Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. My name's Tracy crown Zack I'm director of innovation here at now. It matters joined always by my co-host Tim Lockie.
Speaker 0 00:00:18 Hi, thanks for joining.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 Wow.
Speaker 0 00:00:22 That's all. I'm doing weird. And no,
Speaker 1 00:00:28 No, but wow. Okay. But you just thanked me for,
Speaker 0 00:00:33 I want, I was thinking I listeners for joining. Oh, I was saying, thanks for joining me as then the people listening.
Speaker 1 00:00:40 Okay. Then you were missing a word. It was like, hi, thanks for joining us because you looked right at me and then you were like, hi, thanks for joining. I was like, no, no, that's your intro.
Speaker 0 00:00:51 Thank you for joining Tracy and Cheryl and all of our other listeners. Um,
Speaker 1 00:00:57 Thank you. I know that's. What is it over nuanced, a sidebar for all our listeners. Today's the day after I've gotten my third COVID vaccination. My left arm is in so much pain. It's ridiculous. So you're going to get some good gems out of me today. I think, um, uh, I am so pleased to introduce our guests today. Uh, I've had the privilege of association and working and friendship and commiseration and mentorship, and uh, so many amazing stories with her. Uh, it is my honor and joy to welcome Cheryl Poro to our show today.
Speaker 2 00:01:42 Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And it's so funny, Tracy, because as you were talking, I couldn't help, but remember where, you know, I knew you from events and whatnot, but what had happened was we were walking down 24th street one morning and discovered we were neighbors. We were right. And then to do our fils at 24th and Folsom meetups and whatever happened at feels stayed and fills. And that's where it all began. So
Speaker 0 00:02:15 That's back when Phil was still working at Phil's? Yes.
Speaker 2 00:02:19 I would still see Phil and Phil.
Speaker 0 00:02:22 Phil was like the James Bond of the, of the mission district. He was just so cool with it, the Dora
Speaker 1 00:02:31 And he had, okay. So first of all they had, this is Phil's at the corner of 24th and mission in San Francisco, Cheryl Folsom, Folsom, sorry. It was one over a 24th and Folsom in San Francisco, Cheryl and I each lived on opposite sides of Bernal hill, uh, for a good long while I, I moved there in early 2014, I think. And Phil's coffee, like that particular one either the first or second one that they had ever,
Speaker 0 00:03:02 It was the original. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:03:03 Yeah. And they had all this crazy wall art that had fill on it and they had this entire off menu drink selection. And I still have somewhere buried deep in my Evernote, all of the off menu drinks I could order. So I would like, I, you know, everybody else would be like, oh, can I get a latte? And I'd be like, oh no, wait a minute, hold on. I, can I get a crazy horse with shots and a little bit of extra milk and they'd be like, oh yeah, sure, no problem. And people will be like, what'd you just order? And I'll be like, Hmm. Something so, so good.
Speaker 2 00:03:39 And I very fun memories of those times, But now I think my job is to talk a little bit about who I am. Right.
Speaker 1 00:03:47 Tell us who you are besides that person that would meet up with Tracy had Phil's on a fairly regular basis.
Speaker 2 00:03:55 Let's see. Who am I? So aside from being a technologist, which I am, I am also a San Franciscan, uh, didn't originate here. I originated outside of Boston and migrated west. Um, when I was young, been here for well over two decades. So definitely feel like a San Francisco and, and I'm raising a San Franciscan more importantly. So yes, yes, yes. And it's so exciting to have raising a 14 year old in San Francisco. Who's, you know, who now can like take muni on around and just basically the city is her playground, which was a very different experience than I had. I grew up in the burbs, um, and was always bored. So that is not an issue for my daughter. Uh, so yeah, technologists, um, city dweller, nature, lover, mom, I'm constantly trying to win the mom of the year award. So that's my goal. Every like every day I want to get mom of the year award. So, you know, my daughter gets home. I would have already crafted a snack for her that, you know, like maybe a matcha chia pudding, something like that. You know, I know
Speaker 1 00:05:02 It does mean that these photos occasionally wind up on the social media. It's true.
Speaker 2 00:05:10 And then, um, yeah, so that's just me and, you know, uh, throughout my career, I've been in tech for, like I said, a couple of decades and I worked at companies like Amazon. I worked at, uh, companies like Salesforce spent 13 years there and I'm currently at a company called curve health.
Speaker 0 00:05:30 Yeah. Thanks. Uh, thanks for the introduction. Thanks for joining us. Um, I, I think the last time that you and I spoke was in Tahoe at Tahoe, Dremon Atara G-Man event either right after we had gone skiing or before something like that. Um, and so you were at Salesforce at that point and then I, I, and I think others would love to know what has, what has transpired then and now at curve health.
Speaker 2 00:06:02 Fantastic. I have a phone making a bunch of noise. I'm going to throw it in another room. One of my work phones, it's one of my work phones. Um, so gosh, what has, so remind me of where we're, what has transpired since Tahoe agreements
Speaker 2 00:06:23 Yes, yes. That would be it. That would be it. Um, yeah. So, uh, let's see, professionally, I definitely a lot of changes professionally since then. Uh, so probably I'm trying to think in 2018, I was probably a couple of years into my
[email protected]. So 13 years total with, uh, Salesforce, for saving the half with the company last four and a half with salesforce.org, leading product in technology for yeah. the.org. Uh, so, you know, had this amazing opportunity to work with all these amazing folks like yourselves in the, uh, in the ecosystem. And that was definitely a highlight for me during my time. Um, but you know, when it was interesting, cause as things were going, there was a little bit of this, you know, four and a half years, really essentially with the same role. Yeah. It was growing with the team or launching new products.
