Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 This episode is called Only Bad Marketing is Overhead. Hi, Tracy.
Speaker 2 00:00:12 Hey, Tim. How are you?
Speaker 1 00:00:13 Good. It's so great to see you. It's been way too long. I, I miss you a lot. It's great to see you, my friend.
Speaker 2 00:00:20 We were just talking about how, like, we kind of fell outta sync on all of this, and now we're finally starting to get groove back. So I'm super excited. I'm super excited to introduce our first guests for the first time in a while. This conversation that we're about to have digs into so many of the fundamentals regarding our own assumptions about what things should look like for marketing and business, uh, how those tropes got created. And more importantly, this is the conversation about a vision for what can be different. When we reassess what's really important to us, there's so much hype around bringing marketing to the masses. And our guest, Lindsay, really unpicks the inefficiencies and false narratives that make these common approaches counterproductive and costly more than anything else, this is a conversation about humans, humanity, and meeting human needs where they're at, and how that's actually a scalable approach to bringing more successful outcomes and mitigating externalities that get in the way of our genuine connection with each other. And our message. Really looking forward to this and hope you enjoy it. Hi folks. Welcome to the show. We are here today with Lindsay Lashelle. It is such a joy to have you join us, Lindsay, in the fine tradition of why it matters, please introduce yourself and tell us you,
Speaker 3 00:01:51 Uh, well, thank you for having me. I am really excited for this conversation. Um, my name is Lindsay Lachelle. I am a marketing activist. Um, right now my job is the founder and CEO of Open Lines Marketing, but my work is to support anyone whose success creates more justice, equity, or sustainability by helping them craft a marketing plan that will be more, uh, efficient and more effective. So I just, I'm really just on a very practical level trying to support, you know, queer women, bipo, founders, nonprofits, b CORs, like any, anyone who is working on, on purpose, um, and just make sure their marketing is doing everything for them that it needs to do, so that they can worry about the other things.
Speaker 1 00:02:43 I love that. That's, that's so well said and such an important vision. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:02:48 Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:02:50 We talked about this in the pre-show, and you know, how much do you care is the question that came to my mind, and it's based a little bit on my own personal experience, because I've been told personally and repeatedly, if you cared less, this would be a lot easier. Yes. But I, you know, as Tim was joking, as much as I try personally to put a facade on it and actually not care, the more I try to put a facade on it, the more it actually hurts me mentally and emotionally, because what that facade is, is a protection strategy from looking at the externalities of a world that I am complicit in supporting or creating. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Right? So how do you take care of yourself if you care too much, and what do you do with your life and career if you care too much? That, that's what I would love to get your read on Lindsay.
Speaker 3 00:03:53 Yeah. I, uh, gosh, I've been to so much therapy. Let me just tell you, <laugh>, like I, I'm just gonna start with this. Like the, Yes. So I, I care deeply. I care deeply. So one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about supporting like queer, bi women entrepreneurs is because I didn't know really how difficult that was until I was one of those, right? Like, then that it was like, that was that the, the every single day around here is another day in learning about privilege and access and opportunity. And so, um, so part, part of what makes it okay is boundaries. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I understand what I can and cannot control and what I can and cannot impact from myself and the people I love and my clients in the world. And part of it is I get to sleep at night now knowing that I know what is my fight, right?
Speaker 3 00:04:59 Like, RO gets overturned and I'm pissed about it. I'm not gonna pretend like I don't care, but me going out and turning into a a like ProHealth care activist is not the best use of me. So I get to let go of that. Like, uh, being an anti-gun activist is not the best use of me. I have money, I have other resources that I can share with those people. It's their fight and I'm gonna support them, Right? Just like to, like a super niche example, but I'm lucky to have a lot of clients in Hawaii, right? So, and, and indigenous clients,
Speaker 2 00:05:34 That's an
Speaker 3 00:05:35 Education awesome people. Yeah. And so over the last year of getting to go there and work with them on site and whatever, I have, I, I struggle with this. I'm like, it's not my role to be a Hawaiian nationalist, but I support my friends and clients in that fight. And so it makes it okay for me to care about these things that are outside of my control. It makes it okay for me to care about these things that are really overwhelming cuz I know what I can contribute. Just tiny little pieces of opportunity and justice and clarity and strength. Like marketing is just a hammer. I don't give a fuck about marketing. Sorry, I don't remember if we, we didn't talk about swearing, like,
Speaker 2 00:06:20 Don't
Speaker 1 00:06:21 Care about marketing.
