Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack director of innovation at now. It matters joined by my constant companion, Tim.
Speaker 0 00:00:20 Uh, hi Tracy. I so unnerving just be called constant instead of stalwart, but there we go.
Speaker 1 00:00:26 Yeah. Yeah. There's this thing called Google and I just quickly did. Yeah, I did stalwart synonym and I'm just going to start picking new words and throwing them at you
Speaker 0 00:00:36 And I'll just let you do
Speaker 1 00:00:37 That. Yeah. There's actually some really kind of ones that have interesting connotations, like, uh, what was one vigorous? That's a synonym for stalwart, uh, committed.
Speaker 2 00:00:50 Don't use vigorous.
Speaker 0 00:00:57 I feel like Connor may need to just get, redo that word.
Speaker 1 00:01:02 Committed, loyal, faithful, devoted vigorous companion, Tim.
Speaker 2 00:01:06 These are all synonyms of
Speaker 1 00:01:08 Stalwarts. Yes, absolutely. Cause it's like a mule, right. And I guess
Speaker 0 00:01:18 Our mules bigger a smell.
Speaker 1 00:01:21 I mean, they are when they're going up and down the grand canyon, right?
Speaker 0 00:01:24 Yeah. I guess they are. Yeah, right in their own way. Um,
Speaker 1 00:01:30 Any who I had an ex who hated it when I said any who, so now I try to work that into my conversation, like right. Cause they get wicked mad at me and I'm like, what's wrong with you? Uh, anyhow, um, we are joined today by someone I had the distinct pleasure of getting to know through somewhat of a weird series of events. It was sort of like from the mixed up files of Mrs. Basil E Frank Weiler, I met Jan Kate early, uh, and Jan is a consultant extraordinary. Or to nonprofits someone I've had a great many soul searching philosophizing conversations with. And Jan, you should introduce yourself because I'm just going to gush about how many times I've just sat down with you and talked about life, the universe and everything.
Speaker 2 00:02:24 Yeah. That was, those were heady fun times. And I can remember several of those, you know what we maybe, maybe we'll start to scratch on some of that. And, um,
Speaker 1 00:02:33 God, I hope so.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 Oh yeah. Um, so, okay. My name is Jan. We covered that. Um, but I specifically focus on engagement strategy for nonprofits and specifically really identifying what matters. And in fact, now it matters why it matters and what matters to your most important constituents and getting real about that. You know, not making that a routine affair, building really authentic relationships and technology plays a part strategy, plays a part and the really fun part. But I think we are going to dive deep into is aligning people around that because that is the hornet's nest of human behavior, but either makes or breaks it all. So that's what I focused on,
Speaker 0 00:03:24 Which gets at your, your business name. Right. Airline strategy. So doing that. Okay. Right. Um,
Speaker 1 00:03:33 Oh my God. Sorry. I it's nevermind.
Speaker 0 00:03:40 No, you got to go now
Speaker 1 00:03:42 I kept reading. It is a line strategy, so I'm like, yes. Strategy can be, but you have to. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:03:52 It's okay. But in fact,
Speaker 1 00:03:56 Really sleep deprived the past three years, but
Speaker 2 00:03:59 Double Manning has always been a part of it. Tracy.
Speaker 1 00:04:03 I always get the undertones on the double one. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you for that clarification now. I feel totally foolish. Awesome.
Speaker 0 00:04:14 Jan, you're one of the few people I know that talks about cowardice and I appreciate that you do that. You don't shy away from that word. And so I want to start today's discussion by giving you a chance to talk about cowardice and why you think that's an important word.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 Um, okay. So count. Well, number one, it's a fun word. Um, typically it's, I mean, there's a lot of fun as you start to think about cowardice. Um, I guess here's what I'm going to say. And it's important to establish it upfront. It is not an accusation that does not apply to myself a little bit of a double negative meaning I am as much of a coward as the next guy. This is not a bad bet. Finger points are right back at this one, but specifically here's, here's how I think about it. And as I've started to think about it, I've started to recognize it pretty deeply in my life. But, but it's like for cowardice to be an operative term, you typically have two conditions that apply. Number one, you have a sense of duty to something like there needs to be an underlying moral code. This is why cowardice was typically you heard a lot about it in like the 16th century. <inaudible> like aware you had like really strict religious doctrine.
Speaker 1 00:05:46 Is this the Calvinists? Are you taking it back to the Calvin?