Speaker 2 00:07:14 We were doing all this cool stuff, but there was a little bit of like, what's next, you know? And in, in, in sometimes, you know, it's almost too good, like, oh, I get to shake it up a little bit. Like things are too good, you know, maybe it's time to shake it up or what's next or what's the challenge. And, and, um, there was, you know, I just, I started to get this little, uh, you know, it's like the openness to having the conversation. Cause I wasn't really overtly looking at that time. I had taken a sabbatical, uh, which was great. I want to take some time one summer and just spend it with my daughter while she was still young and still wanted to hang out with me. Um, and I think it was just enough of that opening. They would having that time away from the team and the ecosystem and that little bit of a voice in my head saying, you know, are you both like challenged into, are you squelching opportunity for people in your team because you won't move?
Speaker 2 00:08:08 You know, so it was, it was like a dual kind of voice in my head. Um, and I think because of all those circumstances, I was sort of right for the picking and you know, it was the right opportunity was kind of presented and I got, you know, excited about it and, and convinced to leave. So that was kind of what happened at that stage because I was having a pretty great run and, you know, I loved what I was able to do and like love my team, especially in the entire team and the people I got to work with and the ecosystem and, um, but yeah, just ended up moving. So, uh, one of the things professionally that I was sort of eager to do, having been at a company for so long was do something completely new. Right. So I had been in that Salesforce world for so long and it was like the way I would describe it was like in my veins, like I know that platform, you know, the first seven and a half years I worked on the platform, right.
Speaker 2 00:09:00 So it was just like in my, my, it was my blood basically. And I want to do something very, very different and very new. Uh, and so when I joined thrive global as their CTO, it was the opportunity to start a platform from scratch. So completely modern strap, a stack from the get-go serviced, serverless architecture, microservices based like no JS API layer react front end. Like it was what all the kids were using the time that was part of it and was like, oh, can I pull this off? I want to try to pull it off. Um, and that's what I get to do in the year that I was there. I built a team of 25. We built this platform and integrated, like we built an integration with Salesforce, definitely leverage my relationships to pull that off, ended up selling that to Salesforce, which was cool. So yeah, that thrive
Speaker 1 00:09:52 Selling that to Salesforce. I didn't realize that was at the,
Speaker 2 00:09:56 I don't know if it's yeah, yeah. There was some of the well-being platform is enabled by the thrive global platform, um, as well as to other companies too. So, you know, it was a cool experience and um, and then eventually, uh, you know, I, it wasn't, you know, I just was ready for a change. I actually took some time off. Um, and that's actually kind of pivotal important. I think of my journey because I remember at the PA at that point, there was a lot going on in my mind around like, wait a minute, what's going on here? And this was pre pandemic. So a lot of it had to do with, you know, really waking up to like climate disaster and climate change. And just realizing that like, I am living a lifestyle that is out of line with my values and it just hit me in such a palpable way at that time that literally I got to the LA, I just stopped everything.
Speaker 2 00:10:53 I stopped commuting, Rick set in half to, I was riding bikes everywhere. I was making all my own stuff. I was buying, you know, as much as I could waste free. Um, you know, I was pickling my own jalapenos, making my own deodorant, like you name it. I was doing. And I just, I felt like I needed that time to, um, do this complete 180 in my life as a reset so that I could come back to something that was more aligned, like values aligned. So it was, uh, it was an exciting time. Um, uh, and I, you know, but also a challenging time because I wasn't working and I wasn't sure about what I wanted to do next in that moment, but I needed it. Like I needed that kind of time to process everything that was going on and then the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2 00:11:42 So that was like, I've always said, I was, I felt like it was a couple of months in advance of everyone because I had already completely, you know, sort of hit a wall, um, and felt a little bit ready for it. You know, I was like, I had a lot of tools I had put in place and developed to kind of manage a lot of what was going on around my relationship to the status quo and relationship, how I was living, et cetera, that, you know, I felt kind of like ready in some ways for what happened with the pandemic. And, um, and then because of that, I actually, I was in the starting a job search, but I put that on pause was deepen with the company. And I basically had to pull out, um, in part because, you know, my daughter was zoom schooling.
Speaker 2 00:12:24 That was a lot to manage. Both. My parents got COVID, that was a lot to manage. Um, and it felt really good to just be able to support everyone and not have to like get back to work. So I delayed my search, uh, until after the summer, as things started to settle down and then I was ready. I was ready to find the next opportunity ready to find something that was really aligned with what I care about, uh, and then ended up where I'm at now, a crop health. So that was kind of, it's both a little bit of a journey that's professional and personal, and it's always intertwined for me. Like I can't separate the two life is much too complex to separate personal and professional.
Speaker 1 00:13:02 I think what's really interesting in all of that. And I remember, um, so I was kind of also in a, in a very similar position before the pandemic started. Uh, I had left Salesforce for a job that I thought was going to be something I could be at for a while. And it kind of ended in a really bad way. Uh, and folks have heard bits and pieces of that and they will continue to, uh, but the interesting part about that was, was, I literally remember having coffee with you in like February of 2019. And we were both just feeling a little strung out is what I remember. And we were like, and the world just literally got over being on fire. Cause remember we had all those days in San Francisco where it was just the orange day and then the smoke kept going and Trump and, and everything.
Speaker 1 00:13:58 And I just remember walking away being like, oh no, like if Cheryl's on the ropes then like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm doing anymore. Um, but what was really interesting was, you know, the, the, I had had another job offer ready to go on Friday the 15th or no, it was Friday the 13th of March, 2020. And I was like, great, I'm going to go ski for a week. So I went to Montana and I remember telling you that Charlotte was like, well, there's this company I'm talking to and it's looking good. So keep your fingers crossed that came through. Uh, I went skiing in Montana and at the beginning of the week, it was like, there's this weird thing happening in China. And at the end of the week, it was like the whole world is shutting down toilet paper, my toilet paper stuck up whatever.