Speaker 2 00:06:21 We didn't care. We can totally and curse on this. It's
Speaker 3 00:06:24 Just, okay, great.
Speaker 2 00:06:24 Apple has this rated as explicit. It's like, thank you you apple.
Speaker 3 00:06:29 Excellent. Yes. So I, so that's not what's important to me, right? What's important to me is what the world could be like if the right marketing were available to these individuals who are either through their business model or through their own success generating sustainability, access, equity, justice,
Speaker 2 00:06:49 Whatever. Yeah. Okay. One follow up on that. Okay. Because there's a phrase that you used and that is, if the right marketing were available, Yes, I'm gonna contextualize this in some of my own kind of struggles, but also some of my own observations. And that is, I, you know, I fight with the kids all the time about how much screen time they have because I'm like, you don't understand when, when people were creating video games in 1978, it was because you could do this cool shit with eight bits, Right? That was the whole purpose was I wanna do some cool shit with eight bits.
Speaker 3 00:07:29 We just got an emulator at our house, <laugh> emulator, some good a thousand games.
Speaker 2 00:07:35 There's like,
Speaker 1 00:07:37 Are are you playing joust? I love,
Speaker 3 00:07:40 My partner loves Joust. <laugh>. Yeah. My partner loves Jot, but we we're very much a Mario Brothers family. Oh, we, like, we cycle through and sorry,
Speaker 2 00:07:50 I've got like 600 emulators on my Mac and a bunch of boot leg ROMs. I'm totally right there with you. Yeah, right. But like,
Speaker 3 00:07:56 So
Speaker 2 00:07:57 You know, the difference is people figured out really quickly how to sell that differently and then they put teams of psychologists behind it to understand how your brain responds to what's happening in game. And now, every single game that I have ever seen, you know, Youngling play in particular, it's all around addicting you to the game. And that is just not where we started in that industry. Right? So that's one kind of piece of the context. And the other piece of the context is frankly, like I've been in the software industry selling software to nonprofits for too long. Like, you know, it's given me enough gray hair that I'm like, okay, you know, that's just the way it is. But, you know, going back to something that we were, were talking about right before we hit record, and that is vision selling and vision marketing, right? Like, you're actually not addressing root causes here, you know? Right. You're, you're giving people stuffed animals and golden hoodies and like mascots and woodland creature experiences to make them feel good about their association with you and make a feelings based decision rather than a grounded decision. Like do are, are you just, you know, so what is the right kind of marketing? Because that shit's horrifying to me.
Speaker 3 00:09:24 It is, Yes. What marketing can be used for. Yeah. And this is another, another reason of how, how and why I became an entrepreneur, Right? Because it became important to me to recognize that I would not be able to do good work in trying to grow a business that I did not believe in. Right? So like, I just, I am not somebody who can do that. Uh, my life would be a lot easier if I was, but I'm not. And so I, so that's part of how when I started my marketing agency in 2015, it was very much motivated by I wanna be able to pick my own clients. Like that was a big part of it. Then, um, I dunno, Tracy, you just opened up this whole world, like, do you wanna talk about capitalism? Do you wanna talk about how exploitative this idea of like professional versus personal?
Speaker 3 00:10:15 It, like, I feel like that you, you like poked at all of these things. And I, I hate to be like, I will use a phrase borrowed from like the tech bros, which is like marketing tech bros. Tool marketing is a tool. Yeah. You can use it to make the world a better place or you can use it not to, you know. And so I don't like exploitation, manipulation, lying, like, these things are not necessary for good marketing. They're not needed. They are the tools of bad marketing. In fact, like that's what I would argue is that really good marketing, It just, it centers your audience. It's empathetic. It looks very carefully at who are they, what do they care about? And if our offering is in fact the right thing to help them, then you don't need to sell it. You just need to make it available to them. That's it. Right. And then be smart about what are the channels you're using to make it available. And, you know, let's, efficiency is super important when you're underfunded or under-resourced. But, um, but yeah, I like, I know there's a lot of terrible stuff out there and like, don't get me started on the social media algorithms and like all this, you know, like Google Ex Google and Facebook now are like exploiting small businesses to pay for their Yes,
Speaker 2 00:11:34 That's
Speaker 3 00:11:34 Right. You know, like, that's right. That's like the, the, the, the idea that it's like the first one's free, right? We're gonna give you $250 of free advertising to show you how easy it is, and that $250 is going to bring you five leads, and then the next $250 you spend will bring you zero leads. And we're just gonna keep you, keep getting you hooked like that. Like, it's absurd to run a business by telling somebody who is running a business how easy it is to adopt somebody else's profession and be successful at it. Like there are media buyers and advertisers that spend their entire career learning how to write headline copy and craft a message and target that message. And like, I respect those people who do it well and for good reason, right? Like that's, that is a necessary part of the whole ecosystem.