Speaker 2 00:05:49 So the way back, like when you do research on the word cowardice, you will find it in religious and military courts where you have very strong underlying doctrine that everybody agrees. This is how we comport ourselves. So there's this underlying code that is known and accepted within a community so that when someone doesn't live up to the standards that everybody has recognized in upset excepted, that's the cowardice like the personal weakness breaks, the bond of what, um, everybody expects from the group. So, you know, usually it's, um, soldiers that have fleet in battle or, you know, someone that did not live up to their, you know, religious doctrine. So that's typically where, or, and then that's the old version of cowardice that you would see a lot of usage on. And then of course in modern days, it's usually reserved for terrorists or people that we want to find morally reprehensible.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 But the, I think the common, the common definition would be where you have this underlying code that we owe something to ourselves that we owe something to a cause. And then we fail that the second condition is that we fail it and we fail it in big ways, in little ways. And we fail it out of a sense of weakness or fear. And the thing that is the most common of all, like it is almost as baked into the sauce of being social people is that we, we back down from things, big things, little things that we think are important because of fear for our reputation and because of a fear that we might offend or, you know, disappoint or the boat, blah, blah, blah. So there's just like baked into the sauce of almost daily life are a lot of, you know, what I, what I think the, the really provocative, the really provocative, um, opportunity around thinking about and talking about cowardice is to make those concessions, like after the valuations, like, you know, I'm going to give it on this because of this, or, you know, what that's not worth giving in on.
Speaker 2 00:08:28 I'm actually going to push that. I'm going to make us a little bit uncomfortable here. It's worth it. So to just take it out of these kinds of unwitting, you know, appeasement that just kind of get baked into everything and make it an active evaluation, but to make the idea that we don't even ask and that we don't even try, like, let's go back to the underlying sense of purpose. What are we doing out of fear and weakness and make that something that's really, you know, make that a dialogue with ourselves and others. So I think that's fun.
Speaker 0 00:09:11 That means that no, that is fascinating. Does that mean that an act of cowardice is not, is just avoiding the sense of duty and the code of conduct altogether? So
Speaker 2 00:09:25 I lost it or yeah, like, like you, it might've become belt. It might've become dulled to just what becomes the price of admission to a social group, to an organization, to whatever
Speaker 1 00:09:38 That's exactly where I took it in my mind was, oh, this is a long way of describing organizational politics and culture. Um, I went on a tear recently and I can't remember what room I was in, so, oh well, but I was like, yeah. So I can describe corporate it and corporate it service in, you know, a paragraph or less by saying you create a cult of personality around a leader that then becomes like the rally point for organizational politics and culture. That makes it think that everything's being different. When in fact you're just repeating the same stuff with different labels and making people conform to unrealistic expectations of what is supposed to be delivered unto them by virtue of their participation in the culture and in the organization in the first place, and actually doing longitudinal harm by creating in and out groups that are closely aligned to that culture, personality or not.
Speaker 2 00:10:42 I would agree, Tracy, I think it is like, I think the most interesting and the most interesting manifestations and the ones that are probably most like tangible on people's lives are, you know, what you have to do in order to get by or get ahead or, you know, the, the make it, if you're successful, make change in an organization or more, more likely than not all the ways that you're not making change because you need to bend on to the side of security, um, or what, you know, however that plays out, there's probably any number of expressions that are overt or subtle, um, to this. But my goal would have it be active, make that an active dialogue, forgive the dogs. If you guys hear that,
Speaker 1 00:11:35 I just showed up on the other recording that we did this week. So like, you know, I was like, forgive the dog, she's barking, forgive the dog, you
Speaker 2 00:11:43 Know?
Speaker 0 00:11:46 Yeah. Jen, um, I'm curious where you see this in the work that you do with clients and nonprofits and how do you, like, do you bring that word into the contract with you? Like when you're working with, uh, nonprofits or is this something that you think, I mean, you and I have talked about this as the background, um, for, for other things. So just curious, like how that fits with your work.
Speaker 2 00:12:11 I think I, I would I, in, in terms of my work, it's interesting. I, I would say I've landed on this as a concept, mostly as a, like going deeper with what I think, you know, tick talk, we don't have many years, you know, what's, what do you know, what do you want to get said before you ain't talking to anymore? And you know, where do you think there's a valuable, you know, contribution to a dialogue? So I kind of gravitate to this as a concept because it is, I would say it infuses my own life in the sense that, you know, there are many ways that I hold back on my own potential out of fear. And I, you know, in the time that I have left on earth, I don't want to be doing that. I don't want fear to hold me back from something that I think is valuable to offer the world.