Speaker 1 00:14:51 And the last communication I had with the woman that owned that company on Friday, the 13th was like, Hey, this looks great. Can we like adjust these couple of things in the offer letter? Sure. Writes me back right away. She's like, sure. Like, uh, I'll just send you a revision on Monday and we'll go from there. Monday came and went. And I was like, hi, we're I? Yeah. And I, I will say that this is the difference between like people with integrity and people without integrity right here. She called me up by like Wednesday of that week. And she was like, I can't predict anything anymore. And I can't make job offers. And it's not about what we just negotiated. It's about the fact that I'm not even sure I'm going to have a business in two months. Uh, and we have stayed friends since, and she's a lovely human being has now gone through her second acquisition.
Speaker 1 00:15:42 But it's funny. What I also think about that time is right after that, we all just went into this long dark tunnel. Right. And that long dark tunnel, by the way, connects to everything we were just talking about before we hit record. And that is how did we do taking care of ourselves? And what did this bring up for all of us regarding the way that we interact with the world. And I'm now finally reconnecting with folks after about 12 months or 14 months in this tunnel. But I mean, what were some of the lessons that we should be taking out of that? Because I want to use this as a segue into a lot of the things that you're currently working on now. And a lot of the things that we were talking about why you are where you are.
Speaker 2 00:16:31 Yeah, yeah, gosh, cause there's so much there, right? I mean, ultimately it's like, for me, it's all around health, the people and planet, and we can't ignore that stuff. Like if we ignore it, it's at our peril. And I remember, so just a funny little anecdote about that, those early days the pandemic was. I remember, even though I was no longer at Salesforce, I remember that Salesforce was going to have like a public sort of live session and mark was going to speak and I thought maybe he has the answers. Like someone's going to have the answers. And then, so I got on this, this session and it was very clear. He did not have the answers and he was freaking the hell out.
Speaker 1 00:17:13 I remember that he's like the world, it's the world. Like you could, mark is usually super poised and he's very scripted. And he just, you could tell where it was just like, there was no script. He was just like, I gotta say something. I've no idea what to say. So I'm just going to talk.
Speaker 2 00:17:37 Yeah, exactly. And I saw it and it was really clear to me that while there's a lot that tech can do, you know, to facilitate things, it was not getting out of this out of the, getting us out of this situation. It just wasn't an impact probably generally exacerbates the situation. Right. So that was an aha for me, as someone who's been in technology forever and really up until like the pandemic, it was like, all we were were amazing. Right. And like tech is going to save the world and then it's like, oh, and now when we need the world needs saving, oh, sorry. We can't, you know, we don't have an app for that. You know?
Speaker 1 00:18:13 Well, there is no app for saving the world. Right. Like, and it was really funny seeing Tech's response. Right. I was I'll honestly say I was a little dismayed with Salesforce's response. Cause they went immediately to like, we're going to create a new cloud and sell it to you to solve the world. And I was like, but like some other companies didn't really have any answers either. So, and then like Microsoft got into it with their employees around like working at home before they were like, oh no, everybody just works at home now, you know, Google struggled with this. So this is not like a ding against any one of them. It is to say that everybody retreated to the motion that they know best, but that motion that they know best that might've gotten them to March 13, 20, 20. Isn't what we need now.
Speaker 2 00:19:04 Absolutely. Absolutely. We're just sort of forced to rethink everything. And I do think that like all of these, um, statements that were said as like absolute truths have been proven to not be right. And so now's the opportunity, right? And that, and it's in these disruptive moments that the there's the, where the opportunity for really changing the game exists. Right. Uh, and that was a big reason, for example, why I ended up getting joining curve health re you know, which brings tele-health to specific spaces with, um, really sort of sick patient population is because it was really hard to do that pre pandemic, right? Like 2% of doctors use, tele-health like very few individuals got their, their, um, healthcare via technology. Right. And then in overnight, now it's up to 86% of doctors have done tele-health. So it just changes the game. And of course, consumers are much more comfortable having visits over, over telehealth would they didn't before.
Speaker 2 00:20:08 Uh, and that was, was drawing me. It was like, I know that what is happening now is going to be the future. And there this opportunity, because everything that might've taken a decade to evolve has just happened like that. And I do think there's other places where there are opportunities to rethink our approaches in a way that is like better for people and better for planet, but fundamentally too, because it's, um, yeah, it's tough. It's tough because we, we touched on this a little bit. There's like the profit driven growth driven agendas that can sometimes get in the way of achieving what's best for people and planet. But
Speaker 1 00:20:43 If I recall the insurance industry didn't even have a mechanism by which to adequately bill for telehealth. So that was one of the early hurdles. If I recall, it's like, well, we don't consider a doctor appointments delivered over, over video valid. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:21:00 That's very much true. And, uh, yeah, there, you couldn't sort of reimburse outside of particular settings in for Medicare. Uh tele-health. And so the company I joined had a press predecessor company that had to shut down for that very reason. And, and the founder, the founding team of that company had been, you know, on Capitol hill, they actually helped put together this, this thing called the rush act. It was reducing unnecessary senior hospitalizations. And then the government shut down was like January of 2019. So they didn't get to get it passed. But the thing that happened was as soon as the pandemic hit, like all of the thinking had been done, the infrastructure was there. They knew what they needed to do and they just kind of implemented it. Um, and then of course the, uh, what, you know, curve sort of was reborn the assets from the formal company were kind of acquired.
