Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:06 Hey everybody. Thank you for joining us for another edition of why it matters from now. It matters. We
Speaker 1 00:00:14 Totally made that up, sticking with it and I'm sticking with it.
Speaker 2 00:00:18 And I was telling Jenny like Tracy, just named our show. Why it matters. Didn't ask me. And here we are now. I think that, I think it's now what, welcome to why it matters officially. Why it matters. I'm just going to go with it now, from now on.
Speaker 0 00:00:35 So, uh, just to set the context, we've recorded a bunch of things over the past week. All of these are recordings that are coming out in November and December. All of them were prior to the American election being finalized. So you're going to see recordings coming up in the next month where it's going to be like, oh, I don't know it's gonna happen. But, uh, today is Saturday, November seven. Uh, Joe, Biden's obviously just been announced as the president elect of the United States, Kamala Harris, making history as well. So my dog quietly scratching against my door because this is a total lo-fi thing. So, uh, we are joined today by Jessica Hauser, who is the executive director of downtown boxing gym. And this is a full circle recording for so many reasons. I dunno, Tim or Jessica, whoever wants to go first, you should, because it's really nice to be here. And it's really nice to be talking about this the week of Dreamforce.
Speaker 2 00:01:38 Yeah. Welcome to the show, Jessica. Um, I'm glad to glad to also throw in, um, about how we met. So I was driving to get groceries or something and got a call from Tracy and
Speaker 0 00:01:50 I was working at Salesforce at the time. I worked
Speaker 2 00:01:52 At Salesforce at the time and said, okay, I I've got a project that I need you to take because this is an amazing organization. And I'm, and I'm frustrated that I can't give it the service it needs. And I think, I think you should have a conversation with the executive director. Who's this amazing person named Jessica. And I was like, that sounds awesome. Let's do that. So a couple of weeks later hopped on the phone and within minutes I was like, yes, absolutely. I can tell that Jessica is amazing. Um, I don't remember exactly why I thought that at the time, um, and, and so quickly, um, but that's only been confirmed by, uh, lots of work together in the last year and a half or two years, I think maybe two years now. And so, um, welcome to the show, Jessica. Uh, we're really looking forward to letting you tell everybody what you do and how you do it.
Speaker 3 00:02:50 Oh, well, thank you. And yeah, it's funny how life works. Isn't it? This has been an incredible couple of years. And so thank you for introducing us to Tim. It's been awesome. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:03:04 It's been glorious to see this now on both sides of that equation. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:03:10 Cause you're back in the project now. Yeah. Cause I'm, you
Speaker 0 00:03:13 Know, I'm doing solution architect work, you know, it matters on, on yeah. Yeah. That's great. Jessica, just tell us everyone about you and DBG and your connection in story and how you got to where you are right now and our lo-fi way I'm going to go, you know,
Speaker 2 00:03:32 I love it.
Speaker 3 00:03:34 It's fantastic. Um, yeah. So I'm, I'm Jessica Hauser, executive director of the downtown, back to gym and don't let the name of our program fool you. It is, um, we're an out-of-school time program, really working to just train kids for life and do everything and anything we can to help support them, find their light bulb moments and become the best versions of themselves that they possibly can. Our kids are eight to 18. We are in Detroit, Michigan. Um, our founder and CEO started the program in 2007, really as a direct response to his experience, getting passed from grade to grade could a reader, right. Would reach out for support and was just told it doesn't matter. You're going to be dead or in jail by the time you're 21. So just be happy. You're getting passed along and you know, over and over again, he's like, I'm not happy.
Speaker 3 00:04:26 I'm getting passed along. I need to know how to read, but that narrative is created for you long enough that, you know, you, you start to think, well, shoot, I only have, you know, four or five years of life left to live. Like let me get out here and live it. And he got into his late twenties, mid to late twenties and realized, well, I haven't been to jail and I'm not dead. So clearly somebody was lying to me and asked himself what would make him happy? And it was, you know, to learn how to read. He often says, you know, one of the loneliest places is to be in your own head if you can't read because you're just trapped, right? You, you, you know, you have nowhere to turn. You have no hope. You can't get yourself out of any type of situation.
Speaker 3 00:05:05 And so, you know, I, I'm always really inspired about how he shares his story because he says, you know, he went back to school and learned how to read. He's incredibly intelligent, but he said, that's an individual win, right? Like I could have continued down that path and been successful, but he then asked himself, how do I make this a win for the community, not just for myself, which again is just really inspiring and sets the tone for all the work that we're doing. But you know, he works three jobs saved up his money and found a space and just opened the doors. And the mission is just truly incredible. Um, you know, it's very individualized. The programs always been free cause they have to do community service as their payment to be in the program. Um, but we test the kids three times a year and see where they're at academically, emotionally, um, and then have an individualized plan for every student.
Speaker 3 00:05:57 And, you know, we've grown significantly since 2007. I got involved in 2010, um, which I can get into after, but just by chance and started building out the business side. So when I got involved, there was about 60 kids in the program. We now have 150, we have a waiting list of over 1300 kids that is just growing like crazy, um, pre COVID. We were actually in the process of adding another a hundred students to our program, but that is on pause. Um, and you know, ever since he opened the program in 2007, every single kids graduated from high school and not just graduated, you know, like just graduated from high school, but graduated at or beyond 12th grade reading level, which is amazing. And unfortunately not the norm in our beautiful city. I mean, 98% of our high school graduates have gone on to college. And those that didn't the 2% that didn't choose a college path have gone into either trade school or some sort of profession professional career track. So, um, you know, we're just super proud of the work and, um, are pushing like crazy to be able to continue during such a crazy time.