Speaker 2 00:13:15 I think that applies to, uh, and that applies personally, that applies professionally. I think that this applies, the concept applies also at the organizational level. So I would say as I've been more deeply reflecting on my life and my work and the value that I can bring to my clients, I would not have it be the, it might be a provocative thing to talk about, and you can have some thought pieces around it in the backdrop, but I would say more directly, it infuses the notion of what is not being talked about here, holding you back, what, you know, it infuses things like, you know, what are your sacred cows that are like, it, it leads to the, the, you know, the, the, the, you know, the, the, the bowing to a sacred cow, it leads to all variety of tensions within an organization that get kind of swept under the rubric of say culture and politics that need to be teased out and, and, and, um, kind of put before the light of day diagnosed and treated like it is about kind of uncovering going beyond the generality of what we would define as kind of our FDIC, you know, situations to like being really steely eyed and honest about what is driving a malaise, what is driving this middling quality that you in some way know that you're suffering from that is holding you back in some way.
Speaker 2 00:14:58 And then as it relates to technology, technology can easily become, oh, technology is going to be the thing that gets us beyond, you know, our shitty situation. You know, this is going to be the thing that makes us our ideal selves. And so you put so much money into it. It is bright and shiny. There's so much marketing dollars spent on describing it that it can like technology, can't become that thing that is going to make you this ideal self professionally, organizationally, collectively, whatever. And yet at bottom, I think that that is, that is a ruse. And if not, and not just a ruse, because underneath it, you still have this behavior change. You still have potentially the same stuff that is going to hold you back, that you really weren't the reason you went to technology as a solution, because you weren't dealing with the underlying problem in the first place, potentially.
Speaker 2 00:15:53 And, and so my kind of approach, um, that, you know, the people that work with me, they love it. The ones that don't, they would hate it, but it is above all bare knuckled honesty around, you know, what is, what, what is holding you back and maybe, and then if you get real on that, then maybe technology can move you forward. But if you don't, you've just wasted a lot of money and you're still left looking at each other, the same people that have the same problems now with just a lot more money, spend a lot more complexity and well, shit, I guess we disappointed ourselves again.
Speaker 1 00:16:31 Do you find, oh, man, like where my mind went on that as boggling, because you can replace technology with a lot of terms and still have the same discussion. Right. Do you find in your work that folks having a name and a description of this concept is relieving to them? Like they're able to sort of like, you know, I, I think about when I'm training my dog, right. At some point or another, I will have to just like lay her down and hold her down and be like, I am your, there is like me and then God and that's life. And she fights it for a minute and then she just relaxes. She's like, right. Do you find people are open to this? Do you find that they find relief in this idea? Do you find that you have to kind of take them on a journey?
Speaker 2 00:17:28 I would. And I would, I, I, I would not talk about cowardice to a client. It's almost like, I almost think of cowardice, like other concepts, like belief or confidence where once you become aware of your lack, it, it reinforces the problem itself potentially. So like, like with confidence, oh gosh, I'm not confident. Oh, how do I get confidence? Like the self-awareness of the problem leads to a greater impact of that problem belief. Oh, I got, I can't believe in that, but yet. So once you become aware of the lack of belief, it reinforces itself. So I, I w I would be very careful about talking about cowardice with someone in the sense of it could become a reinforced or of the condition. I would be oblique in the
Speaker 0 00:18:26 Groove on the record, rather than
Speaker 2 00:18:29 I would, I would almost talk about the, I would go in through, what are the trappings that you would see like, oh, are you, um, I would go into, are you in decisive? Um, are you, are you favoring, um, are you trying to appease people versus trying to get them to support you are? I would go into the behavioral trappings of it, um, from an organizational perspective, I would say, um, what are the conversations that you're not having that you need to have? You know, what, you know, what is, how are you, um, and, and how many ways are you kind of hiding behind a conformity of practices in your peer group, best practices say versus doing something that is unique to you? So I would go in through what I think are like, where you've got the, the important tension that the important inflection points that either if you're choosing one over another, I mean, it's all generated from whoever you're talking to, but I would go in through the behaviors because that's what people see and know the, the, the awareness of an underlying condition can be very, I would imagine not everybody's up for that.