Speaker 2 00:21:50 And then, and then we got going. So, yeah, it's just one story I think, of many. Um, but I think about that from when I think about, you know, one of the things that was getting me as I left my role, um, that fall that I was talking about was I just remember, you know, when I would commute to the office, just seeing all these like masses of people, right? Like walking and biking and Ubering and Munising and fighting. And I'm like, where are we all going? And why, you know, like this doesn't add up or make sense to me anymore. Like so much kind of movement that is unnecessary in this day and age, but we just do it because it's like what we've always done. Right. And I didn't, all of a sudden, I was like, I don't want to do that anymore.
Speaker 2 00:22:40 I just don't want to do it. And yeah. And that was my motivation was very much like just the, the sort of environmental stuff. But then, but then when the pandemic hit, we just saw two. It's like, it's all unnecessary. And I think everyone's sort of waking up to that, like there's a time and place to get together. And I like to do that occasionally, but we don't, you know, a lot of us, at least in the work that we do as technologists, we don't need to be sitting next to each other. It's like ridiculous. Cause I know for, in my world with engineers, it's like, even if they're in the office together, they just have like three monitors, headphones on not making eye contact. And if they want to have a conversation with the colleague sitting next to them, they do a via slack.
Speaker 1 00:23:20 Yeah, that's right. Yeah, exactly. A Gallup poll where it was like, you know, because Gallup, your opinion counts, um, did definitely put that in air quotes. Um, they were actually saying like, well, what perks would you change your job for? And it was all that crap. It was like, do you want a coffee house? Do you want a gym? Do you want an onsite? Everything? And I'm like, I have a gym it's called my garage. I have a coffee house. It's called my, like, you know what a Chemex, you know? And I have like, on-site therapy, it's called my dog. You know, like I don't need to go to a workplace to replicate what I have at home. Um, tell us about, cause curve is involved explicitly at end of life care. And we were talking a lot about how that connects to technology, bringing dignity. Uh, the, the quote that you said was technology is dignity for a lot of folks connect the dots for folks in terms of how that dignity gets represented and what you're solving in end of life care and why this is important to you.
Speaker 2 00:24:35 Gosh it's so, um, when we touched on this a little bit, right. And there's so much to it because there's like the, there is the culture in which we're in, right. That avoids conversations about sickness and death. I am like absolutely guilty of that, which is partly why I'm like leaning into all of this right now, because to date to date, it ha you know, I w I don't live close to my family. I'm on the other coast when stuff goes down, I'm typically not around. Right. So I hear about it third hand, and then like, that's always worked for me. I don't want to be president.
Speaker 1 00:25:20 Oh, wow. Wish I were there. Where out in California, I'm so grateful for you.
Speaker 2 00:25:26 So sorry. And to date it's, you know, fundamentally, it's like, when I think about it, my mom, for example, was in the ICU with COVID right. For a week, thankfully got better and got out, but it became very real of like, if, if my parents were to get very sick, like typically when my mom is sick, I never hear about it until stuff's past. Like, they don't tell me anyway, and that's good. Right. Like the old me would be like, cool, thanks for not letting me know, but I don't want to, uh, God, it's like, I don't want to drop the ball. Like fundamentally I care about them a lot. They're like some of the most important people in my life. Right. And if they were to be in that place, I don't want to be absent from that. I want to be able to be there with like grace dignity, courage to face it and be present.
Speaker 2 00:26:17 So that was like the motivator for me of like leaning into getting more comfortable. So there's the culture. And absolutely. So for example, I participate in a couple of things over the past month. So one was like an IDEO hosted panel around the end of life experience. And one of the participants is this amazing, uh, uh, doctor named Clarissa is local. Actually. We're hoping to meet up in person soon, uh, who is a palliative care, you know, specialists in trains, doctors, and providers, and how to have these conversations because it's not natural. Right. It's not like if our culture is to avoid these conversations, even our doctors don't know how to have them. Right. Um, and that was like an amazing experience to be with this group of people who are looking at sort of the end of life experience from different angles. Uh, and it was a real wake up for me.
Speaker 2 00:27:14 Right. Um, just seeing that there's a lot of energy around it. And then the other thing I participated in was a conference around the use of psychedelics and end of life, again, hosted by MDs. Um, and there's a lot of research around that and how we can use psychedelics kind of ease the transition, uh, because so much of, you know, the way the system is set up. And especially in our, if you're deep in the healthcare space, it's like the fee for service world where, you know, every little thing you do to a patient you can get reimbursed for. And that incentivizes a lot of stuff. And it incentivizes a lot of things that are unnecessary and maybe not even what the patient wants. So if you combine the fact that like, we don't know what the patient's wishes are, because no one knows how to talk to them about what their wishes are, right? Like what do you really, how do you want your death? What do you want it to be like? So the way Clarissa talked about it was like, we spend so much time and energy thinking about how we want our babies to be born in like, zero about how we want our loved ones to pass, pass through right. To die. So how can, you know, in like death needs a new marketer? So basically what you would say,
Speaker 0 00:28:23 That's, you're talking about that. One of the things it makes me realize is that I think the healthcare system, I mean, I think of it this way too, is death is failure, a failure of sorts. Like we did not, we fail to keep you alive or the doctor failed. So if someone dies, someone else is at fault or something's wrong. And, and I think that that's, it's interesting to think about death, not as failure, because what that does is it means that keeping people alive, you know, is success, no matter what the cost, no matter what their preference, keeping people alive is his success. And I feel like that actually erases any conversation that's possible around it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:29:09 And that's where there's like the, where you lose that dignity. Right. Cause like how what's important is as individuals, it's like, how do you want your life? Like, what's important to you. So when you're having those discussions with a provider who's skilled in the depth that having the discussion, it's like, what's important to you. Like if you're super passionate about food and the food GB, and you get to the point where you can no longer eat, do you still value your like, life, right? Like, and these are hard things to talk about. So there's the culture, the conversations there's the Mo the infrastructure, right. That sort of doesn't support. Although there is a shift towards like what's referred to as value-based care, which definitely is more supportive of having these conversations and doing less, right. Or at least doing what's aligned with the patient's wishes.