Speaker 2 00:07:08 Yeah. I remember the first conversation that Tracy had with me. She said, here's the deal. This place figured it out. They say, no boxing, tell your homework's done. And I was like, I've never been more convinced on a business model ever in my life. And, and I do mean because I think you, and I agree Jessica, that, you know, just because there's a nontaxable checkbox on the business, it still is a business. And you have to think about, um, executing on deliverables. And I just think that is so great. Like no, no boxing till your homework's done. Um, and I know that you've branched out and you have a lot of other programs besides boxing now, but you still do box was, was Kali, did he box, was that his background?
Speaker 3 00:07:56 No, but people often said to him, oh, you're this really angry kid? Why don't you box? He's like, I'm not angry or, you know, I'm frustrated because I can't read not because I'm an angry kid. And so, you know, that just kept coming up over and over. And we find boxing is an incredible hook. You know, you hear about a lot of sports being hooks into programs, but for boxing, it really tends to attract kids that are either bullies because, you know, there's usually an underlying reason they can't read there's some sort of trauma or something happening or kids that are getting bullied, which both, both sets of kids end up either dropping out, getting kicked out, they fall off the radar. Right. So boxing is just an amazing tool to attract both of those demographics of, um, young people. And it gives you that cool factor in that safe thing.
Speaker 3 00:08:46 You can tell anybody you're going to a boxing gym, nobody is going to question right. And I mean, in our waiting list, it shows that, but you say you're going to the Detroit reading center and you know, for many kids, unfortunately they, they won't be able to withstand the peer pressure to not go because that's just not, what's always lifted up. So, um, yeah, it was, I mean, brilliant, brilliant idea for sure. I will have our 150 kids. I mean, right now we have three that actually box, um, they'll all tell you they box, but there's only, I mean, they all have to learn the discipline of the sport. Sure. Great mentoring tool. Um, but you know, very rarely did it actually get in the ring and compete.
Speaker 2 00:09:28 What other programs are there that you're working on?
Speaker 3 00:09:31 Yeah. I mean, we do a whole host of things. So, um, and it's evolved based on the passions of the kids, which again is what makes, I think what makes this place, our place so special. We have a steam lab. So we focus a lot on science and technology and math. Um, we have a lot of kids that have gone into gone down the technology track actually because of the exposure that they've had in our space. We do a whole host of enrichment programming from mock trials to fashion design seminars. You know, it's really just trying to find those light bulb moments for the kids, right. So we do try, we try a bunch of different things depending on what they, um, are expressing interest in. And because our kids are with us often all year round for years, we really have a unique opportunity to build on the opera, you know, on the exposure piece.
Speaker 3 00:10:20 So we now have college, a lot of college career readiness work that we do, we follow and support our students into college or their next step in life to try to help support them. We set up internships and provide, um, I should mention we provide transportation, which is incredible. And one of those things that is really a non-negotiable, but we drive many of our students to their internships. When they're in high school, we do financial literacy. That is, we build on that throughout the years, um, that they're with us. So yeah, really just try to touch on, you know, anything that helps build a whole human and double down on that work.
Speaker 0 00:11:01 I will say I frequently at that pivot that you just described as how I've noticed two things happen in the past year, one is, you know, you've consolidated your name to DBG Detroit. You know, that feels very intentional. And when I frequently describe what DBG Detroit is up to, I say, yes, they do boxing, but their mission is actually to make a better Detroit through the youth of its schools and the promise of better support for their education. And that takes a whole host of like things to accomplish. The other thing I'll say is that, you know what, like I have only now in my sort of late form, strong thing started talking about this personally, but like as a person who always existed very much on the outlier of like gender and sexuality in my own life, that narrative of I'm only going to live to 25 is real.
Speaker 0 00:12:03 And that was also my narrative. And I was like, I'm going to be dead by 25. So like, everything in my life is just this like high arc path of like, do it all, be it all, whatever it doesn't matter. And when I hit 25, I literally went through a five-year crisis between 25 and 30. Cause I was like, I have no idea what I'm going to do. And, and the narrative of dead by 25 limited my horizons so much in my own mind. Um, it was incredible. So yeah, it really makes a difference to change a person's outlook on how long they're going to persist in our world
Speaker 3 00:12:44 And was so heartbreaking to me is, you know, you in a different, you in a different environment where people were lifting you up, right, to like Kylie in a different environment where people were lifting him up, you know, just the difference that it makes. And I think about my childhood where, you know, just because I happened to be in a zip code that I was expected to be amazing and I happen to, you know, follow a certain societal norms where, you know, I check the boxes, so they assume that I'm gonna be great. Everything was laid out for me. And that doesn't mean it's put unquote easy, but when, when, when society believes that you're going to be great, I don't think people understand the difference that that makes versus what you're sharing. You know, Kelly's story, unfortunately. So many of our kids, I mean, really all of our kids, right? They're growing up in an environment where there is an assumption that, you know, if, if something amazing doesn't happen, they're going to end up dead or in jail. I mean, that is still the narrative that is created about our kids. And, you know, every one of our kids has the potential to be the next Einstein and the fact that as a society, we're not lifting them up and setting high expectations and then putting the scaffolding in place to ensure that they get there is just it's currently. And that's what's criminal.
