Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:05 Welcome everybody to the third and final episode of why it matters that is celebrating Dreamforce 2020, or perhaps Dreamforce to you 2020.
Speaker 1 00:00:22 I like to finger snaps from the points. Yeah. Personal or threatening is awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:00:32 Um, can I get ya, uh, uh, we are wrapping up this week with a conversation with Sarah Leon it's from world vision, with whom we've had. I would say personally, the absolute joy of working with on a Salesforce implementation and build out project for world vision. And it has been a journey, but what this conversation very nicely connects to is a statement from Jesse Maddix in the one that we just released earlier this week that says, you know, when you're working with humanitarian organizations, you know, you have to be willing to play the long game for change and technology. So without further ado, I wanted to turn it over to you, Sarah, to introduce yourself. And, you know, let's dig in a little bit on that because I think you've had a frontline view to it at world vision.
Speaker 2 00:01:37 Oh, yes, yes, yes. Um, thank you, Tracy. My name is Sarah Leon is, and I just joined world vision in April of 2020. Um, I am a senior manager of information systems with that company with their international programs group, um, which is directly tied to their finance and operations and, uh, managing the government grants and private funded, um, funds, um, for the entire WVU S which is world vision, us organization, and a big part of my responsibility there is managing the Sinai, which is just our rebranded version of Salesforce implementation and a team of project managers and business analysts. And also thank God, working with Nim to also help build out this solution.
Speaker 0 00:02:45 That's really cool. What, uh, I, I have one sort of sidebar question and that is, I've worked with clients through the years who have rebranded their Salesforce instance, something, not Salesforce, right. Just out of curiosity, what was the motivation behind sort of calling Salesforce, Sinai internally? Can you say that at all? Or were you there, I'm hoping to not hear that because when I first started working with you, I'm like, wow, they're doing a lot of work on the Sinai peninsula and that is like a really politically fraught region. And I'm really interested in that. So
Speaker 2 00:03:26 Yeah. You know, it's funny, I can't really speak to exactly why that was chosen. Um, you know, all of these are just my assumption, like, um, you know, it's a mountain, um, and it's surely a challenge to reach, you know, the summit. Um, but I, I would assume that it's because it is, it is related to Mount Sinai, which is in the Bible and, you know, world vision is a faith based organization, specifically, um, Christianity and Mount Sinai is the place where Moses received the 10 commandments. Yes. And so I can only assume that, you know, because of that being such a huge monument and place and revered even, right. Um, then that's probably the sort of perception that they wanted to give that, but that would be giving some serious creative credit. So whoever came up with that, so I don't go
Speaker 1 00:04:43 God's first documentation. Right, right. I was
Speaker 0 00:04:47 Thinking more like, there is only one Salesforce, and this is the Salesforce for you, but yeah. Yeah. Right. What about, I actually want to, gosh, there, I there's so much in what you just said that I really want to dig into, but I think, um, your background, you came from the corporate industry, uh, and you were, you were there for a long time and you moved over to nonprofit Landia, uh, as I call it. So tell us a little bit about what motivated you to do that. And, and I think, you know, Tim, in the prep for this, you had mentioned explicitly, you know, that a lot of the big humanitarian organizations are faith based organizations. So I don't know there's more to dig into there, but I want, I want you to start with that. And maybe Tim dig in a little bit on that as well.
Speaker 2 00:05:44 Yeah. So I, you know, as, as I mentioned, in my introduction, I am brand new to world vision as of just this past April. So I haven't even reached a year and every organization prior to that was, um, with the corporate world. So this is my first experience working for a nonprofit. I knew that when I embarked on my job hunt, that I did not want to just keep repeating the same mistakes that I had made over and over again. And thinking that, um, you know, my next adventure was going to be any different from the last and, you know, it was also very important to me to also find a non-profit that wasn't just doing humanitarian work, but that also was super aligned with my Christian values and world vision. You know, I just, I honestly did not think that it was going to be possible for me to bring my natural talents, my existing area of expertise and technology into an organization like world vision.