Speaker 2 00:29:59 And how do you do that at scale? Right. Cause like, as I was saying, if you were well, you know, if you are a privilege and have a lot of resources, you can have a very, very specific kind of end of life experience. And there are lots of, um, institutions out there that can, that can help with that. Right. And it, but if you're not, you know, it can be very, very, very challenging. You can end up in, you know, in a nursing home that maybe is understaffed and maybe under supported from a MD side, you don't have the opportunity to have those conversations. And like the experience is going to be suboptimal and not dignified. Right. So that's how we are bringing technology to scale it. Right. So it's about the, um, things like tele-health like being, you know, you don't have to have a doctor, you know, in present in the building in order to have these visits.
Speaker 2 00:30:54 Um, and that saves a lot of resources and the training that comes along with it. So we have like these goals of care modules that guide our providers and have to have the conversation. So that's sort of the work that curve's doing is trying to bring that through technology to more individuals to try and bring more dignity to the end of life experience. And yes, we can save billions of dollars for the U S healthcare system of unnecessary emergency room visits and treatments and things like that, that shouldn't, that don't need to happen. Right. That don't help with patient outcome or patient experience. They're just like done, you know, if that makes sense.
Speaker 0 00:31:35 Oh, is there a concern that, um, that if you, if we got more comfortable with that conversation and if, if the goal that, you know, the goal change to value of life, is there a concern that insurance would be incentivized to see end of life happened sooner? Or, you know, w would that be a concern as well, or, um, is there so much P for service that it's actually quite the opposite?
Speaker 2 00:32:06 Yeah. I mean, at this point it's quite the opposite. I mean, it was just, so it's those kind of in the beginning and there's always, um, there's always going to be a need to be able to kind of understand patient outcomes and in making sure you have superior patient care, and now you're not just maybe doing like engaging in like coercing a goals of care conversation that will end up with like minimal interventions, you know, that kind of thing. So it definitely, you know, it definitely relies on, on having providers with best intentions, right. To, um, to honor the lives in front of them, which I do think, you know, at least I come across a lot of those, especially in the value based space, that's their goal and intention, right. Is to, um, to have a better patient experience. Even if that means you're easing, someone's transition right to death in a way that's like less awful.
Speaker 1 00:33:08 It's funny, Tim, you are touching on one of the topics that I touched on and in a public health class that I took back in grad school, uh, and it was all around that idea of where the economic incentive is. And we were studying it from the angle of actually the economic incentive is from truly, you know, keep people alive at all costs. And, uh, the book that we were talking about right before we pressed record was how we die by Sherwin Nuland, who looks at death as an industry and says, we have drifted very far away from the idea that death is an organic experience and far towards the sort of keep people alive at all costs experience that the industry supports from an economic angle. What was interesting though, was that was also the 19, you know, 1989. It was years ago, uh, when Dr.
Speaker 1 00:34:08 Kevorkian was making news. And, you know, there were a lot of discussions about how to create policy around right to death. And one of the perspectives was we can't create policy around this in so much as we can create policy that says, you're not going to be panelized for this. And that is the farthest that anyone has really thought it through because otherwise there is the fear that you raised around are we economically incentivizing things in the other direction. Uh, but it was that book for our readers. Please go read it, how we die by Sherwin Nuland. It changed my life. It made me a staunch right to die person. It immediately flipped the switch on my driver's license to DNR, which I've carried ever since. Uh, and it really talks deeply about the discomfort we have in our society around these issues and how we've created a whole industry to support our discomfort around these issues.
Speaker 2 00:35:23 Yeah. And it reminds me, I want to mention another book when I'm pulling it up so that I don't get the title wrong, um, because this is definitely, and now, and I want to pivot now to kind of the more positive angle, cause we don't have like deepened death. Um, but it's called the worm at the core by Sheldon Solomon. And I'm just checked out the audio book and I'm just like partway through, but so much, you know, cause this is what gets to, um, what I kind of want to touch on next because it's like my personal passion and how it sort of dovetails with my professional work. But there's so much of our behaviors that are somewhat inexplicable that really just are rooted in fear of death. Right. And so that, that was the kind of aha for me that I had was like, if I am so passionate about living a full, vibrant, long, wonderful life, how can I do that if I can't honor death, if I can't talk about death, if I can't confront death.
Speaker 2 00:36:18 And then there's, there's also a, another book about sort of from a Buddhist standpoint, like, and I don't fear no death. Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And others. So, so yes, I'm sort of leaning into it, but there's definitely this angle for me, that's like very generative and positive and optimistic and that I also am really passionate about, um, this sort of lifespan health span movement. So I don't want to call it anti-aging because people think of like plastic surgery and these sorts of things, not that, um, but the real scientific work that's being done to essentially treat aging as a disease. Right. Um, and then in the, the, the sort of illnesses that come along with it, cancer, diabetes, heart, you know, heart attacks, these sorts of things. Uh, and there's a lots of folks that are kind of doing the research and talking about it.