Speaker 2 00:14:11 Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Um, as the, as the white guy who got life handed to him, I completely agree. And one of the, one of the reasons I'm so glad to be friends with you, Tracy and others is what I've learned about that privilege. And, um, yeah. And so, um, I think that's, I think that's well said, thank you, Jessica. Um, how did you get involved? What's your story, uh, um, with the boxing gym,
Speaker 3 00:14:40 Um, it's one of those things where life has a plan for you or, you know, whether you believe in a higher power or not, it's like there's something out there at work. Um, but I went down there to work out. I had no idea of the incredible program that was going on. I was in graduate school at the time studying on the government side, um, and the legal side of the house, but international children's rights is what I, you know, my passion has been youth for a long, long time. Um, and you know, a friend of mine out in the suburbs said, Hey, why don't you go down and train with my coach? He, you know, and I liked doing the workout don't ever hit me. I hope to God, to never be in a fight or have to actually use my skills, but boxing's a great workout.
Speaker 3 00:15:25 Right. And, um, I went down there one day and walked through the doors and was just instantly struck with what I saw. I had seen a lot of after-school programs, but I'd never witnessed what I did that day, which was, you know, kids of eight, you know, ages eight to 18, um, actually interacting and laughing and joking and talking to each other. I was really used to seeing kids kind of broken off into cliques and not interacting with each other and then adults and kids, you know, genuinely interacting, um, or an adult would say, go do your homework. And a kid's like, all right, you know, again, you just, you just don't see that all that often. And so, you know, I'm like, who is this Kali guy? What is this place? And I just followed him around for about two hours and I'm sure he was super irritated for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 3 00:16:13 One, you know, I'm not the mission. So he's like, are you going to work out or can I just get back to my, my work? And, you know, I found out later that he was letting people come trained to, you know, either get them roped in, to volunteer or just, you know, make a few extra bucks to keep the lights on. And so, um, yeah, at the end of the two hours, we just had a conversation and, you know, I discovered that he was really a one man show with some, you know, a couple of incredible volunteers trying to do it all, you know, really fulfilled the mission and his vision. And, and also, you know, do run the business, which is a, you know, beyond full-time job, both roles are beyond full-time jobs. And so I don't know what came over me. I just was so moved and, you know, knew that he was at a breaking point where he, you know, at the time he was living in the gym, um, he had shared with me and, you know, was going to have to close it down to go work three more jobs to save up money, to keep it open.
Speaker 3 00:17:13 I'm like these incredible kids can not be on the street, you know, or like without this space. Um, and I just had this, like just this drive in me that I can either sit in a classroom or sit in an office and talk about the work or I can do the work. And so, um, yeah, the rest is history. So 2010 until now, I've just been, you know, the mission has never changed. Just, you know, we've just been able to implement, um, a lot of the things that he had envisioned, which is a really humbling space to be, to be able to help build that foundation around the work. So yeah, that's how I got involved. Um, and like I said, it's just amazing how life works, you know?
Speaker 2 00:17:56 Yeah. That's amazing. Um, are you, are you guys still close? Yeah. Yup. Yup. Yeah. I'm saying that because you were supposed to go off someplace and get married this year and then, and then COVID happened. It's all right. It will happen. Great. Great. Still, still wanting an invite for that when it does. Um, great, awesome. Um, COVID first I know. Yes, please. Let's do, um,
Speaker 3 00:18:34 My computer around, but I'm trying to keep the internet connected.
Speaker 1 00:18:40 Right. So it's totally fine. I'm so sorry. I'm like not the normal media where I'm like screaming at me. No, this is not good morning America.
Speaker 2 00:18:52 Sorry. Which you've been like, what are the shows that you've been on? Like this is actually compared to the other interviews that you've been you've done, which has been really a lot and sort of amazing. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:19:03 Um, we've been really blessed with great media, which I would say has helped, helped, um, tell the story and get the message out there. Yeah. We, we have been on all sorts, you know, nightly news today's show Rachel Ray, um, vocal media NPR. That's wonderful. Um, and it's great for telling the message. It often is confusing because people think, you know, millions of dollars just rain on you when you're on national news. And it, it doesn't Nope. So, but it's great to get the word out there and help build our reputation. And I mean, really it is always very exciting and it never gets old to think while people want to hear about our work. So that's pretty cool. And this is equally as important, Tim.
Speaker 3 00:19:58 No, but I'll tell you, I just want to acknowledge like the work that we do together, the implementation of Salesforce is this was a gigantic leap of faith for our organization. You know, we wanted to implement a CRM before we fully, fully, fully needed it. Cause I wanted it to be just standard process and, and have it all in place. You know, before we replicated all over the world, who knows what our next steps will be. And I didn't want to be going after it with, you know, a staff of a hundred, I wanted it to do it while we were relatively small. Um, and I'm telling you the amount of progress that we've made in the last two years and the, the insight into our it, we started with our donor data donor data. Um, we're moving into our student data as you know, but the insight into our donor data.
Speaker 3 00:20:51 And, you know, because we, I don't know if everyone realizes, but, you know, as a nonprofit, our staff is very small. It was just Holly and I up until about five and a half years ago, we hired, you know, our development director, but it, our development team is a team of two and a half people trying to raise three and a half million dollars, which, you know, for an organization of our size is a lot of money. Um, and to be able to have technology help streamline that process and give us insight and save us time. And, you know, the automation for communications, like this has been a game changer for the organization. Um, but I could also see how without people like you, and now it matters. And Tracy and Salesforce, it could have gone sideways, right? Like we could have had this amazing tool that we didn't know how to use. So I really really mean like this relationship and, and the work that we're doing together has done more for our organization, then many things that we have participated in. So
Speaker 2 00:22:00 Thank you that that's so that's so great to hear. Um, I remember being onsite with Tracy, uh, being upfront and launching you.