Speaker 3 00:12:23 But telling a small business owner that that's the best use of their time is actually exploitative in my, in my view. You know? And so I think the opportunity to take advantage of folks, this is another reason why, you know, my clients are always, one of the things I hear them say all the time is that I'm just so like the, the no nonsense version of marketing, right? It's like we're not gonna screw around. We don't need to, It doesn't need to be fancy. It doesn't need to be like, we don't need to like, you know, do do a whole bunch of, of back flips or whatever to make this thing work. Just remember how you are as a human in the world. How much attention do you pay to the emails that come into your inbox? How much attention do you pay to the content that goes through your newsfeed? And then how can we, knowing, knowing that that's how people engage with these things, how can we still make our offer in a way that is impactful and connects and those things?
Speaker 1 00:13:24 Well, that's something
Speaker 2 00:13:25 That, that's amazing. Thank you.
Speaker 1 00:13:26 Something that you said, Tracy, that I think is really important to know is that people have always made decisions based on emotions. And it, it's a conversation I was just having with Alex, my daughter, about rational and logic. And I think that there's a modern idea that rational and logic flow equally, or that they're the same thing. Rational just means making decisions where the benefits outweigh the costs, right? And the decisions that humans make are almost entirely emotional, not logical. And that is rational, right? If you emotionally believe that something, you know, if the benefits outweigh the costs and, and the mechanism that gets you there is emotions, not logic that's just as rational. And so I think that it's, I I feel like part of what I like about what you're saying so much Lindsay, is you're saying, Hey, we need to actually appeal to how people behave, but we need to do that with integrity. And I think there's a false dichotomy here, which is if you're using emotions that's somehow negative in marketing, and it's not, it's actually that's where you're tapping into what people care about. That's tapping into that Absolutely. The power of,
Speaker 2 00:14:49 But if you're obfuscating the truth
Speaker 1 00:14:51 Yeah. If you're lying, sure. You know, we're all gonna agree that if you're, if you're behaving badly and manipulating, that's bad, right? Sure. No, no
Speaker 2 00:14:59 Question. You're off, you skating the truth. And if you're creating addiction mechanisms, and, and frankly, if you are supporting what I call in my own, like this is my own shorthand for it, you know, but that new libertarianism, which is very different from the kind of libertarianism that I believe in and grew up understanding, right? You know, my version, my personal version of libertarianism and that I live by is my, my liberty ends where yours begins. So that's why I don't burn leaves in my backyard because the externality of that is too big, right? The new libertarianism. And I think this gets to some of the things we've lived through in the past few years in terms of isolation and fear. But this new libertarianism is like, I'm gonna do what I want. That's
Speaker 3 00:15:56 Right. Entitlement.
Speaker 2 00:15:57 It's freaking special. That's right. And you know, the world has shaped itself to that sentiment and it's actually driving us further apart, you know? And when I see companies in aggregate in the tech industry take advantage of that in a way that I'm like, you are, you, you think you're doing a good thing and the only thing that you're doing is dividing us further by showing us how very special we are if we just do nothing but think of ourselves. That's where I get concerned
Speaker 3 00:16:37 Generating wealth for our shareholders. Don't forget that, that's
Speaker 2 00:16:40 Nothing. I mean, Dla d Laha,
Speaker 3 00:16:42 I'm, I mean this is, I've
Speaker 2 00:16:44 Been a few of those parties.
Speaker 3 00:16:46 It's, I feel really, this is my whole career. I've been a little bit uneasy with what I do, right? Like, I, like we were talking earlier about, you know, the, the amazing, uh, experience I had working for a serial entrepreneur when we were essentially content farmers. I didn't have seo, I didn't put search engine optimization on my resume for years. I was hired into marketing agencies. And then they were like, Wait, you have this skill set too. Because I was like, No, what's, if we are, if I, especially back then, a good SEO is bad for the user <laugh>, they makes the user experience worse. And so I did not want to continue to contribute to that. I had those skills, but I didn't wanna continue to do it. And so I think that that's the of I, So I've always,
Speaker 1 00:17:34 You still think that that's super interesting. Can you say, I, I connect, I
Speaker 2 00:17:39 Totally agree with you on that, by the
Speaker 1 00:17:40 Way. I don't know, I don't know enough about what you're saying to even know if I disagree or, or or agree. But what, how does SEO make it bad for the user?