Speaker 0 00:19:52 Yeah. Do you find that those are common in your clients? Like, do you see some of the same ones happen, um, frequently? Like, are, do clients avoid the same things when they're trying to, like when their sacred cows or conversations they don't want to have, are those similar client to client or are they,
Speaker 2 00:20:10 I mean, it's human nature, right. Like I would say that people, I would say, well, I am lucky. I know people that would work with me would be probably braver than most, because if like, peop for folks that like to hide behind, um, a generality or want to feel good about an outcome versus, you know, um, actually use it to like, like I have a, my, my client base would be, um, very biased towards, um, people that rock the boat that are pretty open. My style is very transparent, if not a little transgressive. Um, so just that in and of itself would, um, separate them out. But I would say though, regardless, so my clients say the CEO, the COO, whatever, those are typically very kind of, um, that they're not afraid of disruption, but the, the, the things that it feels like many organizations struggle with in, in the sense of not dealing with underlying tensions between departments, um, between, um, like even managing the balance of the security of meeting an annual revenue goal versus the potential losses of long-term growth, you know, like it is all of the ways that you hide the underlying tension versus surface it and deal with it.
Speaker 2 00:21:45 And then the human nature probably on top of that is the insecurity of, can I manage that problem? If I, you know, it might be easier to hide it if I don't feel like I can manage it, you know? Um, so, and then how conflict averse are you as a person? So, you know, the, the, the human nature is probably 90% of the whole thing.
Speaker 0 00:22:12 Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons that we've worked together, um, from our first conversation, like it's been pretty natural. I think that some, because as we look at technology, we've moved from a bits and bytes and configuration of technology model to a humans are the other half of systems. And how do you configure humans so that they know how to work well with systems? And interestingly enough, um, a lot of the work that we ended up dealing with is some of the same things conversations people don't want to have. And, um, and you know, our, our way of our, our way of, uh, sourcing that out is using the technology to create the cadence and roles so that those conversations happen predictably. Um, and I think, I think it's interesting to just see those two pieces work together. Um,
Speaker 1 00:23:16 I have to ask, like, you know, we're talking about technology here as the center for this conversation. Um, and I, I completely agree, like technology will not save you period. It will not. Um, although there's a lot of marketing out in the world that will convince a person otherwise, have you ever been asked to do, you know, DEI consulting or talked to organizations? I mean, because what you're describing is so true of talking with another person or organization about like, you know, when they show up and they're like, Dolly, we have a leadership team that kind of all looks the same, and we have, you know, problems retaining staff that don't fit what seemed to be a very homogenized plates culture. So, I mean, th there's so many possible centers for this way of thinking, like I have to ask, have you ever helped an organization through a DEI journey using this framework?
Speaker 2 00:24:26 And then I, I, it's a framework, maybe at this point, it's like a series of questions that I keep asking myself and kind of stumbling on to the next, you know, thought about it. But no, but that is really interesting Tracy, in the sense of, of, um, how, you know, the, the, the tentacles that it can have to unearthing, I would say this in terms of, and where you've got me thinking now, where it goes smack dab, but what you're saying is the, in terms of conversations, you're not having with yourself, the, they, they, you know, the, the, the cost of admission to whatever, you know, that social grouping is, you know, the two way corporate culture, et cetera, if you want to go that big with it. But I would say that once you start to strip away some of the dynamics, and once you start to kind of have the new conversation with new people, it does disrupt power structures, right?
Speaker 2 00:25:39 Like there is, there is a, there is within a group within an organization, a presumed sequence of who do you need to have the conversation with first as the gatekeeper to conversation almost. And then what is the sequence of conversations you can have afterwards? You know, like the, just the power structure of conversation itself becomes a potential reinforcer. And so in, once you start to, once you start to spin, you have given new people, new voices and new perspectives on that issue. And I'm, I bet you, they see it plain as day. I mean, not, it hasn't become part of the organizational conversation.
Speaker 1 00:26:29 So bang on like needed, right? I mean, first of all, a series of questions, I feel like you're a fellow nerd. You'll understand this. When I say this, that's sort of like blade runner, right. You know, like, I'm going to ask you a series of questions to determine your humanity. Okay. But you know, where my mind went with this. And, and, and I think what, what, what I'm trying to press on here is exactly to your point. I don't actually think it matters if you're innovating at the same time that you're doing it, because what's actually causing the change is asking the series of questions in the first place. Yeah. So like, I'm thinking of this as like, sure, we're going to look at this from a performance perspective of how you work around technology, but this is a, this is a performance perspective on how you can sort of address those huge elephant in the room conversations.