Speaker 1 00:22:13 We did that all together on site
Speaker 2 00:22:15 And, um, and just, you know, like feeling, um, cause I don't often get to go on site with clients. Most of our work is remote as you know. Um, and so to kind of beat her at the start and you know, I remember having conversation in your, in your office with kids coming in and out, which I love just like school and got out. And it was just suddenly like the whole place just erupted with kids and uh, popcorning off the walls and just, it was great. It's like really, really fun. But, um, I remember wondering like, what is this going to look like in the air? And that was a year that was last, that was March 19. Right? So yeah, it was like a year and a half ago. Um, and your organization has come a long way and I actually want to get into two parts of that, that I think you could speak to from an executive director level one is when we first started the work and in a lot of conversations that you and I have had there, there's an intimidation that I feel like executives have around technology.
Speaker 2 00:23:25 So executive directors lead, you know, they just step out bravely and lead on all sorts of fronts and they learn quickly that they just have to lead, you know, whether that's HR, uh, whether that's finances, you know, all of the different systems, but then when it comes to technology, there's this sense of like, I don't have to have know how to turn on a computer, so I can't leave in this area. And I remember that those conversations early on and feeling like one, one of the, one of the milestones I'm looking for is when Jessica is stepping out in leadership in technology. And I feel like in the last four months I've seen that. And so I want to draw that out a little bit and talk about that transition that you've had and, and ask, do you feel, do you see that in other directors, do you see that in yourself? What is, what does that stem from, um, that, that leadership has a station around technology? Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:24:21 I mean, I'll say the, for me personally, my saving grace was that I had hope, like I had decided in my mind that technology was going to be able to not stand in the place of an employee, but you know, really be able to take a lot of space that we, because I knew we wouldn't be able to hire, you know, several employees, this several employees that we needed. So I had at least that kept me going and hopeful and, and focused on the project was, I'm like, all right. You know, for us in particular individual, donors is, there's all, there's a lot of passion and interest from individuals and we just don't have the bandwidth to keep everybody engaged. And so I had like, come up with this whole plan. I didn't even know if it was gonna work or not that Salesforce was going to help us, you know, support our individuals while we like found the time to go out to coffee with everyone.
Speaker 3 00:25:15 Right. So, so I'm only saying that because I think that was a really important piece for me, was to have a purpose, right? Like why are we using this technology and whether or not that was real it, I mean, it's panned out to be really true, but whether or not my purpose was spot on, it helped me get through all the sticking points. I would say in, in the nonprofit space, I can only speak to that. The reason why technology, I think often is so intimidating is we're not, I don't have a tech, I don't have a tech background nor do we have the funding to hire, you know, a technology person at any level. I can't even hire the, you know, an entry-level technology person. And so in order, you know, how do you convince your staff that this is important work. If I don't even understand it, what, like I have an instinct.
Speaker 3 00:26:04 I I've gotten myself 51% of the way there that this is how we need to go. You know, this is the path we need to go down, but to convince your staff, that's already strapped. You know, doesn't have enough time to do the work they need to do is not paid, you know, what they could be making in other, if they had chosen a for-profit career path. And I'm like, now you gotta, now you gotta learn technology, take the time, do all this data entry, you know, I mean, it's a heavy, it feels like a heavy lift initially. And so I would say that is the most intimidating part. And if you're wrong, you've now just sunk a bunch of money, a bunch of time, a bunch resources. And you know, now where are you at? Right. Um, and I'll say in talking to colleagues that do the work where it's gone wrong is that they quite honestly, and I'm not saying this just because we're on this, this having this conversation, you know, I've said it, a bunch is if you don't have the right implementation partner, and I'm saying this as someone that does not like to spend money ever, I will get, if I can get everything donated, I will, you know, which means mismatch, paint, and furniture.
Speaker 3 00:27:13 I will get all of it donated. This is one of those things you have to pay for. And that is counter to everything that I, that is counter to how I do my job. Right. And so between not having the background and all of that, and, you know, I think it's just, it, people have seen it go sideways a lot. Cause they don't have the right implementation partner. They might not have their like north star of what they're trying to work towards. They don't have one, someone on staff that can pull them in the right direction. Um, you know, and then you land with a system that is like confusing and you never use it.
Speaker 2 00:27:55 I, um, I want to pull up Tracy. I hope it's okay to share something. Um, I don't want to,
Speaker 0 00:28:00 Unless it's on our printout on my desk. No, I will say while you're doing
Speaker 2 00:28:08 Matters, I
Speaker 0 00:28:10 Will say Tim, while you're pulling this up, what I will say Jessica is I actually phoned him because I I've reached a point in sort of my consulting career where all of these prerequisites, you know, they add up, there's some sort of like assessment matrix. And I'm like, you know, when this project landed on my desk, I was like, I am legit scared because I think Jessica actually gets it. But like none of the criteria for what I was considering like a successful long-term implementation were in place at all. And I was like, I called him and I was like, Tim, this actually scares me a little because first of all, what DBG does is so fundamental to Detroit. Secondly, what technology does for DBG is so fundamental to DBG and thirdly, what Salesforce is doing as part of that technology is so fundamental to the technology that, you know, this, this really was one of those moments where, you know, there was a really great alignment of both stars, but also real that what you just said, like that flipped around, what does it mean to pay for technology and how does it change an organization?
Speaker 0 00:29:24 Oh, God's eye in my little heart is elated to hear you say that because that is still a struggle, you know, in 2020, you know, sorry, Tim, I went right over your preparedness. It's a slideshow. It's not a printout, man. I can't
Speaker 2 00:29:41 Say exactly. Um, Jessica, this, this has been one of the most transformative images for me because I'm an economist. And so I love graphs and I feel like I might wander into geek territory on this one. So, um, there's the, but I, I made this, I made this slide to explain to your board the, the reason why it felt too slow, why was taking so long from their perspective and why on boots on the ground, it felt like it was moving way too fast. And I remember I was going to meet with your board, um, to talk through like here's where we're at with the project. And I, I felt like I needed to really say something solid. Um, just because, because it's your board. And I was like, I really want to have Jessica's back here on what's happening. And I want to be able to explain this and I get asked all the time and for crying out loud, we should be able to talk about this.