Speaker 2 00:37:11 Um, one of my favorites is Davidson Sinclair out of Harvard, uh, and has a website called lifespan.io. Um, so I am personally always experimenting on myself, not in like drastic ways, uh, but definitely adopting a lot of these, um, habits and whether it's, uh, the way I eat or the way I exercise or supplements, I may take all kind of aligned around, um, vitality, like maintaining and vitality as I age. So I, I, in part of that is because I turned 50 in a few weeks. Uh, and anytime I get to a milestone birthday, I start to get all worked up about, um, the anti-aging. And it's funny because there's this company that does something called the inside age and you know, about a year and a half ago, I did my insight age or was it a year ago? I'd already been working on this stuff. And my insight age was only like a year younger and I was very pissed off cause I was like, um, so I stood ha I still had some markers that were kind of high and then I redid it now I'm like six years younger. So yeah, I'm just checking in along the way. And, and what's been so amazing. It's like, first of all, am I allowed to swear on your podcast? Oh yeah.
Speaker 2 00:38:30 What's kind of nuts is like through all this, like, you know, when you, when I talked to you that one, that February, right. And that coffee shop, I remember in Bernal, Glen park, Glen park. Yeah. I was in a dark, dark place. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, I really believe it's like being in these holes and then climbing yourself out is what it's like, how you evolve. Right. And climbing out of that in all the things I've been doing since, uh, I've gotten to this place where I just feel so fucking fantastic and ah, you know, and I see, and it's one of those things where it's like, I see a lot of suffering around me, a lot of suffering that I think is somewhat unnecessary, but I get like everyone has to go on their own journey. Right. And that was me. And I've been on this journey for a while.
Speaker 2 00:39:14 And every step of the way, I'm always looking for something new. Um, and I have setbacks, like I had that setback. Right. And, and I had to kind of climb out of that, but it's just kind of amazing. And so these things that I do, you know, like I'm sure for example, and it's like a rare day that I'll fit it in, but I'm sure to do like my mindfulness practice and breath work every day. I am lucky in that I got a house with a hot tub, so I do it in the hot tub. So there's an incentive there for me to do it every day.
Speaker 2 00:39:44 And it's a rare day on the set. So all I need is 20 minutes, 20 minutes, usually in the morning, get my coffee. It's nice and chilly, get in the hot tub, do all these things, that 20 minutes, I always I've worked on it almost every day. Um, make time for that. And that, like, I came around to just years ago, knowing that every minute I work out, I get back five minutes and like energy and the rest of my day. So I never have a battle with myself around taking time away to work out because I know what's going to like pay dividends, um, sleep, like focusing on sleep. And then the last thing I did and, you know, I don't want to necessarily be a proponent of any one way, cause I think everyone's different. Uh, but I did the sort of experiment of going like fully vegan for a month.
Speaker 2 00:40:28 And that just really was freaking amazing. Like I've never felt more well-nourished in my life. Um, and I combine that with intermittent fasting, which, you know, if you listen to these folks is another, is another big, uh, helpful thing with anti aging and health spins recent, the vegan. Yeah, it was, it was September the month of September. I did like a wellness camp with this, uh, group called one-to-one tribe. They're great. Um, and it had a lot to, it, it wasn't just the food, but the food was like the real revelation for me. Cause I was trying to be begin, but I was just like, the food was boring. It wasn't satisfying. I was always hungry. And so like inevitably at the end of the day I was finding something processed or something or cheese, you know, something like that. So I really struggled to maintain it literally.
Speaker 2 00:41:22 And with this, uh, program, like I just discovered a really amazing food and recipes and now, you know, I just feel really well-nourished and really satisfied like on fire, which has been fantastic. Um, and I make time, you know, I have to make time to prep food, right. To like cut up veggies and do all these things. And again, like, I, I don't feel at all bad about it. Like there's always work to do. There's always a million things to do. I work at a seed stage startup, right. I have five jobs at that seed stage startup. I could work all day every day and not be done my job. Right. So at some point I need to say this other stuff's important and we're going to figure it out. Like we're going to figure out how to make it work. And um, and I do think that all those minutes that I carve out for myself, I get a return on it because I have more energy. I have more creativity, you know, I, you know, I'm on fire basically. Right. Whereas when I'm not doing those things, I feel it I'm like sluggish. I know have the energy I procrastinate. I want to watch more Netflix. I still like to watch Netflix. Don't get me wrong, but
Speaker 1 00:42:34 Hashtag no judgment there. I think what's super interesting about all this Cheryl is. I mean, honestly, to take it back to tech for a second, you know, one of the things that I observed about the, it kind of Pantheon of approaches to worker retention was we're just gonna recreate your life here. So you don't ever have to leave. We're going to give you coffee houses. We're going to give you dry cleaners. We're gonna give you showers. We're gonna give you napping cubbies. We're going to give you everything. And it sounds really great on paper until you take a step back and realize that actually disconnects you from the world. And that's the desired outcome is because the more disconnected from the world, you are the harder you're going to work exactly in the place that you are. And I think what's fascinating is the culture of Silicon valley is so opposite of everything that you've just articulated because it is so easy to find something you're passionate about and create and build.
Speaker 1 00:43:55 But at the same time, you know, you were talking about talent, uh, that gets left behind in that approach. And you know, you, you sound different and you, you, you go into a board meeting and you're like, what we all need to do is take space for ourselves. And that's not the approach that I think wins the pitch in so much. As you know, we're just going to work ourselves to death to get this done, but yet look at everything that gets left behind in that culture. And in that model, it leaves a life behind and enter your point. It leaves a family behind and it leaves talent behind.