Speaker 1 00:27:34 When it comes to talking about super uncomfortable stuff in corporate structures, like race, ethnicity, diversity of gender and sexuality, and all the things that organizations say they want, but don't know how to attain. Right. There's even a whole nother side to this. And that is just human performance management, because you really don't know what's holding back your employees until you ask. And you have to be willing to sometimes hear that you as a manager are the person or the thing that's holding back your employees and how many managers do you know, want to hear that? Right. Like, wait, we've looked at the root cause here. And the root cause is you. Um, I learned this lesson very early on in my consulting career that picking at these structures of power have huge implications for an organization. And I'll never forget the gig. I was like nine months into consulting when one of my clients was like, yeah, we fired that person.
Speaker 1 00:28:43 So you're going to be working with this other guy now. And I said to my boss, I was like, what the hell happened? And he was like, oh, don't worry about it. You did your job. That's what happened. And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, you were working with them. And this employee was just fobbing off and they knew it and they took care of it. So good job. You know, I was like, wow. Okay. So that, but the ramifications of what you're saying here are huge. And I just want to point that out because where my mind goes is we need these tools because clearly what we're all trying in all of these ways, isn't perfectly adequate because if it were, we would have a radically different sort of curve of everything from technology adoption to, you know, DEI stuff.
Speaker 2 00:29:31 And it, yes. And, and in terms of I, this, I don't know how, as I listened to you, Tracy, I'm thinking I start to map it on to just the question of like, like human potential. And, and like, that is the thing that is most, I believe interesting and most accessible about the idea of cowardice. It is the ways that we hold ourselves back from our potential. And, and I think they can, if you, like, as an organization, an organization has potential, it has color. It has potential, you know, by harnessing the collective potential of lots of professionals. And, and I, and I think in terms of performance measurement, that little bit of measurement, that's another piece that like, it, it is like, what, what are the enabling conditions of human potential? And, you know, we've started to talk, you know, there's this political element that really can kind of consume, it can kind of lead to, you know, some people having concentrated power, lots of people having less power, you've got, you know, the cultural dimension of needing to be liked and how that get plays out.
Speaker 2 00:31:03 And then, and then you've got this other, like the other mechanical piece that is baked into the sauce of every organization is measurement. And this is where I think technology I'm really interested in getting you and Tim's perspective on this. Like I was in an organization for 20 years and, you know, at the end of every, the end of every year, you've got your evaluation time and you've set out to do something, you know, maybe a few adjustments were made along the way. If you're lucky, you've made those adjustments, otherwise, here's your goal, the achievement of the goal that became the basis of performance measurement. And, and I think that the question in terms of the, the, like the really interesting piece of what is potential and how do we not just have middling potential in our time on earth is like, is measurement helpful for that is like, and this is where I think technology just, it's a really big question to me because it allows you to track and measure.
Speaker 2 00:32:12 It allows you to routinize. It allows you to align. It allows you to have complete transparency into all of that. And its highest potential. You can say, you know, oh, we've tracked our impact. You know, and I can do that as an individual. I can track my impact. And the big question I have is, you know, is the tracking of the impact, like, okay, it's good to know you did it and you can prove it and then you'd need to combine all of those impacts to lead to a greater impact of the organizational level, whatever. But I guess my, the thing I wonder about is, is the process and the project of tracking impact one that has us being more conservative in the assessment of what we can do because we will have to prove it because there will be complete and utter transparency around it. And I don't, I it's not at all. I mean, humans have been doing a really unbelievable things about technology and I just, I don't know. I, I worry and I think about, I don't take it for granted, but technology unleashes impact, not at all. I wonder if we hide behind the impact as a way of proving what we've done versus doing more of what we might have allowed ourselves to do, if we didn't have to track it,
Speaker 1 00:33:39 You're almost positioning measurement as the hobgoblin of the Beehag. I can't remember whoever introduced me to the word. Right. You know, like how they say like routine is the hobgoblin of small minds or something like that. Right. You know, it's sort of like measurement is the hobgoblin of the big, hairy, audacious goal. If I didn't have to measure everything, what would, what would the audacity of my goal look like? That's what I'm hearing you ask.