Speaker 3 00:17:48 Go with me to 2007, if you will. Right? In 2007,
Speaker 1 00:17:55 Remembering my titanium Mac book, whatever, you know,
Speaker 3 00:18:00 You wanna, you wanna,
Speaker 2 00:18:01 I really wanted a MacBook G4 or G five.
Speaker 3 00:18:07 Oh yes, we all did. Only the boss got one of those <laugh>. So, so back then, if you had any kind of like consumer question, right? Like how should I compare flat screen TVs or like how can I start a new running, um, you know, whatever, like the internet was still relatively new on these things. And so what would happen is, and we did it even in, in 2005, 2006, we were, I was even doing click arbitrage on AdWords. So we would pay Google, I would write an ad campaign that would pay Google 2 cents to send somebody to our website, and then they would click on, on an ad on our website and we get paid 3 cents when they left. And a penny at a time, if you do it enough times can make you a whole lot of money and so and so. But was that a good experience for the user?
Speaker 2 00:19:05 You've also just described Doge coin <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:19:08 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And so this is so, like, so, so for a lot of different versions of that, like that's what Yahoo answers now is the last living vestige really of that con that moment in time on the, on the internet. But it didn't feel good about it because I didn't make anybody, I didn't get anybody closer to buying the TV they were shopping for, Right? All I did was distract them, like take some ad money and, and you know, collect some ad revenue and that was, that was the job. So it wasn't until Google sort of got their act together in the late odds, right? Oh nine 10 with some algorithm updates that it started to be easier for me to say, what's good for the search engine is good for the user and you're no longer being asked to make a choice between who you serve with your content. Gotcha. Um, and I believe that
Speaker 2 00:20:02 Now you're also scratching on something that is a personal vendetta in my work, <laugh>. No, you really are. It's, I very rarely know on Vendettas anymore, but I have a vendetta about sports validity in our world. Um, and you know, backing this up a little bit, like I was a classically trained researcher, like my major in college was Russian,
Speaker 3 00:20:25 Oh,
Speaker 2 00:20:26 Sorry. In studies. I can bang out a 60 page paper, you know, overnight if I need to. On God,
Speaker 3 00:20:33 The internet is not a safe place for you though. No. Like,
Speaker 2 00:20:36 I'm, it's, sorry, <laugh>. Yeah. So like I look at things from the lens of like, who are you citing, where are you looking at for that information and what is the reputational and the functional use of your sources, right? So, you know, I don't what you're doing this
Speaker 3 00:20:58 On the internet. Yeah, I know. I'm so sorry. It's just better not to, It
Speaker 2 00:21:04 Is because like,
Speaker 3 00:21:05 It's just, it's,
Speaker 2 00:21:06 I can't even, like, there are three things left on the internet that I like actually participate in. I participate in Consumer Reports cuz I knew them for a long time Sure. And I knew people that worked there and I, I love them deeply. I participate in LinkedIn and I only feel good about that because I pay for it somehow that makes it feel okay in my mind. Okay. And I look at Wikipedia and I don't look at Wikipedia for anything political anymore because even that's turning into a shit show. I only look at it for scientific and pop culture stuff, you know, and I'm waiting for the day that somebody develops the Hitchhiker's guide interface for it.
Speaker 3 00:21:47 <laugh> found that.
Speaker 2 00:21:48 Yes. I think what you're touching on is really important. And that is, if you take it back to the folks who are gonna be listening to this podcast, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, nonprofit people, executives and so forth, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you really do have two choices. You can be a source of truth and validity or you can be a source of chat distraction. And either one of those can make revenue. It's just how you wanna go about that and the timeline you wanna choose on it. And right now, we, and I say this as somebody who loves my day job, who loves the people I work with, but is still indubitably frustrated by the structures in which my job operates. Because 10 times outta 10, 11 times outta 10, we're gonna go fast, cheap, and easy to, to maximize return on investment. And that still detracts from the world around me that I care too deeply about. Right?