Speaker 2 00:44:41 That's exactly it. That's what like leave family behind. Like I can't do it any other way. Right. And B be the parent. I wanna be, be the daughter I want to be. And there are a lot of people in that position cause caregiving, isn't just being a parent. Right? Um, at some point we end up with others that we have to take care of in our lives, in the fact that you have to choose between being great at your work and being great as your, as a human it's just such a unfortunate situation and put people in. And in fact, angers me that is expected and it does box out a bunch of folks. And you see the impact of the pandemic, for example, on working moms, right? It's a lot of left the workforce. Um, there's like the great resignation. There are many, many employees across many industries or just like, yeah, Nope, not doing anymore.
Speaker 2 00:45:38 Like things have to change because we're not, um, you know, people aren't washing machines and dryers in washer, dryer, combos, they're human beings. And I do believe that if there, you know, especially in the kind of work we do, the more, the more you can show up in the rest of your life fully, the more you're going to be able to show up for your work in a way that's the most effective. I feel very effective at my job. And I know my boss and my colleagues would say that I'm very effective at my job. You know, the amount of stuff that I'm able to accomplish, um, you know, is, is pretty, there's a lot, it's a lot, you know? Um, and I think it's because of my approach, I believe it. And so I want that and I want that for everyone. I want that for all, you know, everyone on our team and I want everyone to be able to show up for their lives, with the same amount of energy, right.
Speaker 0 00:46:42 There's such a fear of that. Isn't there, there is such a fear that, um, you're going to take down all of the safeguards that keep people nose to the grindstone. And because of that, they're not, they won't work hard, which is weird because I don't know anybody in tech who doesn't work hard, except people who are fed up with the companies that they worked for. Right. Like, but like people want to be engaged. They, they desperately want to find work that is meaningful, that they can engage in so that
Speaker 2 00:47:17 It's still valued for it. And they want to feel like they can do it without having to sacrifice, you know, be, you know, they're the responsibilities they have at home and their passions and their, you know, else that, that, that creates a full life
Speaker 0 00:47:32 Because ultimately the decision makers at the top on that front, that fear, and I feel like, well, I feel like the great resignation is finally creating an alternative fear that is making it, uh, making the case for, you know, for why you do this kind of thing. So, um,
Speaker 2 00:47:52 That's interesting. It is interesting. It is very interesting. And I do think it's a sort of a pretty seminal moment, right. Because it's, it's yeah. It's just an unusual time or in, and then, um, yeah, and an opportunity and you see a lot of companies sort of coming around, uh, because they're, they see that they have to, and then the ones that don't are, their employees are going to get poached. Yup. Yup. I'm actively working on that on a regular basis. I've hired some amazing talent from companies that are demanding their employees come back to work.
Speaker 0 00:48:26 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:28 That is intensely clever. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. I, I, I have, you know, I've had my own version of that, particularly over the past 18 months or yeah, 18 months now and still going here because I was a firm believer in that idea that like you just show up and you work yourself to death and then someday that will be rewarded except that doesn't actually work for anyone who isn't a white guy. Um, and it doesn't actually work for anybody who has thoughts and ideas that are bigger than the swim lane that they've been assigned to. And it doesn't work for when the whole world falls apart. And you know, my primary care right now is we need to make it to the finish line so that our kids can get vaccinated because both of them are under 12 and there is not a single thing I wouldn't do to get to that finish line.
Speaker 1 00:49:35 Unscaved right. So, you know, I mentioned, I just had my third COVID shot. That's largely because that'll help like stave it off in case I'm exposed to it with the kids. Right. You know, but in another life, the single most important thing was vice-president in five years. And it's funny how that priority changed for all of us really. Um, and people look at me now and they're like, well, you seem happy. And there are days and Tim's going to hate this. There are days where I'm like, I don't know what I do, but I try to do it every day. Um, I don't know what I do, but I try to do it everyday. I'm like, man, I'm just going to wake up and hustle and see what happens. Uh, but there are all the innovation,
Speaker 0 00:50:24 Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:50:26 We had a podcast for somebody who was like, you have to give somebody a title of like director of innovation. You're doing it wrong. And I'm like, I know, but their point was don't compartmentalize. Right. And that's the thing. It's like, you can't compartmentalize these things anymore. Um, and I think, you know, by, by making our lives less compartmentalize and having these hard discussions about these things, we all get better and we all show up for what we want to do. Uh, and God, you know, I sleep seven and a half to eight hours and 15 minutes a night. And I got to tell you when I was working for big corporate entities, that was all the way down to four and a half, five hours. And I have the data that proves it because I have the sleep app, you know, for six years in
Speaker 2 00:51:19 History,
Speaker 1 00:51:21 It drives you crazy. It literally drives you crazy. Not enough sleep will literally drive you crazy,
Speaker 2 00:51:27 Absolutely. In the moment. And then it has lasting effects too. Right. If you keep doing that, and that's the main thing it's like just looping it back into the part of the earlier part of the conversation. When you talk to people at the end of their life, it's like their regrets. Aren't, you know, the promotion they didn't get or the exhibit and get, you know, it's, it's the, it's the real meaningful human connection that they, might've not invested in, you know, time with their families. They didn't invest in these. These are the regrets people have. Um, I don't want to end up in that place of like one, my body's falling apart so I can enjoy life when I'm retired say, uh, and or having these sorts of existential regrets, because I do think it's a, it can be a false choice, at least for folks.