Speaker 2 00:07:14 Um, because just because I guess, like you said, with any humanitarian humanitarian organization, you are in there for the long haul and my initial perception even going in was just not to expect technology at all. Really. So I, that, that was a decision that, um, was really motivated by just the need to escape after a 15 year run in corporate and coming to a place that I just didn't want to do it anymore. Um, I was, you know, at a point where I was working so much and, um, I mean, it was prestigious. I was paid a lot and I even had to take a pay cut to come to world vision. But I, now that I'm here, despite the challenges that w you know, we're gonna definitely dig into with what we face, um, there is a lot to be said about how grateful I am to be working with a faith-based organization, because, you know, there are other benefits to working with one, and I think that makeup for, um, you know, the challenges and, um, the last thing that I'll say about, you know, just leaving the corporate world is just that, you know, I think, I don't know if this happens to everyone, but it happened to me.
Speaker 2 00:09:04 Um, I think I just reached a point where I just knew that this perception of, if I just had more, if I just had a higher title, if I just had, you know, such and such, um, then that I would finally feel like I had accomplished something or I had arrived, or I, you know, would feel better. And I just realized that that was just being, I think, excessive and, um, being at world vision has really helped to like refocus, um, and really helped me to reprioritize the things that are important. And I mean, it's just kinda funny because, you know, April, we were already in the throws of the lockdown and I had to onboard virtually, um, and for a talk a non-technology organization, like world vision, I think that they were very afraid of what that would look like. But for me, I mean, it was like, I mean, I, this is no problem. And I, and I actually love it. I love the fact that, um, you know, I I'm able to still get a lot done and, um, it's been a really great opportunity to just be more with my family. Um, and I think that that would have been still the case, even if the pandemic weren't around, um, if I had compared to, if I had stayed with corporate. So
Speaker 1 00:10:47 Yeah, that's, um, it's actually really refreshing to hear someone gets so personal about the motivations on why they choose what career they're choosing. I think that it's easy to gloss that over. I think it's also easy to just assume that if there's a checkbox that's non-profit, then the work is somehow good or better. And I think that's right, exactly. I don't think that's always true. Um, world vision though, gives them a very different category where it affects the lives of so many people globally. Um, and it creates that a very interesting connection point, um, all across the globe doing projects everywhere. Uh, and you get a bird's eye view of that, um, in a way that a lot of people just don't don't get to see in the organizations that they're, that they're working for. Um, I, I'm curious about a trend that I think is happening across the globe right now, which is that things like things are getting so bad that the, just the scarcity of goodness and the scarcity of a decent environment, you know, um, and, and scarcity of social fabric even is raising the need for impact everywhere across the board.
Speaker 1 00:12:07 And so I think that there is, I think it's very real that if your organization does not have an impact strategy, you do not have a path towards future talent. Like you you're, you are in a world of hurt when it comes to recruiting fresh talent, because people are taking pay cuts to go to places where there's more impact, and everybody's measuring a double bottom line. Now it is, are we profitable? And what good are we putting out in the world? Um, do you feel like that you saw that trend? I mean, obviously that was your trend, but do you see that in others moving towards the sector or towards impact in general,
Speaker 2 00:12:48 It's really interesting that you mentioned that because, you know, the company that I came from was a huge, um, bank. Um, so I was in financial tech right before, and I don't want to name them, um, because they were really like, kind of what I met my threshold. Um, and so one of the things that you touched on was the fact that, you know, impact was, you know, one of the things that I think, and I've never heard that term, the double bottom line, but it's perfect because even in, you know, like the corporate strategy of that company, you know, you would have the financial statements, but, you know, along with that, there was a whole entire strategy on what are we doing for the community. And, um, one of the benefits that we would have as employees was to be able to take part in those programs that are in our local communities, um, like, you know, helping girls who code, or just kids who code and, um, you know, making, you know, other types of impacts around sustainability or whatever, you know, is close to you.