Speaker 3 00:22:49 Absolutely. I
Speaker 2 00:22:50 Mean, I, and I mean, you know,
Speaker 3 00:22:52 The thing that, the thing <laugh> the thing that, that like, to bring it back to my, my approach to marketing, the thing that you said that I think is so fascinating, is this like fast, cheap and easy? Is it, I guess that means something different to lots of different people. But the thing that always, that always resonates with my clients is when we look at their, at the plan that we're creating and I let them off the hook, and I'm like, guess what? You don't have to do anymore. You don't have to be on Facebook and you don't have to be on Instagram. And let's talk about the frequency with which you are reaching your audiences on what platform. Like letting, knocking it down to the essential touchpoints and making sure that when you're active on those touchpoints, they are as impactful as possible because you've thought them through and whatever the quick, cheap and easy way of advertising and marketing is actually really expensive because it doesn't have that kind of really intentional, thoughtful, like, who are you, where are they?
Speaker 3 00:23:57 What do they care about? How do we resonate with them? It's just, let's put our message out there, right? If you like, do it, get it, get it out there often enough. Eventually somebody's gonna buy your shit. And that is, that is not an opportunity that my clients have. So, and that's the, the main tension, right? Is like they see the marketing that is modeled for them in the world and they think they have to do that and they, Right. And they're, and there's all kinds of, you know, many of my clients are women. So on top of that, they're shooting on themselves about what the world expects to see from them and all that kind of garbage. And then it turns out, if you just take it down a notch and be like, think about this human person, think about how, what, what they need, why your offer is the right thing to connect with them and like make it like smaller and more simple is actually way less effort, right? It's just not the way we think about these things. And so it feels, it feels like magic, but it's really not
Speaker 1 00:24:54 <laugh>. Lindsay, I know that you, um, I, I really loved your podcast with We are for Good and I love how you break it down into here is the no nonsense one day. Like let's make a plan and connect it to, you know. Um, but I also know that you are thinking more about the long term than you used to. I'd love to know kind of what's the connection there, because that's like, one day to long term is a really interesting stretch. Where where's that going for you?
Speaker 3 00:25:30 How's that work? Yeah, so I, um, I'll tell you one of the, one of the things as an entrepreneur, the thing I'm focused on, like my, my subconscious is all the time in this place where I am super committed to what I am doing, even when it's not easy, right? Like I know this thing I am offering is useful and I'm, and I'm really passionate about it. And also I need to have an open mind and be flexible and listen when my clients and my customers tell me what they need or what they want. And I feel like the, the entrepreneurs that are able to healthily balance those two things are the ones that really get to build something awesome. So like, that's what I'm trying to do. And uh, what I'm hearing is that my offering really needs to scale. So instead of selling to one nonprofit, what I am instead hearing is that like a foundation wants my marketing framework in all of their sponsored projects.
Speaker 3 00:26:30 And so how do we do that? So it's like I'm looking at if you or your listeners are familiar with the business model canvas, right? That's like the go-to gold standard for anybody seeking funding of any kind to be like, this is, we've thought it all through investors and partners and everybody are gonna ask for that, right? In the same way my open lines marketing framework can create a common language and a shared understanding of your most efficient marketing strategy. And so, so I want, so, so we are, I don't know, I don't know how to get from here to there <laugh>, but I do know that the opportunity to help a whole bunch of purpose driven organizations and people get access to resources, either their customers, their clients, funding, investment, whatever it is, because they have a strategic and well-informed marketing plan that's really valuable. And I, so I don't know what it looks like to make open lines be the marketing version of the business model canvas, but that, that's the future that I see and that's the legacy business that I wanna build.
Speaker 1 00:27:41 Yeah, that makes so much sense. And um, that's <laugh> that's very familiar. It's to don't you just erritory thing's
Speaker 2 00:27:48 To don't, you just need to buy a bunch of Google ad space and market the hell out of
Speaker 3 00:27:52 It. <laugh>. Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's
Speaker 1 00:27:54 <laugh> <laugh> no kidding, dear your point. <laugh>, That's
Speaker 3 00:28:02 The problem. I know. That's the problem. Oh,
Speaker 2 00:28:07 That was funny. Sorry. Once in a while I get a good one in
Speaker 3 00:28:10 It's, but it, it's, I mean, I don't know how to get from here to there, right? And so part of the questions I'm asking is do I need to myself fundraise now in order to build a software product in order to train a team in this thing that I do? Like where is the, where I, I don't know, but I am, I am I, I'll tell you, I know who my competitors are, I know who I'm looking at, right? For like, how did they do it? And so, um, that, you know, that's the first place I'm gonna look. After that it'll be sharing my vision with a trusted group of professional, uh, and personal supporters and then let them, let them inform as well. And then, like, like I said, like you only have to know the next right step. I have no idea how I'm gonna get there, but I know what the next three months of my life look like. So that's good enough.