Speaker 2 00:52:09 I mean, I guess I I'll acknowledge, I am in a place of privilege. Right. I'm in a technology executive and health tech startup. So I get that. I don't have to have multiple jobs. I do, but that's just because I want to, um, so yeah, it's a position of privilege, but if anyone shouldn't be suffering it's me. Right. And so that's what that's kind of, the message for me is like how much of the suffering that you're experiencing is, is avoidable, right? Because we're, we're sort of just tunnel vision trying to just going along with the status quo, um, and not just rethinking. And this is the opportunity to rethink. And I do think a lot of people are sort of rethinking their approach to kind of work in life in this moment and wanting and demanding more. So that makes me happy.
Speaker 0 00:52:58 What's the, what's, what's the message then for exacts in this moment,
Speaker 2 00:53:06 I think for exactly, I really do think it's existential threat as well, because if they are leading the old way, uh, they, it is, they, they will have a lot of challenges, um, attracting and retaining talent. Uh, it's just not going to work in my opinion. And I'm seeing that left and right in, and we'll facilitate it as much as possible either through hiring those or referring them to a better companies. Um,
Speaker 1 00:53:35 Hashtag Cheryl is hiring is turning on Twitter right now.
Speaker 2 00:53:40 Uh, so there's there's yeah, I think it's, it's an existential threat and the ultimately it's like I do, there's like, it's all rooted in the fear of dying. So, you know, maybe read worm at the core and reevaluate, you know, what your underlying value system, and as if you're still afraid of your employees having a little bit of space, why ask yourself? Why? Because that control that clinging, the holding on is, has the, we know it just has the opposite effect. It causes people to want to Hightail it and fake work. Right? Like they get really good at taking work.
Speaker 1 00:54:18 I think you just described the Soviet union. I mean, we, we pretend to work. They pretend to pay us. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:54:26 I like your line that we are not washing machines. Like we're not where we are entire people. So yeah,
Speaker 1 00:54:33 It's funny because that connects to something that, uh, it's. I have a friend and colleague, Rachel Hans, who learns a lot about managing people and the language that, and she would tell me the language that we use to describe people, accurately reflects the culture and context of those people's work. So this isn't just a change of how we work with people. This is a change of the culture around work. Uh, and I guess what I want to ask you to sort of end this is, do you see our culture of work changing and where do you feel like the work to continue that culture change needs to happen?
Speaker 2 00:55:30 I do. And I think it gets back to that wine, right? Of we are not resources. We are humans and the truth too. And I've been thinking a lot about this, especially in the work I'm doing. When you think about the impact of AI and automation on work and where that's going in the future. The fact is is that there is a lot that's going to be automateable, you know, what's not going to be automateable the human side of work caregiving and, you know, educating these things like traditionally seen as women's work, these, these things that are traditionally undervalued and underpaid and therefore under resource, you know, this, these are going to be the unautomated automateable roles in the future. And even the work that I do, like the work of technologists going to be pretty automateable pretty soon the computers will be coding themselves. Um, well, thankfully I'm an executive, so that's a little different.
Speaker 1 00:56:28 There always seems to be somebody to flip the switch,
Speaker 2 00:56:32 Starting to actually value what humans bring to the table, because that is going to be the only differentiator in the future. Right. And you know, 2050 years is, is in our ability to code. It's going to be our ability to show up as full human. So if we're expecting employees that show up as machines get to work, and I don't want to do that, then you're missing the point, frankly, in my opinion,
Speaker 1 00:56:56 I had a conversation once with IRA. Salassie you? I think you also know who does a lot of work with AI and I'm recalling that conversation because she was terrified of something she had discovered in an AI algorithm that she was working with. And at the same time, because AIS exist in a constant learning state, you know, the implications of what you just said for something like AI is that the AI itself is going to think of humans as interchangeable when they are not. Uh, and that's, that's terrifying actually, if you really think about what that means for automation, um, do you want to plug your podcast before we wrap? Because Cheryl also has her own recordings. You can find them on LinkedIn. I know for sure is where I've listened to a few, but
Speaker 2 00:57:52 Yeah, LinkedIn and YouTube, um, primarily I've been doing stuff with Larry and I'm not going to pronounce his name. Right. So he is
Speaker 2 00:58:03 Yeah. Over at Arcus and, and, you know, it was funny because he and I, I actually got an executive coaching certificate last year. Uh, he also does some coaching, so we got connected really through our mutual relationship with pep up tech and offering to do some coaching for pep up tech. So, uh, then, um, Selena connected, Larry and I, and at first I was just like, why am I being connected to the co-founder of orcas? I don't work at Salesforce anymore. And then I met with Larry and I was like, oh, he's like my brother from another mother, you know, um,
Speaker 1 00:58:33 Larry is truly a sensitive and amazing human being and we should all be so lucky to have more Larry's in this world. I know that for sure. Is the name of
Speaker 2 00:58:42 Your podcast
Speaker 1 00:58:44 Conversations with Cheryl and Larry is had it,
Speaker 2 00:58:47 Yeah, that is it. It is out there. I also, yeah, there's in, in, uh, other things that I do, I do a little bit of coaching for, um, helping to diversify the, the C-suite and tech. So I have a couple, usually have a couple of coaches going on and, and looking at some other stuff in the future I might do. So we'll see. But yeah, I always like to have something going on, you know, just trying to move, move the needle a little bit with some of these things. I'm passionate about whether it's diversifying technology. I get on a lot of CTL panels and I'm the only woman surprise, surprise, um, or just helping folks live an amazing life as age.
Speaker 1 00:59:25 Thank you.
Speaker 0 00:59:27 Thanks for, thanks for taking the time to talk with us and thanks for all the work that you, that you still do and that you've been doing for so long.
Speaker 2 00:59:36 You're welcome. And thank you right back. Cause you guys do awesome work as well. So thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure. I miss you guys. I miss you too.
Speaker 1 00:59:51 I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters.
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