaker 1 01:05:35 Conversation scratched such a bitch. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Thank thanks Speaker 2 01:05:39 For being there for it the whole time. Speaker 1 01:05:41 Yeah, absolutely. Have a great week. Speaker 2 01:05:44 You too. Have a great week. Listeners look to talk to us in. This is Tracy Kza. Speaker 3 01:05:49 And I'm Tim Lockey. Speaker 2 01:05:51 And you've been listening to Why It Matters and Independent Production that captures our passions, personalities and purpose for technology as applied to the impact economy. Speaker 3 01:06:02 All of that's important, but even more important, we are here to have fun and introduce some of the people and ideas that keep us up at night and get us out of bed in the morning. Speaker 2 01:06:11 We are so grateful that you've been listening to us. We have no idea why you'd wanna do that. Maybe you lost a bet. Maybe you're stuck in a car with someone else controlling the sound system. Or maybe you are truly interested in what we have to say. 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