Speaker 1 00:29:05 Over the last three years I did something really similar in the tech implementation space, which is, this is broken, how do we think about this differently? And yeah. Um, and something that you said caught my attention, which is there's a, there's this spectrum of listen to your customers and like make sure you are deliver like your language. Doesn't matter. What matters is what they're saying that's on one end. And at the other end is, you know, Henry Ford saying if I asked my customers what they wanted, they'd say a faster horse, right?
Speaker 3 00:29:41 Oh yes.
Speaker 1 00:29:42 And so, um, I've spent three years in this space of invention, which is not innovation of, you know, a faster horse is innovating, invention is a car, right? A replacement technology. And so I've been, I think inventing instead of innovating and that is a different, like, that's on a different end of the spectrum and you also cannot ignore customers at the same time. So I think, uh, you know, thinking about your issue and then thinking about how you make it meta like oh yeah, you know, and then meta one more time if you're working with philanthropy on that as well. Think
Speaker 3 00:30:23 That's
Speaker 1 00:30:24 Thing that's really interesting. Yeah, no, I think it's really interesting and it, it feels familiar and you're right, if you know the next step, that's kind of what you
Speaker 3 00:30:32 Know, that's okay. Yeah. I'm so glad that you use that quote though, cuz I use it with my clients all the time. So because I don't, I would, I don't do this and I don't recommend that my clients do this, that, that whole idea of like, ask your customers no, because they don't know what they want. But if you observe your customers and pay attention to what they say, pay attention to how they behave and how they engage if you observe them and then hold a mirror up to them and say, I think so, so this is like my process, right? Is this like really deeply empathetic? Like, uh, we do the customer journey in a way that I've never seen anybody else do it. Um, really very specifically capturing your audience's own words, right? I care about this, I'm scared about this, I'm worried about this.
Speaker 3 00:31:24 I'm trying to write like those types of phrases. Um, so, so you do that exercise and then you hold it up in front of them and you say, I was trying to capture what is important to you. How well did I do that right? And let them respond to that. And that is, to me it's because you're right, people don't know what they want. They don't read, they don't know what they want. That's, these are things that make marketing really hard, but if you observe them and pay attention to their behavior, then you really can sort of get those insights that you need. Well, and I found,
Speaker 1 00:32:02 I found similar, that is really interesting advice and thank you for like backing up an instinct I've had and have not had the language for. So that, that's really helpful. But, um, when you are inventing actually like putting something together, I feel like that needs to flow from your background and expertise, the stuff that you know, and the work that you've done with, um, hundreds if not thousands of clients, right? But when, and I did that and built something pretty quickly in a year, and when I went to explain it, it would take me 15 minutes and not match anything, right? So like in terms of the spectrum building, it is on the Henry Ford end of things, learning how to say it so that your mom understands it is at the customer end of right. So I feel like that there is a time for both of those. So I'm, I'm really curious what your process is gonna look like. I'm not,
Speaker 2 00:32:57 I wanna connect this to something though. Um, three things scale, Saul Linsky and, um, no, I'm, I'm so like there for this and, and a conversation we had with Billy Beckett earlier this year on this podcast. And here's, here's the dots that I think are interesting because I personally have been benefit of working with a lot of founders. And what I think is super interesting is that at some point scale becomes a toxic word and it becomes toxic. Because what these founders have all identified, and, and I would rope you both into this same category, is you've actually identified a discrete need. You've actually identified a methodology or a service or a platform or a application that meets a discrete need. And the problem is, is that the externality in which a lot of these, you know, people work is this externality of crap. Now I gotta put a business behind this.
