Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 Welcome everyone to another episode of why it matters. I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack director of innovation here at now at matters, joined by my cohost, Tim.
Speaker 2 00:00:19 Hi everybody. I'm Tim Lockie CEO at now. It matters really glad to be here. Tracy.
Speaker 1 00:00:24 It's a actually today is a really cool day to record because our guest today has become a friend and confidant. I think to us both, uh, I will honestly say, I cannot remember how he landed on our deck. It was just like, there was pre-image and Postmates in my timeline. Um, but I'm, I'm super happy to have you on the show today. Mitch, why don't you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about who you are and what pond is doing because join pond.com has been your life and our privilege to share the journey of over the past year.
Speaker 3 00:01:08 Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm Mitch Stein. Um, my pronouns are he him? Uh, I'm the CEO and co-founder of pond. Uh, it's where nonprofits get paid to learn about software. Uh, our goal is to make the best tech accessible to every organization in the world, uh, and maximize technology for all the causes we care about most. Um, what that really means on the platform is that any nonprofit can join. Um, they can do so anonymously. They can share their needs, their questions around any type of tech and technology they're using their organization. Um, and providers of those services can reach out to, uh, pitch them their product, help them with their question, um, and they actually get paid for engaging with them. Um, what we've done is basically take the marketing model where companies pay, um, to find potential customers based on who fits the right persona and saying, what if that could benefit the potential customer directly, uh, make the process easier for them and actually build up a budget for them to spend on these things that we know are so hard to get budget for. Um, so happy to dig in more, um, but that's kind of the overview of the platform. And, um, we launched in March of 2021. Um, we have over 300 non-profits on the platform at 170 different technology companies. Um, and we're just continuing to grow and expand who we're working with and what we're doing.
Speaker 2 00:02:34 That's great. Um, I am looking forward to digging into the, into what pond is, but before we get there, uh, I think people need to know more about you. So I know you were climbing the ladder at Goldman stacks. You were going places doing things. You are like hitting that the high point of what everybody considers like the perfect. And then, and then you stopped, you stopped that journey and you went in a completely different direction. So I think a lot of people are asking what happened.
Speaker 3 00:03:11 Let's do something terrible happened. Uh, no, no, I, it is a good question and it's, it's hard to explain in like a resume or CV, like what the, what happened between those new positions. But now I was, uh, an investment banker at Goldman, um, in New York for almost seven years. Um, I had worked in a few different positions. Uh, I was, did a stint where I was actually directly working for the CEO when Lloyd Blankfein, um, for his last year and a half managing his client strategy. So engaging with businesses and, and people across the firm and around the world, um, and moved from there into technology banking. Um, and I think that role was really pivotal for me and opening my eyes to the great big world out there. I think when you do two internships out of college with a company, and then you're just your head, is there kind of in the sand, it's hard to get out of that and, and see what all is out there.
Speaker 3 00:04:05 Um, and I think in that role was just so global in every sense of the word. Um, I really got opened the aperture on what people were doing. Um, and it is a lot of why I wanted to go into the technology space as a banker, um, and where I made my kind of next move. And I got started there, um, and was working with a lot of companies now that were founded by people like me. You know, it wasn't some, it wasn't some crazy concept that, uh, you know, I think we all get this image in our head that a founder of a company or a CEO is some like other worldly unattainable thing. Um, and I think the combination of having worked directly with a CEO of a big company and then working with a lot of entrepreneurs in my job, I was like, these are human beings. They put their pants on one leg at a time. Um, and it's something I could do actually, when I left the job with Lloyd, um, he sort of had like an exit interview where he was asking about how it went and what I liked and what my biggest lesson was from working with him. Uh, and I told him my biggest learning was, I think I can do your job. And I'm like, I don't mean, I don't mean like today or even curly palsy
Speaker 2 00:05:18 Too. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Speaker 3 00:05:21 Not even necessarily like this company, but I mean, I've seen on the other side of the curtain, like I know you obviously worked hard and you're super smart, but in 30 years, there's no reason I couldn't be doing that too. Um, and so I think that it was just part of like building this possibility for me. And then, um, I got into that tech space. So working as a banker and covering a lot of marketplace businesses and simultaneously outside of work, which isn't as, um, present in a resume, but I was doing a lot of fundraising, um, and board service for the LGBT center in New York, which had grown to be a huge passion area of mine. Um, and I was spending so much time and energy fundraising and working with the organization. Um, and I had all these people being like, you're incredible this, like, this is clearly what you actually care.