Speaker 2 00:30:44 So we recreated this. Um, and just to, just to talk this through what we see here is this is the dotted lines implementation and is how much the quantity of input implementation over time. And this is a disruption line that is change disruption that happens to staff. And what happens. Of course now it's going to go backwards or, yep. Okay. Um, what happens is when I use print outs, that disruption line just blows up with, uh, with disruption. So you introduce a new system, you're already busy and disruption happens and they feel that. And meanwhile, you know, you're not moving as fast on, on the implementation. So I know I'm preaching to the choir here on that. I do want to, uh, do you just want to say your yours and my conversations around this dynamic? It's not, it's not just that you found the right partner, it's the, it is a partnership that, that what you want, um, is a place where you're paying attention to what's going on, on both sides. What does this look like and how do we move the needle on that? Um, so that was last March when we talked about through, I feel like your organization in terms of using Salesforce is in a different place now. Um,
Speaker 3 00:32:07 Well I'll say, I mean, that's so true because now we've had some wins, right? So now, because the development team who, I mean, you know, well, Meredith who's our super user. I love that. It was true of her. Yeah. She is incredible. And I mean, she's an English major, former teacher now our development associate and now has decided she's like total technology nerd and loves it, which is great. And we totally lucked out and are developed. But our development director, I mean, she would say if she was sitting here at first was like, what the, why are we doing this thing you are out of your mind? And now is the biggest advocate for, you know, Salesforce in particular. I mean, we were spoiled. I mean, we have an incredible tool and I realize that, but we went from, you know, we had switched from just kind of a glorified Excel spreadsheet to Salesforce.
Speaker 3 00:33:03 Um, and the ju like I said before, I mean, just the wins that we've now experienced. So now as we're getting ready to start to put the student data in the system that helps morale because people are seeing the success of the development team, which I think is like, you know, you can't get a better team kinda bonding opportunity and to lift each other up. And when it gets hard to hear the, have our development mint director say like, man, I know I felt like that too, but it's worth it. I mean, that helps tremendously. And so I will say if there are small organizations like ours implementing Salesforce to not give into, you know, your board who, who, I mean, our board is incredible, honestly incredible, but they're, they worked for big corporations that have massive it teams and whole, you know, teams of people just doing the implementation and support. And so there's a difference of perspective. Right. Um, and so don't give into the pressure of why is this taking so long? You have to go, you have to go at the speed that your team can withstand, like push them just a little beyond that, but much more. I just think we would have broke everyone, you know, they just would've checked out.
Speaker 2 00:34:19 And that, um, you know, a year ago you were, you started with us on guidance. Um, and, and so it's been interesting, like my team and I are looking now at the past year on what you've done. Yep. There you go. So at the end of data, um, that, that first part right there, where data is now telling the truth and you feel like you can trust it. And, um, we were, we were talking about kind of some of the progress on that and, you know, the structure we put in place, which you're not going to get into. But, um, I do, I do remember, um, early on in that process, uh, Ryan, from my team saying like, I'm not sure that Carolyn's like engaged yet or getting it or whatever. And I, and I remember just saying like development director, yes. Sorry, the development. I remember saying, um, there will be a meeting and the lights will come on. And after that, that, you know, it'll happen the light, but the lights will come on and they will get it. Um, and then a couple of weeks later, I got in slack. Um, Caroline got it in the last, you know, COE meeting. And I was like, so happy. I feel like there is something about that transition that you look for in those milestones that are important. So, um, yeah, that's been, that's been,
Speaker 0 00:35:38 I would be remiss if I didn't call out that, you know, contextually around DVG. There's a couple other things that are true. One is, you know, this is going to be our lead recording for Dreamforce 2020, where we're super excited that you were able to join us for this. And a couple of things that Salesforce as a CRM platform does really, really well have also helped DBG immeasurably. Salesforce has built a community of users like no other platform around. And when you are, you know, the loan development director or the loan development associate, and you've got questions in your head, the power of having the ability to ask other users outside of your context for help is enormous. And it mitigates the isolation of that technology implementation for any given person. Also, one thing that Salesforce has made like bang on easy has been here is a systemized set of learning that you can do about the platform and all the things connected to it.
Speaker 0 00:36:46 That's the, that's the trailheads that exist. And it's made our jobs as consultants and partners easier in some ways, because we've been able to say, look, why do I don't want to spend time giving you something that you already have access to? So let's spend our time changing you and let's focus your time on like, here's your homework assignment, go do this Trailhead, go do that. Trailhead. And, and occasionally being now on the service side of DVG, I know we've given that as homework to your staff and been like, this is your homework assignment, and we're not going to talk until it's done. And I think, you know, those are also two highly successful things that have come together around DBG that have really made this journey a rewarding one, uh, for, for all parties.
Speaker 3 00:37:36 Yeah. Yeah. I would totally agree. And, you know, specific specifically around guidance, I would say what's been, um, pretty awesome is, you know, again, we are not CRM experts. We are not technology experts. So, you know, we, we can find herself going down different paths that aren't helpful or not prioritizing certain things like, you know, all of the work that's needed to be done to make sure that then when we run a report, the data is true, right. That, that the data is telling the truth. But at first it felt like, oh my gosh, why do we have to go in and clean up these, you know, hundreds or thousands of records? When I have millions of dollars, I need to raise, I've got this work that needs to, I mean, it's like, are you serious? But having that, having that goalposts and somebody else telling us it's important for this reason.