Speaker 2 00:34:10 And then combining on top of that, let's say, you know, that bright, shiny thing, that big technology project that's going to make us our better selves, you know, all of that allure, the needing to make good on the investment is just, you know, that is kind of
Speaker 1 00:34:26 Time that may not even be realistic three months next quarter, six months,
Speaker 2 00:34:32 Like I've got to prove that it was worth the $2 million that we sunk into it, like the needing to prove is a very strong force. And, and I, and I I've been in the position of needing to prove it, which led to audacious goals, which then kind of leads to its own. Like that all depends on what is the culture you're in and right,
Speaker 1 00:34:57 Because we can't be on, we can't also be in sourced hold by our own audacity.
Speaker 0 00:35:03 Yes. I mean, my, my thinking on some of that is that the fundamentally organizations fall on a spectrum of viewing their team, their staff, the people that work for them. Uh, and the people that saw to some degree of the people they serve as well as either. These are people that we are here to use to accomplish something, or we are here to accomplish something together. And our goal is to help these accomplish this thing we're doing together. So you will end up in an organization that either uses you or that develops you. Like that's the simplest language that I can get to on it. And technology will only allow, like it will allow either of those models to flourish. So when it, when it comes down to using technology to manage performance, if the goal is to get every drop of efficiency out of somebody and then if they leave fine, because you know, people are cogs and we've got a big wheel, you can use the technology to accomplish that, measure it really well and then use it to off-board and onboard really rapidly.
Speaker 0 00:36:19 Um, so it can be really useful that way. Um, it would be really hard, I think for organizations that actually care about developing their staff to do that without adequate tools for measuring and some of this is not all or nothing. So, you know, I think that, uh, we, we went through a season of trying to understand what does it look like to work as a team together to accomplish doable goals in the short run? And what we found is that we did need technology and we did need to measure things, but not nearly to the degree that I think I thought as an economist with an econometrics background that we would need to do, it ended up being a lot more simple. Here's how we remember the three things we're working on this quarter. Like that was really, really important, what wasn't really, you know, and then also having a, I think this is where a lot of the measuring and matters why you're doing it, which things you measure, but, and that you don't have to measure one thing.
Speaker 0 00:37:19 So we found is that organizations that are measuring in minimum, like here's the least the lowest thing that you need to do with this, with this job or for yourself, if you haven't hit that, we've got a problem that's actually really reassuring. And in fact, I just saw an article, um, that Rachel Hans who's on our team wrote about how measuring actually helps people feel like they know if they're on track or not. So that's in an organization that cares about developing people and that's because Rachel would never work for another kind of organization, but that is actually really important, but that doesn't get at the what's the most you could do. And I think that's where you get past the conservative. Like how do you just check the box and move on and know that you're done and take a nap when you are, but into how do I stay inspired to do even more and will that more even be noticed if I do it.
Speaker 0 00:38:18 And I think that that without a way to measure that without, and I wouldn't even say most organizations don't even have the skills to measure anything much less tangible and even more intangible like qualitative, like is this person pursuing our, our values and reflecting, you know, some of that potential. And what is the feedback from others around this person and how helpful they are on the team? Like all of that, if you can't even measure the minimums, good luck measuring some of those higher, more important metrics. But what you'll see is that organizations that are out to develop people will have figured that out. They, you know, and it may not be perfect. It may not be all tied into one centralized data platform or service or whatever, but they will have found ways to recognize that and to serve, um, those staff. And you'll notice that those staff are heads and shoulders among those that you can hire out there like that is if you aren't developing your staff, you will not retain talent, just that simple.
Speaker 0 00:39:25 Um, so I do, I, I don't think it's all or nothing. I think, you know, Jan, this gets back to why I feel like, you know, we've partnered well together is that there is more, there's more than one dimension to this and that organizations that want to grow in their ability to develop staff need tools to do that. Um, and they need, they need an aligned strategy of culture behind that, or they, you know, or they'll start measuring minimums and, you know, it'll all degress into safety and risk metrics and how do I get the next raise and move forward? And then you're out of like, that is not the way that you innovate as an organization or even scale.
Speaker 1 00:40:07 I will say one caveat tin. You also make it pretty clear what we're not measuring. And I think that's also important.
Speaker 2 00:40:15 That's exactly what I was thinking of Tracy. Like, okay. The risk metrics are clear, the minimum metrics are clear. Like what are like what a fun topic that would be, what a fun workshop. Um,
Speaker 1 00:40:30 Well, we also have a to don't list. Like every quarter we have the to-do list and every quarter we have the don't list and that's important because that completes the box in which you're acting, if you're one side of that box, and then the other side of that box is unlimited potential, then the other two sides of that box are what are you measuring and what are you not doing?