Speaker 2 00:14:15 And B that being part of that brand, that you also message to your customers, um, as being a part of what you care about. And absolutely, I feel like that is a shift that, um, not only companies are taking note of B, you know, and that's why I, I don't, I, I would have a really hard time believing that, you know, th this is really philanthropic for any corporation, but that they're taking these signals from their employees, and they're taking these signals also from their customers that their customers care about who they're doing business with now, they CA and that's why, you know, like the Warby parkers and like the Toms of the world, they, they, I think they were probably one of the first, some of the first companies that were directly associated with their, you know, philanthropic ties, right? Like for every pair of glasses, we give a pair of glasses to somebody in, you know, uh, um, a developing country. And it, it really speaks to people, you know, I don't think that, like, everyone reaches the point where I reached and I was like, I want to go work for, um, you know, that company. But I definitely think that, um, there is this shift, um, with consumer culture and, um, just to be more intentional about, um, you know, where they're spending their money and who they're supporting, and they know that they have some control over the success of that company by doing that.
Speaker 1 00:16:05 Yeah. Thanks. Thank you for that. Um, yeah, I think that, that, I think that's an interesting trend that we see. I'm curious, what, in your day to day operations, what's different about working at world vision than a big banks. Tracy had just totally stole that question from you. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 0 00:16:23 Okay. I was going to leave there. Uh, no, it's okay. We have this little, so how we do these folks is we have a little agenda in our chat window and assignments and stuff, but, oh, well, uh, no, I, I want that question answered Sarah very badly, cause there's a lot to dig into there, but what I will say is like, without turning this into like Tracy and Sarah talk therapeutically about their life journeys, I imagine that for you, there is a sense of profound relief. Even if there is a sense of frustration or like, oh God, I don't have the resources I had when I was working for big corporate entity. I imagine there is a sense of profound relief around, like, I can express a part of me in my workplace that is intrinsic to who I am that I wasn't able to in my prior sort of career iteration.
Speaker 2 00:17:18 Oh my goodness. Yes. Yes.
Speaker 0 00:17:24 Balance is the frustration with all the change stuff that I want you to dig into.
Speaker 2 00:17:28 I I'm, I'm really glad that you brought that up because, um, when Tim asked the question, I was like, oh my God, where do I start? Um, and this has kind of helped to narrow it down. So, um, you know, I'll just answer that question, um, or answer that point that you just made about you being able to express exactly a part of me that I definitely did not feel comfortable expressing, um, in the corporate world, despite any of the, you know, the programs sort
Speaker 0 00:18:13 Of employee resource groups and internal chats and this, that, and the other
Speaker 2 00:18:19 Thing. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're discussing your faith at work. It's just, it's just not done. And, um, you know, I'll, I'll be honest, I'll, I'll go back to, you know, reaching that threshold, um, uh, of corporate America and, you know, I, I made that decision to look for a faith based nonprofit because of the fact that I was under so much stress and, um, not being able to talk to anyone, not even just have a conversation with them, um, because you just don't to, to let people see you, even sweat, you know, especially in, you know, as a female, even, you know, there is this view of super women and being able to do everything. And I totally wanted to, you know, just corroborate that narrative, right. And to fit into that ideal persona, um, until I couldn't anymore and being able to come to world vision and don't get me wrong because just because we are a faith based organization doesn't mean that we all see the same. We don't all see things the same way. Um, we still have, you know, different Christian denominations, which is a whole nother, um, you know, thing to talk about that is not within the scope of this discussion, but, um,
Speaker 0 00:20:19 Follow up, you know, there's
Speaker 1 00:20:21 A longer, I'd be so fascinated is
Speaker 0 00:20:23 Fading the COVID world. I mean, you and I, uh, you know, I, I don't think it's like inappropriate to say that you and I, and you and I, and Hannah have had a million discussions about like, what that feels like as an outlier anywhere. Right. You know, faith is something we don't talk about in the corporate world very well. You know, LGBT identity is something we don't talk about in the corporate world very well. And, you know, we love who we love, and that includes our belief systems and structures that we choose to abide by for our own sake of sanity and connectedness to higher power. And, you know, to have a space where that can be expressed is super important. And to have space work in an organization that represents the expression of that. That's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 00:21:16 Live wire. I don't think it is. I actually think we should just dig in here. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:21:21 I want to talk about change management. All right. It's never been talked about, I do want you to connect your faith somehow to moving world vision through a technology change. But yes, Tim, we should dig in on this a little, because this is a very interesting term. Yeah. Well, and
Speaker 1 00:21:39 I want wanna say, so I worked like so lots of difference between me and your both experience because I'm a white male for one thing. And then I, I've never worked in a large corporate structure. The closest I got was working at a small or mid-size missions agency, which is where I picked up Salesforce and the rest is history. Um, by the way we code named ours too, I cannot right now remember what it was, but I did, um, coined the phrase, one thing to rule them all. So that was like, we were just trying to get right. Well, that was not,
Speaker 0 00:22:14 That was not, you know,
Speaker 1 00:22:17 Oh, really did other people, well, that was mine. And then other people copied it all over <inaudible> yeah. I'm just, I'm just pointing out. Like I didn't, I, I, I never had that corporate sense where you could never display any vulnerability. And also I, that is just Bulletproof for men anyway, in a way that is like, I see all the time now. Um, and so, um, I think just to highlight a difference in that, um, but that, that has made it actually fairly easy for me to talk about faith just because I feel like it is important. Um, and Tracy and I have varied. Like we should not be friends on paper, like, uh, this doesn't work and yet we are very good friends, uh, have been for years.