Speaker 3 00:06:10 And like, I felt my like heart more drawn to that. And I was like, I'm not sure I would be like best suited to be working at the organization or an organization necessarily, but I really care about the impact of the work they're doing. Um, and as I looked, especially around fundraising and the tools they were using and the tools that were out there, the hidden costs and all these, like their frustrations, they were having moving between tools. It was just like really frustrating to me to see as a supporter and board member. Um, and so that's where I just started digging in and I started like obsessing over nonprofit tech. Um, and the first thing I did was actually propose a nonprofit tech platform that Goldman could build. So I pitched this product internally that would have been a nonprofit specific banking platform. So it was a commercial, digital commercial banking platform, especially made for the nonprofit space, which there was, you know, totally open brand space.
Speaker 3 00:07:07 There's no like non-profit bank, um, and obviously a very big market with a lot of cash. Um, and so we worked on that for about six months, put a team together, internally, went through all these pitches, got to the final round, did a week long offsite with McKinsey, um, and got to pitch to our, my investment committee. And I thought that was going to be my next job. So I had sort of like mentally dissociated with my current role. And I was like moving on. And I, um, ended up finding out that we didn't get funded. And they just said, you know, great work and great idea. We just don't think the go to market is possible. We don't think it is feasible for a big company to make a meaningful investment in a product that serves the sector because it's too hard to acquire customers in this space.
Speaker 3 00:07:53 And I obviously was like devastated and my initial reaction to this devastation, uh, and just like sobbing, crying at work, which I'd never done before, which I, how I knew how much this meant to me. Um, but had it like circle up with the team I had internally and they were just like, you're not stopping here. Like, are you kidding? Like, look at everything that you've learned and what you've accomplished just in this little project here, like, you're going to keep going, like, let's talk about this. And it was, they had to tell me, like, I could go do that. Um, and as we talked through it, we were like, okay, the go to market's a problem. Let's make the go to market are the business we want to build. Like, let's make a marketplace that truly wraps around and is the infrastructure for the sector.
Speaker 3 00:08:37 Um, if you could create that, if it was like Expedia, think about what Expedia, um, did for travel or like CarGurus and Carvana had done for cars. Like, could we do something like that around all the tools and services, nonprofits consume, which are completely opaque? No one knows who's using what, why pricing. It is all completely, um, clandestine and whenever information is not readily available, people are getting taken advantage of, or they don't have equal access. Um, and so that became like the driving force. And I spent about five months trying to plan in my free time on like Saturdays, basically of what the business could be or look like in hindsight, it's like shocking how little I actually had sorted out when I was like, yeah, I'm just gonna throw this seven year career away and started now. Um, but I put my two weeks notice in, at the end of February, 2020, and I walked out the door on March 6, 20, 20, and,
Speaker 1 00:09:35 Well, that was an outstanding time for the world.
Speaker 3 00:09:39 Yeah. It was like had catch-ups scheduled and was, and people were like canceling, or I remember doing some of the, like the elbow bumps in the office and then it was like, boom, five days later, shut down.
Speaker 1 00:09:52 Wow. And it was this, this was in New York, right? You were living in New York at the time.
Speaker 3 00:09:57 Yeah. So I actually went out of town right after I quit to like, be on vacation for a few weeks. Um, and I landed in Miami. I remember. And it was like, the NBA season was canceled, like New York city, public schools shut down. And I was like, uh, oh. Um, and so my parents and I grew up in Indiana and so my parents were like, you're not going back to New York. It was like a war zone at that point. Um, so they were like, just come back to Indiana and stay with us. And I'm still here a year and a half later
Speaker 1 00:10:28 Mitch, something, I just need to ask you, what, how long were you on the board of the LGBT center there? Like, what was your tenure time?
Speaker 3 00:10:36 Um, so I've been working with them for three and a half years now, I think, but I was like, um, with the event that I worked in was cycle for the cause the Northeast. So I was doing that, um, event with them, um, and kind of a leader with that for throughout three years before I joined the board to
Speaker 1 00:10:53 If I ever told you this or not. But I mean, I have family that would, that I grew up with out on long island. And I have sort of a very now sort of long distance romance with New York city. I went to grad school at NYU for a couple of years, but one of the organizations I worked for that may be familiar with you, you may be familiar with, or it might've preceded. You was a, I worked for a private foundation out there before they paid out called the Paul Rapaport foundation. And Paul Rappaport was one of the co-founders of the LGBT center in New York. And it was a really great experience, uh, to be that connected to that world for a few years before I moved on to the west coast. And, you know, I do have a very sort of romantic idea of New York city now, but I know very well.
Speaker 1 00:11:51 I'd never want to live there again. Um, but that experience working with a Rapaport foundation, you know, in the sort of 1990s, um, you know, was really Seminole in kind of grounding me in philanthropy in grounding me in that world. And I met all kinds of neat people through that, um, up to, and including some of the gals who started like star network and, you know, some of the old timers who were left over from the Stonewall days. So yeah, this is a really fun time. And I'm always reminded of that moment in my life when I talked to you, it sounds like right, you were deeply involved with the same place.