Speaker 0 00:40:56 Yeah. And I mean, Tracy saying that exactly right at now, it matters we have it to don't and I would say, not everybody uses,
Speaker 2 00:41:04 I understand did the grammar aside to, down to, to do not. Um, so,
Speaker 1 00:41:10 Okay.
Speaker 2 00:41:13 I ain't gonna, I ain't gonna, so this is like, just making sure I understand this is the, um, if we're going to pursue this, we will not pursue this kind of thing.
Speaker 0 00:41:24 Yeah. And this is not for everybody. So I think, um, we are talking at, so at, you know, now like way into how it matters functions, but one of the, one of the things that we've developed is here are the things that we are, here's what we're working towards. And like, it's just a few things that we're working towards any given time. And then for people like our current innovation director and CEO, it is very important to have the, by the way, don't go chasing everything. And here are some things that we know we're attempted to go chase and we're deciding as a team now to not go chase those things. And what we found is that not like there are a lot of people that have focus and I just, I, I, so I, so respect and envy that I am not one of them.
Speaker 0 00:42:19 I really, really crave like the next thing. And I really liked that. And so it's been actually very helpful to have a here's the two don't have the things that you could work on. Just avoid these right now, maybe in the future we'll work on them, but for now, we're not going to, and that's really given, um, personal knowledge like Tracy and mine, um, some of the guardrails to make sure that we are staying in what we need to do. Um, and you know, maybe not every team needs those, but those have been helpful for us. Uh, I would say, um,
Speaker 1 00:42:51 I was going to say metaphorically speaking, uh, on highway one, going north of San Francisco, there is a place that you'll reach. And the name of the shop is literally called candy and kites. And you're driving along highway one and you're like, I'm here for the beautiful scenery. I'm here for whatever the roadside antiquing, I'm here for the crashing ocean of the beaching waves and whatever. And then you see this place from about a mile away because they put a bunch of Heights in the air and they put like all this like bright decoration on it. And you're like, oh my God, candy and kites. That sounds so good. And you go in there and you come back an hour later and you don't know what happened at time, but somehow you have four kites and like eight pounds of candy. And it feels great until you realize that what you were there for was the scenery. And you just spent all your money on roadside, antiquing on candy and kites. Right. It's like that, you know,
Speaker 0 00:43:55 I did not know where you are doing with that and you still landed it well done. I did it. Yep. Thank you. Does that make sense, Jen, on that to don't that to don't list language, language aside?
Speaker 2 00:44:07 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:44:10 I can. I just say some really hysterical shit's happened while we've been recording. I don't think our listeners are going to be aware of right now. I have to get this out. First of all, like Tim went off of video for a minute because a pen just like freaking exploded all over
Speaker 0 00:44:29 Ink on my cup and then I drank from it. So I know where the black spot right there. We'd gotten away with it. Scott. It was back in flow. But now I guess
Speaker 1 00:44:46 Just going to say, I'm sorry. Yeah, I just gotta get it out and like just some crazy stuff's happened over here at the house, like the dog going in and out and molesting the cats and so forth. I'm just like, man, I'm just really trying to keep it together for that.
Speaker 1 00:45:07 But I think, you know, Jen taken in all the way back. I mean, the question that I have as a follow-up because this is the one thing I wanted to ask you when we started, but I think we've picked it apart the whole way through. And that is what, what is it that makes non-life technology for nonprofits so damn hard. And I mean, you see it everywhere. It's not, you know, it's not hard. Just it now it matters. It's hard. Every place I've worked, every place I've sold, you know, you're either dealing with sales cycle issues or implementation issues or this, that, or the other things. So I feel like we kind of answered it, but I'd love your wisdom on it for our readers, because I want organizations listening to this to hear themselves in it so that they know there's a way out.
Speaker 2 00:46:00 Right. Right. I would. So what makes technology for nonprofits so hard? It, I, we have, but let's yeah, let's, let's put a bow on it. I would say I would. What makes technology hard is what makes life hard and, and it is like, I think we've tried, but that's kind of obvious based on the nature of the conversation we've been having, like the thing that makes it hard is, you know, um, not recognizing the truth of what you really wanted it to do for you and potentially not understanding the substitutional effect you were hoping it would have, you know, like, oh, if I did this, then, you know, um, I won't have to deal with that. Um, so thinking that it's going to solve a problem that it's really not, and that, because it's never gonna solve a problem that it's not designed to solve, which is what is, you know, what is the change that you w w what problems weren't you talking about?