Speaker 2 00:34:08 Now I have to employ people behind this. And suddenly you're working in a context that imposes a lot of artificial externality on your vision and on the audience that your vision was designed to address mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when you get into that cycle, and, and this is, you know, like, you know, I will, I'm a little bit involved here with the city of Livermore and I say all the time like, the last thing you want to do is put more taxes, fees, and obstacles to small business people trying to just get a leg up because there's enough already. So scale is a very toxic word in my mind because what it means is that you've suddenly realized that that thing that actually meets a discreet purpose can't continue to exist unless it changes. And I've talked to enough founders on the other side of that journey who are like, man, the thing that I started and the thing that this is are not the same thing, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's the problem with scale as a word now. And, and this is where Billy and some of his conversation went, and frankly, some of the work that Tech Soup is doing with Makers, and that is, you know, let's reimagine the model so that we can have many more small scale things that meet very discreet needs, but can still kind of in that meta way that Tim was just talking about scale. But that's super hard too because it requires economic inputs that will sustain the apparatus in which those things exist, right? So
Speaker 2 00:35:47 You knowest I turn this into a trius on American entrepreneurship <laugh>. Um,
Speaker 2 00:35:53 What I wanted to do also is connect this back to something that was even part of my grad school training and that is, you know, Linsky organizing 1 0 1 said, you go to the community, you listen to the community and you reflect back to the community their needs and their priorities, and that's what shapes your action. And I think it's truly interesting that you're essentially doing that same model of community organizing, that we all kind of have greater and lesser impressions of that was developed in the sixties and it still works. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's what's interesting to me. And I think we forget that because of the toxicity of the word scale. You know, like you don't go to wherever Linsky was. You don't go to like lower East side New York or, or South side Chicago and say your needs are identical to those in southern Illinois or upstate New York and we're just gonna scale it, right? You know, you work with where you are.
Speaker 3 00:36:54 And I think part of, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna project some things on you Tracy, because working in tech wouldn't be the first time I'm just working in tech in the Bay area does imbue scaling with a very specific kind of toxicity, right? Like that unicorn is garbage. I'll like do a quick plug for the zebra's unite co-op. If you don't know any, if you guys have not talked about or to the zebra's unite, you should really know them. So this is a community of folks that is really passionate about ethical, uh, just and sustainable investment in businesses that support a healthy communities, healthy teams. They're looking for like, it's like a zebra is set up as the opposite of a unicorn, right? Got it. So a zebra, it's
Speaker 2 00:37:49 Not just a horse with painted stripes,
Speaker 3 00:37:51 It's the zebra is they're looking for like two x returns and they're looking to fund black women, right? There's like all kinds of like ways in which the zeros unite, uh, movement is really, really important. And very specifically anti that kind of predatory scaling that happens specifically in tech in the, in the Bay. I mean, I think it happens in tech everywhere, but so I hear that at also the, one of the things that makes my framework really sort of specific and I think scalable, dare I say, is that it's been tested in a bunch of different contexts. Like I was talking earlier about my Hawaiian clients, right? So it is, I know there's no such, I was an anthropology degree. I know there's no such thing as culturally neutral. I understand that. Yes. Also, yes,
Speaker 3 00:38:51 It's just a framework and the framework works because it's your audiences and your offering being pulled into it. And so if you understand your audiences correctly and your offering is in fact something that they need, then I, it doesn't matter if you're in the south side of Chicago or if you're in Honolulu or somewhere else because it all, it, it's just organizing your information in a way that makes actionable. That's, that's all we're doing. And so yes, the fact of organizing, yes, sure I am who I am, I'm from where I'm from, but it's a very useful tool and anybody can use it. And so that does, I think the, that's the other thing about this is that like, yeah, what I want is more entrepreneurs more effective and more empowered in their journeys. I want more nonprofits to stop wasting time building consensus between programs and communications instead of just getting their shit together. And
Speaker 2 00:39:50 Clearly we've hit a thing.
Speaker 3 00:39:55 There is this thing can scale because it is, uh, it's like scaling the electrical grid. Everybody has use for it.
Speaker 2 00:40:03 I love that reframing. I I love that reframing because it, you're right, and I use the electrical grid analogy a lot actually in my work because, you know, when we talk about electricity, up until the thirties, it was kind of hyper local, you know, and you even had electrical companies competing with each other delivering different voltages and different line types and, and craziness. Can you
Speaker 3 00:40:31 Imagine? That's awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:40:32 Yeah. Like can you imagine like, it's bad enough when I fly to other countries and they have like the 48 prong plugs, but like Yeah, yeah. <laugh>, can you imagine like what it would be like if I went from New York where it was like, you know, 48 volt DC current to like LA where it's 110 volt ac to like Chicago where it was like, you know, a hundred volt DC right? Like,
Speaker 3 00:40:57 It's like the old days of a mobile phone where you would like jump onto a different network when you got
Speaker 2 00:41:01 Off. Oh my gosh, right? You know, and suddenly your bill would go from like $20 a month to like 170 because nobody could roaming, roaming, roaming. Oh gosh. You know, God. So I love that reframing because you're right. Like I will wholly admit that I'm a product of my context, and that is 25 years in the Bay area tech industry, like that word has a very specific meaning. And the danger of that word is allowing it to apply to things where it really shouldn't, you know? Or, or the dominant apply Baggage is so big, right? Yeah. The dominant narrative on it is so big. So that makes a lot of sense. That's a great reframing.