Speaker 3 00:38:29 Okay. You might not agree, but you still gotta do it, you know? And then again, you have the wind up, oh, I get it. But if left to our own devices, if we were just the customer telling a consultant, we want to do X, Y, and Z. We would've gotten ourselves in a world of trouble. I mean, like we've had many conversations where I'm like, I mean, Tracy, I was to where I'm like, yeah. Uh, I know we're telling you guys to do this thing, but should we really be doing this thing? Because, um, you know, cause I, you said your responses. I don't know if that feels right.
Speaker 1 00:39:04 I love that so much. It's like,
Speaker 0 00:39:09 We'll do something and then one of us will get a phone call from you and you'll be like, okay. So let's, and I never know if we're in trouble or if we're doing something right. Or if this is just one of those moments where you're like, what we mean to say is kind of out of the princess bride. And that is these words. I don't think they mean what
Speaker 1 00:39:32 You think <inaudible> I don't keep the powder.
Speaker 0 00:39:44 I don't think they mean what you think they mean.
Speaker 2 00:39:47 Yeah. I do want to say that is the executive leadership that you Jessica do really well, but you don't know all the time that you're doing really well. Which is to say, because I don't know, I'm calling you to check in, this is, this is just good leadership to me. If you're a leader and you have to be in charge of something and you aren't, you know that isn't your background, that's what you have to do. Um, and so I, I just want to say, and I say it every time you call, thank you for calling. That's a great question. You actually have good instincts because their leadership instincts. And I think that's my point is executives need to actually trust their instincts to ask questions. And I just feel like it, for some reason, technology is like magic. Like, oh, we don't like, there's a cauldron and developers down there stirring it. And there's a spell that comes up. It's not, it's like your, your questions actually really help figure out the nuts and bolts of it. And,
Speaker 3 00:40:45 Uh, I think you have to be willing to say, you don't know. Right. Which sometimes can be intimidating or to like to take the risk in the middle of a guidance meeting or, or, you know, whatever, what were, or any of the conversations we have where I'm like, what were those acronyms? You just like, what did you think? But that's sometimes hard or intimidating and, you know, depending on the partnership, I mean, I feel like we just have a great rapport, but depending on the partnership, I think it can be really intimidating. You know? Um, I just don't care. Like I will all day long say, I don't know, or ask the questions because you can hate me, you know?
Speaker 2 00:41:24 Yeah, no, it's actually right. The product,
Speaker 3 00:41:28 You know, but, but I, I mean, I know in other situations it's intimidating sometimes. Yeah. You know, so, and I think with technology, especially cause it does feel like this, this thing out there that just appears, I mean, it's what it feels like to the average person. And
Speaker 2 00:41:44 Also I know early on in the guidance process that we were starting on, I know you're bored in meetings and wondering like, why am I here? And the reason I know that is because I was born in those meetings going, like, why am I here? But, um, I do wanna, I I'm so appreciative for you calling out like it is true. There's something about throwing, you know, throwing some stuff on the front, um, on the dashboard and saying, this month, we need to get email addresses for these donors. It is so nuts and bolts, but what I'm learning. And I think you've learned too, is executives show up once a month. It's only once a month, 90 minutes. So it's not every week or something 90 minutes a month. Even if the whole meeting is boring, are yours. And my presence on that call actually gives it priority and says, this is important. And we noticed the hard work that's happening. Um, like when Meredith comes back and has knocked out, you know, 200 records that took a lot of time just taking the time to notice that is important. And then the accumulation of 12 months of that, where you're doing three, you know, three data projects a month that you're cleaning up the data, it adds up, you know, it's one of those places where the, you know, it's more tortoise than hair, which is not my style, but actually really produces something good.
Speaker 3 00:43:09 Yeah. I was going to say, and I also love to hear, I've loved hearing over the, you know, the course of time, the evolution in the questions from my team to you guys. Right. And understanding. And I mean, that gives me confidence in our team to know, all right, they got this and you know, and adding more people into those meetings who now are going to start, you know, who are going to have to start to use the system or, I mean, it's just that evolution has been really powerful and I'm pretty, I like, I wish I would have taken snapshots of it so I could put it into a video or something. Cause it's really cool. It's been really cool to watch.
Speaker 0 00:43:48 It was us to be better consultants. And I met a message. I took out of everything you just said, and that is when we alleviate organizations, certain struggles, be they, the struggles of community, the struggles of training, that's the struggles of acquisition of technology. It creates a bigger space for the things that you're calling out. Like I need to ask questions and I will say that propensity of executive leaders in nonprofits to not ask questions and just sort of accept that magic that Tim's talking about at face value is dishearteningly prevalent. But us as consultants and people who service when you ask them, it will always make us better because it's not us saying, oh God, now we have to have an answer for you. It's oh, good grief. We now have to have an answer for why we are us. And that always makes us better because if we're losing you throughout the process, then we're not really successful consultants. Are we?