Speaker 3 00:12:35 So, yeah, and I, I love that expression, like getting anchored in philanthropy or anchored in impact. I think that was, you know, asked Tim, you asked and I kind of had a meandering story, but I think a lot of that takeaway for me was realizing that it could be where I brought my skills to where I cared. You know, it, it didn't feel like, you know, me trying to go be an ed or sort of like that, that was necessarily the skills I brought, but if I could help think at a macro level about the market and, um, how to bring change at scale and a business model, creative business model, thinking around it, that could be a way I could bring myself really authentically and valuably to the sector. And that was kind of what made the push. And I think you meant you made the point about making money.
Speaker 3 00:13:20 I think when you're these, for me, when I was single, no kids living in the city, obviously making like a lot of money, even I was just like, this is what for, you know, it was like that wasn't I think when you're young and that happens, it's like, you get kind of like you dissociate a bit from the value of that. And a lot of people get into a, um, oh, well now I've got a house and kids and like spouse. And so like now I got to just keep making more. And when you're not on that track, I don't know. I started to get a little bit like, what is the point? You know, it's, um, I got a little bit like dissociated with it all.
Speaker 2 00:13:56 Um, that's super interesting. Thanks for the, thanks for your candor about that. And I think of it, it just makes so much sense of correspond was started by an investment banker, right? Like that that's, that is who that has to be. There was a lot of us that could be executive directors. I couldn't, I don't know. I put the us there. A lot of others, it could be executive directors, but I do, I think that not everybody has the vision, uh, the high level of perspective that you've had, that, that I gain every time I talk with you, do you think McKinsey was right? Is the, is there, is it harder? Like, is this ecosystem more opaque? Is customer acquisition harder and why, and how did McKinsey know that? I know like they know everything, but how did they know that anyway,
Speaker 3 00:14:42 It was the, um, like the Goldman, like the investment committee at Goldman that McKinsey was like our supporters and they were like, sorry. Um, yeah, maybe behind the scenes, they were telling them. And I don't know. Um, but no, I it's, it's a great question. And it's something like, you know, we talk candidly about the challenges of early startups and early companies where there definitely are days you're like, maybe they're right. Maybe you can, you just not get to this customer base. Um, but no, I think I do think they're right. That it is challenging. And I think that's where the value in what we're trying to build is like, if it weren't challenging, there wouldn't be as much value in what we could unlock and, you know, if we're able to build it. And so it's one of those things where people point out your, your biggest problem as a company or as an idea.
Speaker 3 00:15:32 And it's like, exactly, you know, when you're at the early stage, you're like, yes, I agree with you. That's why we're doing this. And it's why you need to, um, be in that experimental stage, right. Where you can act fast. Like, and that was the message from Goldman to was like, we're a big company for us to put a big investment into a new product is a big deal for a startup to be tinkering around with different approaches and new models. I mean, that's what we've been doing for a year and a half over and over again of just like falling forward and trying new things. Cause that's what it's going to take to figure something out that is very fragmented, very opaque. I mean, to get at your question of like, why that is or what the reality is in the sector. I think it is, um, it's so localized and there's, it's so complex and there's so many stakeholders it's not as straightforward as for-profit business.
Speaker 3 00:16:27 Right. And you have so much more involved. Um, and they tend to be more grassroots, local organizations. And so you're looking around you for help advice, expertise, direction. Um, and so that's why you get these pockets of knowledge everywhere. But as we all know in discussing privilege, like that's how knowledge also gets sequestered away from other people. Um, and so you, I just, now that I've met with so many people in this space, I think so often about like, you know, Tim, I know you're presenting at the Montana nonprofit association conference. Okay. What are they communicating or working on or doing? Um, that's getting repeated in 49 other states and maybe hundreds of other cities or local AFP chapters. And I think they're all, obviously all doing phenomenal stuff, but what is there that could be United amongst them and what, what could harness all of the like knowledge and activity in one place where it is more accessible to everybody?
Speaker 2 00:17:28 Yeah. I'm going to ask one, one more question. I started Tracy and I'm like,
Speaker 1 00:17:32 No, it's fine. I mean, no, you're, you're so much more of the economists than I am. I'm like looking at this through an entirely different lens. So yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:41 So the other, the other piece that's really intriguing about that is why like, is it actually a different sector? Uh, and I ask myself this all the time, like, you know, and you, and I've gone back and forth on this. And my standard line on this is in the for-profit you do as little as you can for as much as you can in the non-profit do as much as you can for as little as possible. So those have to create different dynamics in markets. I'm always curious, like where do you see the effects of those is, is that hyperlocalized one of those places is the, you know, is the opaqueness opacity opacity? Is that even a word? Okay, correct. Word capacity. Thank you. Is the opacity of this ecosystem, you know, is it related to the fundamental economics of it?