Speaker 2 00:23:09 And I think though, I mean, what's that, how could you not love Tracy? I
Speaker 1 00:23:14 Know, I agree. I totally agree. Um, that, that is my, that's my, my take as well. I think a lot of it is I think a lot of it is that, um, there is so much fear about the conversation going bad. So like I breaking a sweat thinking about, um, Christian and LGBTQ coming into the same conversation like that, that makes me very nerd, like gut nervous reaction to that because I've seen that go so badly in so many situations. And so we avoid it. And I just, I think it's interesting that so much of like the net hope, um, members and so much of the largest work going on in the world is fueled by faith. And it's not fueled by technology. The technology is the tool that's helping us get there. It really is fueled by faith. And, uh, it just does, like, we don't want to talk about that because it's scary to talk about.
Speaker 1 00:24:13 Um, and so anyway, I I'm glad for us to have that conversation. Um, one thing I, one thing I do think is relevant to the faith conversation is the power of SDGs. And what I mean by that is like, we like a foot into this conversation. We will hit some really Rocky terrain, like we just will. And that is what happens with values as part of the reason that we want to avoid it. What is interesting about the SDGs is that it gives us a way to say fine, fine. You're not working on that one. Okay. Like, whatever let's do work on these other three together. Or, and so it gives a spectrum rather than a yes, no, like you're good or you're bad, which the categories just don't work. Um, does that, does that make sense? Um, thinking about organizations well, anyway, I'll stop there.
Speaker 2 00:25:08 Yeah. I mean, there's so many of them that, you know, like one organization can't do all of them. Right. So you do have to specialize and that's, that's really, I think what world vision has also done, um, and take in a couple of SDGs that, um, they've really focused on that. Or maybe they didn't even do that. Maybe they like already had like their core things that they wanted to make an impact and then match those to the SDGs. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:45 Yeah. Um, and I think that the point there is that in our work, we, we come, we work with organizations that would not be aligned with each other and being able to find footing in conversations where we can agree that we're work on working on these 17 outcomes and whether or not you're like in alignment with how we get there, methods, methodology, you know, et cetera. Um, that, that just offers a better way to think about moving the needle forward on global change. Um, yeah,
Speaker 0 00:26:22 It, it takes, uh, it, it, it, it adds a level of abstraction to the conversation that's actually needed. Um, because I think, you know, as we've seen, uh, you know, referential point in time, we are recording this, you know, after a very long election cycle has finally sort of ended and started resolving this. And so many things have become politicized that you need sort of, you know, in a, in a sort of older world where, you know, we could sit down and sort of talk about these things through the, you know, the rising discourse and dialogue of philosophic debate, like we can't anymore and we need an abstraction. So the least we can point at something and say like, I don't want to talk about this stuff, but I do want to talk about this abstraction. And it kind of, it works in two ways.