Speaker 3 00:44:56 Well, right now it's just something popped in my head when you were talking. And I think it's important to say is I think that dynamic stems from our conditioning of there is a very unfortunate power dynamic between non-profits and funders. Right. And normally, and we are very rarely the consumer where we are paying for a service. I mean, organized grassroots organizations like ours, you know, are very rarely paying for a service we're always begging and pleading and getting stuff donated. Like I said, I mean, that's just my norm. That's my life every day, all day. Um, and so trying to shift that in your mind of, oh, I have the power to ask the questions I have, you know, it's okay to say, this is what we need. It's okay. To demand excellence. It's okay to take it. Like all of those things are very counter to what we lived on a daily basis, which is, I mean, I could go on a tangent about why that doesn't help us, you know, that power dynamic,
Speaker 2 00:45:57 The light bulbs aren't going off all over because I have not thought about the relationship between that power dynamic trains non-profits to accept services without pushing back that's right. And then, yeah. And then when you hit some like us and we are expensive and bless you, the very first conversation that we had, I was like, Hey, like let's just talk about money, like straight up first, the first conversation and, and your response to that was was so like, okay, that's great. Let's, let's stay in touch about that. Um, it really helpful. And I appreciate the fact that I, I do feel like there's a difference in the way that you've approached that conversation with me and the way that other other executive directors have. And I haven't been able to put my finger on it, but that it is you're exactly right. Um, yeah. Um, what, so what happened? Like how do we help executive directors be better consumers of those services? Like what, what, what can you say to that? Or have you thought about that?
Speaker 3 00:47:09 I don't have, I don't know exactly. Um, I mean, I'll say that my internal conversations and Cali, how he functions is we do our best. I mean, I know, um, you know, we do have to live within the power structure and there's just the dance that happens, but we do it, but we also wholeheartedly believed that our kids deserve the best. Right. If you, and that doesn't mean marble floors and, you know, and, and gold and silver silverware, but it does mean if you don't see, great. How do you ever strive for great. And, and so, you know, in dialogues that we have with outside people, you know, that is always the frame of mind that we try to think through, talk through. It's like, all right, in order for us to be able to, to have our program be great, that means we have to be able to pay for it, which means we need an incredible tool.
Speaker 3 00:48:04 Like we need to be forward-thinking and have a tool that helps, you know, helps our team and, you know, have a tool that helps us understand the data. So our academic staff can, you know, quickly be able to communicate, but, but it's really coming at it from, from an asset, you know, looking at it through an asset lens instead of a deficit lens. And I think, you know, again, unfortunately in our work, it's very often, you know, a very deficit, that's just very deficit driven. It's, you know, you never have enough money. You never have enough staff. You never have enough time that the communities that we're working with, you know, all of the negative messaging around the, it just, you just get beat down, you know, that message just beats you down. And so it's sometimes hard to pivot, but again, for us, it's like, all right, we are not, we're not falling into that.
Speaker 3 00:48:56 Our kids are amazing. This program is amazing. You know, we're the middle of an energy efficiency project in our building that everyone said would never happen and we've made it, we've made it happen because we want, why shouldn't our kids be in a building where the roof doesn't leak where their solar panels that we can, you know, help pay for the energy costs. So we can have more kids in our building where the walls are insulated. So you don't have to wear 18 layers of like, come on. That's just, you know, that's normal for many communities and, and it's expected for, for us to just suffer because we're in the inner city of Detroit and a nonprofit. I mean, that's crazy. And so I think negative directors to switch that mindset and switch that framing and be brave enough, you know, to take a stand respectfully, take a stand, I think is the only way that we can move the needle.
Speaker 2 00:49:51 I think that's well said. Um, can we talk, I, you, and I've talked to some and trace and I've talked separate conversations about philanthropy and some of the power dynamics that happened because of that. Um, I would love for you to say, like what you've learned about that, what you've studied about that, some of the research that you've done. Um, yeah,
Speaker 3 00:50:13 Yeah, sure. So, yes. Um, so many things to say, I will start here is that I'm in the middle of a research project, working with some researchers from Purdue and Cornell, um, to really dig into, um, to dig into this question is, you know, how does the way philanthropy is currently set up impact those that we're serving? Because from my experience, um, and I hear a lot of people talk about this, but it's, it's a very talked about in a very emotional way. Cause it feels really crummy is like, you know, again, there's in order to raise money, I need to feed into the narrative that our kids and, you know, we do our best not to do this, but it's, it's what happens is that, you know, the problem gets put on the kids in the family. So, you know, our kids can't read our kids, whatever, you know, fill in the blank, right.
Speaker 3 00:51:09 Or whomever you're serving as an organization. There's just, you have to highlight the negative to have a reason to get money, to support the work that you're doing and our families and kids know whether it's us or any other organization, what is being said about them. It is not, I mean, it's obvious. And, um, and again, growing up in the community that I did was about 20 minutes outside of Detroit, one of the wealthiest communities in the country yet my family was, um, you know, uh, evicted from 16 different houses. We had no money. I mean, you know, I didn't live the rich life, but I was exposed to what that feels like and what that looks like and the expectations that are set and, and what was so profound to me was that nobody growing up, nobody ever asked me what negative things were happening in my life.
Speaker 3 00:52:02 And for our kids that we serve everybody. The first thing they're expected to talk about is something negative that has happened in their life, right? Their success is, is based on where the negative thing happened for me. My success was because I was expected to be great. And so I was successful and end of story, nobody pried, nobody pushed. Nobody asked me, right? So the re the research is I want to dig into this and be able to use data to show that the way philanthropy is set up is only reinforcing every negative stereotype. You know, we're reinforcing the problems and the cycles, because, because you're, you've now created a dependency on the problem to get money, to solve the problem. You're not solving anything because I can't go to you and say, man, you know, which is real. All of our kids are straight a students. I mean, not all of our kids are straight a students, but you know, they're super successful. All of our kids are straight a students. You know, if they were like here, all of these issues have been solved. People would be like, great, you,
Speaker 2 00:53:06 You don't need money now.