Speaker 2 00:47:21 We talked about that, you know, uh, what potentially, how the trappings of tech getting caught up in the, the, the, the trappings of technology, the part of technology that is about standardization, routinization predictability getting caught up in that and taking your eye off the prize of where do you really want to go. Um, and then we, you know, and then everything that we have been talking about is part and parcel of just the behavior change of people, right? So whether we're talking, it's kind of all part of a piece, the technology is just a thing technologies have been changing for ever. And, you know, we all still struggle with change. We all still struggle with how do we work together collectively? And we're all still struggling, both as people, as professionals, as organizations, you know, that I'm going to bring it back to that. What is my potential and how am I holding myself back?
Speaker 2 00:48:39 And technology can play a really interesting role in that as either compounding the thing that's holding you back, possibly, if you're really self-aware and, you know, being honest with what those problems are, it can help you move through them, but it, I believe, and that's what I think is really interesting as a reflection, you know, about cowardice is, you know, there, we're surrounded by a middling quality. We live in a middle end quality just to get, you know, day in and day out to get through the day. And, you know, I would say that when you think about your technology, just being really, really aware of, you know, how do you hold yourself back? How can this help unstick you? And, um, yeah. And I guess getting back in touch with that duty that you have, and this is, you know, Tim talking about, you know, now it matters.
Speaker 2 00:49:42 You are, you are a knowing you as a person, you are someone that is, you have a sense of purpose. Like I, you are someone that is you just exude purpose. And so not surprising that when you talk about mallet matters, potential is baked into the sauce because you have that underlying sense of duty and you expect the people that work for you to have an underlying sense of duty. I feel so freaking lazy in comparison to your sense of duty. That's why I think about cowardice is because I'm talking to people like you, it's like, God damn Jan, you're such a coward. And, and so, no, it's true. And so I guess that's the, that's, that's the thing that's, what's really interesting about it is just making that an active, like, get in touch with that sense of duty and, you know, what's going to push you through it and, you know, make that a really, you know, some things you're going to give on as we all will. And then some things maybe you don't and just, yeah, that potential, it is a gift to be born human. We're not born a rock.
Speaker 0 00:50:47 So Jan, that, that was, um, that was amazing. And then you made it amazing about me and I feel similar to, I it's so weird to hear you say that. I feel like when I talk to you, I feel like you have so much purpose and drive and I'm like, man, I just, I need that clarity that, that Jan has on, like, I need to do this and you can make a list and then do the list. Like, so I was still like, um,
Speaker 1 00:51:14 Low bar, Tim, you might want to raise your praise. You can make, Hey,
Speaker 0 00:51:20 No, this is what I want to say for all of you people out there who cannot complete a list, like being able to go through a list and complete it is no small feat for those of us who can't. So like, um, yeah. I, it, that may seem like a low bar, but it's,
Speaker 1 00:51:38 It's the type of list you make jam that matters.
Speaker 0 00:51:41 Yeah. I mean, well, I mean the list of different quality, I guess I'm just assuming that, but yes, we're definitely worth pointing out that. Great.
Speaker 1 00:51:53 I am so glad you joined us today, Jan. I, there are people in this world whose conversations absolutely expand the mind and thank you for going on that journey with us. And I'm, I'm really glad that you're out there working in the world the way you are
Speaker 0 00:52:12 Completely agree.
Speaker 2 00:52:14 This was a lot of fun. Yay. I'm probably going to get fired by several clients. So
Speaker 0 00:52:20 Seriously.
Speaker 1 00:52:22 Yeah. I think what they're going to do is figure out how to bring you in closer, honestly.
Speaker 0 00:52:26 Yeah, exactly. And listen to this and double it. Yeah. No, thanks for your time, Jen. It's always pleasure. Really appreciate this. And we want to do here because we actually think that this is an important word, um, for others. And so, you know, you and I have talked about cowardice before. I think that this is, this needs more, it needs to get out in the world. People need to hear this. So thanks for, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:52:47 It's not, it's not either or yeah, it's fear is the mind killer, but what you're talking about is much more nuanced and thank you.
Speaker 2 00:52:55 Well, thank you guys. This was the last one.
Speaker 0 00:52:59 I'm tin lucky.
Speaker 1 00:53:00 I'm Tracy. Crohn's Zack and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 0 00:53:04 Um, what matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services from offering, advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 1 00:53:14 If you liked what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlists and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