Speaker 3 00:41:46 Thanks. I'll try not to get mad at non-profits again. I know those are
Speaker 2 00:41:50 No, it's fine.
Speaker 3 00:41:51 I mean, they're my people too. It's just <laugh>.
Speaker 1 00:41:53 Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 00:41:55 Waste really infuriates me and, and like waste of all kinds. Like, you know, I said on the, on the We for good podcast too. Like only bad marketing is overhead, right? If the marketing isn't doing the job, it, it's not marketing's fault. It's that you are under-resourced and pointed in the wrong direction. You know?
Speaker 1 00:42:15 That's such a great framing. I have not heard that before, but I, I really like that. It's really, Lindsay, if there's, um, if there is like one thing that you want listeners to take away from the work that you do and the, the the thing that they're passionate about, what would, what would that one thing be?
Speaker 3 00:42:41 Can I tell you a little metaphor? I'll tell you metaphor. This is the thing I want to stick with everybody. So because of this, I'm gonna just, I'm a marketing teacher now, so I'm gonna teach marketing. So, um, if you've ever been to a Japanese garden, there's, they're incredibly thoughtfully designed, right? Really intentional, really intent. This is one of the ways I love intentionally crafted experiences. I love Disneyland for that reason, right? Like, just anything that is like
Speaker 2 00:43:10 That you gotta go to Meow Wolf. Then I
Speaker 3 00:43:12 Have been,
Speaker 2 00:43:13 Went
Speaker 3 00:43:14 To Meow Wolf in Denver. Yeah. I,
Speaker 2 00:43:16 Yeah, okay. I was there. Ok. We went to the one in, uh, Albuquerque. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 00:43:20 Yep. Exactly. So, so I love that. Um, and, and the Japanese garden is a very, a very peaceful, um, healing sort of version of that kind of thoughtfulness. Um, very different than mewa ps, but <laugh>. Um, but the, um, the, one of the things that I learned the first time I was there, so you're walking through it, the pathways are like big and broad and flat and geometric, right? It's like pour concrete or, or mild stone or maybe you're over water. And so there's like big pan, big wood planks, right? And then there are these very specific moments where that all changes and you get rough un stepping stones and they'll be different sizes and different shapes and different elevations. They're almost always going up or going down a hill. And the point of this thing is actually to force you to keep your eyes on your feet so that you don't fall over.
Speaker 3 00:44:21 Like it's literally, we're gonna make this hard for you to navigate this path so that when you get to the end and you raise your eyes, there's this incredible view and it was there the whole time. You just didn't see it because your eyes were on your feet. And this is, this to me is the metaphor for marketing. If we as marketers are really thoughtful about our audiences, what they need, what they care about, and where on the internet or in their lives they are, when they are pursuing those answers, we can lay out stepping stones for them. They will walk that path just taking it for granted that they are meeting their own needs, they are solving their own problems. And we are the ones that have thoughtfully addressed where we know where they're going. Cuz we've been there before. Cuz we are deeply empathetic and committed to our work, right?
Speaker 3 00:45:12 So, so we can lay those stepping stones so that when they get to the end of the path, they raise their eyes. We are the easy and obvious choice, right? Because we have guided them through this journey. And so that is, that's how I want to want everybody to think about their marketing. Like how can we put smart, intentional, really, really direct calls to action, one in front of another paired with empathetic advice and support and good marketing is service, right? We should be serving them on their journey to satisfying this need, solving this problem, whatever it is. Um,
Speaker 1 00:45:55 I love it.
Speaker 3 00:45:56 No matter. No matter what.
Speaker 1 00:45:57 Yeah. So that's such a great image and it is. Um, yeah. I really, really appreciate that.
Speaker 2 00:46:03 Thank you. It's also very evocative of, you know, the tripping stones in, in Europe, right? Where it's like these are intentionally raised so that you have to trip on them mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that you remember what it was that you came there for in the first place. Yeah. And why this moment was important, you know? Yeah. And that is, you know, it's very evocative of some of the things that are super close to my heart. And that is, you know, do what you want, but do if you want for a purpose. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know?
Speaker 3 00:46:42 Yeah. So thank you. Yeah. Just be, be intentional. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:46:48 Lindsay, thank you for that.
Speaker 3 00:46:49 Hey, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:51 This is Tracy Croak.
Speaker 4 00:46:53 And I'm Tim Lockey.
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