Speaker 3 00:53:09 Right. But yeah, if you look in wealthier communities, programs like ours exist, the work that we're doing, you know, it exists. It's just done from an asset it's done through an asset narrative, which is, I want my kid to be so great that I'm going to put them in act, sat, tutoring. I'm going to put them in because they're going to be so great versus right. It's accepted
Speaker 0 00:53:31 As part of a de facto existence. Right. And, and that power dynamic shift in terms of what is expected as part of a de facto existence, explain so much about philanthropy in the United States in general. Um, you know, I, I've spent a few years in philanthropy in the late nineties and early two thousands and the propensity towards an insular perspective that then reinforces it it's itself regarding what is quote unquote good and beneficial as held against that negativity that you've just said, it's frustrating. I wanted, there's part of me that like, in my next career, iteration wants to go into philanthropy just to destroy that entirely.
Speaker 1 00:54:18 That's not how it works.
Speaker 3 00:54:20 No. And the, and on the side of the funder, I they're, I mean, they're in a funky space too, because they have to show that they're using their dollars appropriately. Right. So it was like, man, we're funding all these things and, you know, and, and not showing a problem that they're solving, that's really challenging. So, you know, the hope with this research is to, is to have data, to help tell the story and provide some solutions, right? Like it doesn't help to just highlight a problem. I feel like a lot of people know the problem exists, but how do you really help to change it, to solve the problem? And I think that is a big unknown because we're, because again, it's, it just is emotional. So like, I just want you to stop doing it. I don't really care how, you know, I don't care how you stop. I need you to stop. And we're trying to come at it from a perspective of, you know, here, here are one or two things that as a funder, you could change or as a, you know, somebody who's delivering a service delivery model. Like here's what you can change to help kind of meet somewhere in the middle. Um, because I don't think anybody's, I feel like everybody's coming at it with good intentions. I just think it is going, it has gone sideways and we need to pull it back in, you
Speaker 2 00:55:39 Know, when you're not having a conversation about this before, um, like, uh, months ago, I, like I found it so inspiring. I went and wrote, uh, a post about, um, business model, the nonprofit business models that the fundamental under the underpinnings of impact work is actually very different than the underpinnings of for-profit work. That they're like, they're, they're inverted. Um, and so I, I want to just say, please keep doing that work because we do need data to actually start informing the market of that and say like, this is the market, these are people's lives and that's important, but this is also climate change. And, you know, and the need for impact is really growing. And I mean, just to say it, a non-profit is just a tax deduction status, like that is a tax, a checkbox about taxes does not have anything to do exactly. And it does not mean that all of the, you know, all of the ones doing that are doing equally good impact work. And so, you know, we need to be starting to think about this as impact work rather than, you know, tax deductible work, which
Speaker 0 00:56:54 Raw feel-good charitable work, which I think is a helpful motivator, but not a very useful business model because it sets up organizations for both high power dynamics. And also like that's well said, you know, high paradynamics and also starvation
Speaker 2 00:57:14 All at the same time. Yep. Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:57:17 Well, yeah. And I, and I think, you know, that funders, or, you know, whomever are who, the people who are making an investments and organizations like ours need to value the roles like mine. Do you know? Because what happens is nobody wants to pay for the overhead, but you know, what's counted as overhead, but if you don't have people doing the work, the mission, the mission can not exist or grow. And Kylie can, you know, the Kylie's of the world can not double down and be true to the work. If they're worrying about how, how they're going to keep the lights on. Not that he doesn't worry about that, but I mean, it is an equal, we, you know, we work in partnership and in tandem with each other. Um, and if, if you only have, if, you know, if you don't believe in that and don't fund that and don't support that the work doesn't thrive. And unfortunately, very often that is not paid for. Nobody wants to hear that. And,
Speaker 2 00:58:19 Um, and you know, um, that it just, I wish we would stop saying donors and start saying investors and actually treat funders as investors, which is to say, you're investing in an outcome and here is what that outcome is. And that's not a nice story with some pictures, which is great. Go ahead and include that. But what we really want to see is this, you know, this program has achieved this success in these metrics, and there's some relationship between funding and, you know, outcomes. And in the process we need high, we need expertise and expertise isn't free. Um, so that whole, like, I just, it just makes me shrivel up inside when I see like every dollar goes to a kid, no, it doesn't that can't it's is a lie. And it perpetuates a very dangerous way of marketing that. And, uh, you know, which is just lying about marketing. Like that is not actually true. They're just doing fancy stuff in their books to make it seem true.
Speaker 1 00:59:21 It also takes it right back to your comments
Speaker 0 00:59:23 At the top of the hour, that nonprofits should pay for technology because it's creating a data point, it's creating an investment point and it's actually revealing this, not hiding it that's right. You know, which
Speaker 2 00:59:38 Was why not. And the quality of that technology matters, which I do want to say Salesforce is actually a very high quality, um, yeah. Uh, platform that is delivering, you know, both through its technology and its, um, its uh, partner ecosystem and just the community that has been built up around it is just a really powerful, um, platform and has been doing this for a really long time. Um, you know, so yeah, Jessica, um, I I'm really grateful for all of your thoughts for the partnership over the last, um, you know, year and a half. And I'm hoping for more years in the future, please continue doing this work and, um, championing these messages. It's really, really inspiring and important.
Speaker 3 01:00:29 Well thank you. And the feeling is mutual for sure. We love you guys.
Speaker 0 01:00:33 I am just super happy. Should I do our title? It's your ID card. We do this end card now and it's kind of just becoming a tradition.
Speaker 4 01:00:46 Uh, so there, there we are. Lo-fi all the way, right? I'm Tim lucky. I'm
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