Speaker 0 00:27:21 It takes away the needs to have really sticky conversations, but it also prevents us from having really sticky conversations, you know, and I, and I think that's sad. Like I, you know, we have kids, my wife and I, and you know, I'm trying to teach them political philosophy from the lens of like, I am a X identified partisan, but I'm not gonna teach you what being that means, what I'm going to teach you instead is why this philosophy works for me, what the other philosophies of political operation are and allow you to see comparatively what works and doesn't work in each of them, you know, but hard to do that now. Uh, and it's even harder when you have things that have become so politicized. Like I have a neighbor who like, I kind of accidentally unloaded on because like, it was the day of one of the debates.
Speaker 0 00:28:25 And like, he was like, how are you doing? And I'm like, <inaudible> fricking Republican Gillyard crap going on right now, you know? And he was just like, I see, um, you know, and, you know, after the Biden, when, you know, he was like, Hey, look like, how are you doing? And I'm like, I just need to say, I'm sorry, I unloaded you on the other day. But like, truly it is, I sleep better at night knowing that the president of the United States is not attacking my family for who they are, you know, like, and maybe we can move beyond this as a issue of division. And just say, we'll sort of think about faith and these things as their own components to the world, rather than in opposition to each other. And I think the STGs produces that same effect globally.
Speaker 2 00:29:19 Yeah. And I mean, the STGs are globally, right. Because they were developed by the UN and they, they're a common standard that the entire world is aware of. And so even across countries, across cultures, across religions and, and, you know, creeds, um, those are at least, I think, you know, like that level of abstraction, that despite all of those things that can factor into and color how we think we can all agree that, you know, there are certain things that we want to improve and make impacts on. Right.
Speaker 1 00:29:57 You know, clean, clean water for all does not need to get balled up exactly.
Speaker 2 00:30:06 Whether or not the, the, how we get there maybe, but we can all agree that everybody should have access to clean water. My God. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:30:21 All right. I'm going to focus us back on technology because I just put the title to this thing on the title card, which is technology change, faith and impact. Um, and I want to say, look, I know from having worked with nonprofits and Tim knows from having worked with nonprofits for a decade 15 years or more at this point that technology and nonprofits are frequently either oil and water, or they are so like fruit salad that you can never make a decision. You know, it's just like, we're just going to grab what we're going to grab and life is going to move forward. Um, you and I have talked a lot about what this looks like trying to work in this context at world vision. Um, I'd love to know how this connects to your leadership role there and the project, not so much, like you don't need to say like Nim is doing a bang and great job, but you can, but what I'd rather you say is like, we're working with a technology partner and these are the challenges that we're having and that's Ignacio stick to a technology partner. Like this is like what it is when you're inside of an organization like this one that,
Speaker 2 00:31:38 Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I knew when I was going from the financial tech world, um, and the bank that I was working with was they just had such a focus and part of their value proposition even had tech in it. And they just prided themselves on open source code, you know, and I knew that I had to prepare myself going from that environment and not having a budget whenever I needed a tool, it was just like, oh, just, you know, just sign up. Um, I didn't have to do any pitches or anything, um, to an organization where, um, oh my God, um, I don't even know where to start. Okay. So, um, I am, um, six months or seven months in now. And, uh, I think one of the big things that I guess I'll speak to you first is I think that, you know, the leadership knows that, um, that technology is important to get their job done, you know, and, you know, Tim, you said yourself, that technology is an enabler, right.
Speaker 2 00:33:11 Um, but at certain organizations like world vision, um, technology is still seen as a cost center. And, you know, this is something that, you know, w you know, I really feel like my grad school program helped really prepare me for, because, um, I finished my grad program in, um, December of 2018, and it was the executive technology management program at Columbia university. And our first course was I had to write basically a thesis on how to, um, how to explain a return on investment in technology and going into that, that assignment, I didn't realize how hard that was going to be, but my goodness, I mean, am I not living that reality right now? Because, um, you know, it, especially working, you know, directly under a finance vertical, um, they are used to measuring ROI in terms of, you know, return on investment. And I know that this is not, you know, this is a non-profit.
Speaker 2 00:34:45 So, you know, the return on the investment right. Is, um, the impact we make. Um, and that's what we report back to our donors. So, you know, and, and even that is hard to measure, but it's still somewhat quantifiable being able to quantify and, you know, to communicate why it's worth investing so much money into technology for organizations like world vision is really hard because you can say things like, but it's going to streamline your operations, and it's going to make people happy and less frustrated. Um, and you know, it's really painting that picture of like, you know, even for not just convincing because we have convinced them, right. That's why we are already in the middle of this implementation, but we're still having to even convince the users like, this is the reason why you want to use this. I promise you, it's going to make your life easier.
Speaker 2 00:35:53 But, you know, I didn't understand it when I was going through my program, why we weren't working with more tangible methodologies. And a lot of it was focused more on behavior and psychology of organizations and group think, and, um, how long it takes to change and shift a culture. And, you know, even being aware and sensitive to the generation, that's coming into your workforce and dealing with that. But now I get it because, um, it's one of the conversations that I also had to have with one of my direct reports this week about, you know, some of the things that, you know, like she's a top performer and, you know, like she's very passionate about what we do. And so it is really frustrating when you care so much about pushing this technology forward and working so hard to make it good and solve their problems.
Speaker 2 00:36:53 And yet, even though we've solved that problem, it's still so hard to convince them to use it. And, you know, um, pair that with the fact that, you know, we worked so hard because our team is so small and our team is so small because even though leadership says, this is important, you know, we're not adequately staffed. And so, you know, there is kind of like this disconnect that we feel, um, and, you know, I'm, I'm not knocking world vision's leadership or anything, but, you know, these are conversations that I personally, as like the team lead of, um, you know, the, this entire project and because they did hire me as, you know, a transformational, um, change agent for their organization to have these conversations, to drive this agenda forward, that I am having to, you know, play that long game that Jesse, that Jesse said was, you know, it's changing, you know, the, the mindset and getting people to think of things differently and to view technology as not just a cost center, not even just an enabler, but as a value proposition, just like in the financial tech world, that we can start bringing into our proposals and to say, this is the reason why we're, you know, who you should donate to because we have a tech stack that allows us to do such and such and such, and you will easily and quickly be able to receive from us the, the type of, um, uh, reporting that you want.
Speaker 2 00:38:41 The you'll have, you'll be able to have the confidence in the data that we present to you. And, you know, that would speak so much to me as a donor. Um, being able to not only see, you know, the impact that my donations are making, but be able to have that level of confidence, that that data is actually accurate, right. And that's really only accomplished when you do have things like technology, and you have technologists working within world vision and partnering with, um, you know, great, um, partners such as now, it matters to help make sure that those types of systems are built and in a way that ensures data integrity. So, um, that's just part, I don't know, one,
Speaker 1 00:39:41 Yeah, that is a great answer. And that is actually a great place to leave. I do. I want to just point out how frustrating it is to work in a sector where the narrative, the marketing of the sector has been, every dollar goes to whatever, and the unintended consequence of there's no need for operational budget and it's bad. It just puts so much pressure on decision-making for all, you know, so it does land this in a cost center instead of a multiplier, this multiplies everything, not. So, you know, it ends up in expense rather than investment categories. It's really challenging to, to, to move out of that. So there is, it is, um, both a delight to work with you and to see the work that you do and the transformation that you were bringing to world vision, uh, gets talked about at now, it matters because we see the work, um, and we see the challenge and we see the effort and we're so grateful for it because we, we also see the numbers of people that are affected by that. And it's are huge. Like the amount of leverage that you have in being able to bring change to an organization, this large is, is a, it really is one of the wonders of the new world that we're in with technology is that a person, you know, that is working from home can make such a big global difference in an organization is just amazing. And thank you for that work. Thanks for working with us. And thank you so much for joining us this morning. It's really
Speaker 0 00:41:37 More about you personally enjoy Sarah and you know, that world vision is willing to keep coming to the table for this journey makes a statement to its peer organizations about the value of having it in the first place. And yeah, we frequently talk internally about like, oh, let's just, let's just help Sarah get through this next thing. It'll be great. So thank you. Thank
Speaker 2 00:42:01 You, honestly. I mean, we couldn't have done any of this without you. I swear, but I mean, I think that we make a really great team and it means so much to me that you guys view me that way, because I had no idea, but, um, yeah, it really means a lot to me that I, that not only am I making an impact, um, that I didn't even really think that I was making, but that other people see. Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:42:27 Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you, Sarah. Thank you. I'm Tim lucky. I
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