Speaker 3 00:18:33 Yeah. And your first question is a phenomenal one of like, is it a sector? And it's one of those where like it is because we say it is, you know, it's like, it is a, it is a manifested reality where it's its own sector. Um, went because we, you know, we, because of those similar models, but the reality is if you find a non-profit, that is a, you know, housing, nonprofit that has a business model akin to other housing developers. Now it's more comparable, you know, they've leaned into their, um, for-profit comparison or counterpart, and now they're part of the housing sector. So I think it, I don't, I would say it doesn't have to be, but it is, uh, today it would be kind of my perspective on that. Um, but I, I think the, to your question about is that contributing to the opacity?
Speaker 3 00:19:22 Um, I think so. I think that the, what you described, I guess I would sum up as a scarcity mindset doing as much as you can with as little, um, you know, I think that stymies innovation in a lot of ways where you're not, um, necessarily like the, the motivation is so crystal clear in a for-profit setting to be seeking efficiency and innovating. And like, even if we think that's wrong, that they're doing it for the almighty dollar, like everyone's aligned, you know, you know, there's like, whereas it's when your that's not your motivation, and then you have something really squishy or that's harder to define that you're going after it. It becomes like, you know, the energy is moving in a lot of directions, uh, in harder to harness in one direction. So, I mean, maybe part of the prop, the opacity is the fact that it's 150 different sectors in cap captured in one. And there's no way to, to meaningfully, uh, so far there's been no way to meaningfully bring them together in a centralized system.
Speaker 1 00:20:31 Well, I mean, to that point, Mitch, and I mean, this is where my mind is on what you're on about with pond. Uh, I mean, first of all, I'm having a little bit of a reaction to like the non-profit world is a world because we say it is like, that puts it in my head a little closer to Bitcoin. Um, and I actually don't think that's true, right? Like, I mean, I have, you know, a few hundred dollars in Bitcoin because it amuses me and I was showing the kids the other day. I'm like, look, I will say Bitcoin, Bitcoin, Bitcoin. And it will go up. And I did. And they were looking at my phone and they were like, oh, right. Like, and I'm like that that's truly an economy of goodness knows what, but I think you're getting closer to something. When you say the way that nonprofits get, in my opinion, sub verticalized, uh, around the communities and around the needs that they actually have to solve for because of the gross economic inefficiencies in the United States, at least there is sort of an opacity to that world because nobody's got the time to communicate.
Speaker 1 00:21:47 And I personally believe that software sellers to nonprofits, at least ones that are too focused on profit capitalize on that opacity. They're like, we're going to make you feel as special as possible in this moment to close the deal. We'll worry about the consequences later. And we'll let our partners deal with the cleanup. And I think what you are trying to do is what California has been trying to do for 40 years. And that is, are, you know, create God's honest sunshine laws for the nonprofit ecosystem, by saying you don't have to live in that world where your own execution strategy limits your ability to communicate. I'm trying to create a democratic communication strategy around what it means to be serviced by technology. And, and I love that, um, it dovetails into my personal high horse around data for nonprofits, but what, you know, what I'm curious about Mitch has been, what has been the reaction of other people in the nonprofit ecosystem? I mean, you could probably say Tim and I are long timers, but what has been the reaction of other folks who've been around the block a while to what you've been working on?
Speaker 3 00:23:16 Yeah, it's a great question. And I would, I would first acknowledge that it's been amazing how many people have connected with me and coached me. And I mean, I think count the two of you at the top of that list of, um, just sharing experience, knowledge, expertise, willing to hear me out, correct me. Like I'm so receptive to that. I think a lot of innovation, um, needs to come from people with different backgrounds or experiences, but it also needs like any sense of arrogance in that has to take a backseat. And I think I've strived for that. I've not always done it. I've learned my lesson when I haven't. Um, but just trying to be a sponge of learning from people and taking that all in to come up with a new idea is, is just the process I've ascribed to that. I, you know, I think ultimately will be the way, um, I think there, I would put people in a few different camps.
Speaker 3 00:24:10 I think there are people like the two of you that are like, just really excited about change and progress in the sector. And so, um, even if it's not perfectly sorted yet, they're like, yeah, we want to be, um, engaged with this and there's something here and you're onto something interesting and you're providing value. Um, and then I would say there's kind of another camp, which I would put into the, like, why it's tough to innovate in this space is, you know, if you don't have it all solved yet, then like, come back to me when you do, or like come back to me when you're successful. Um, and not necessarily wanting to, or having the bandwidth to engage and be a thought partner in the process, um, which that's okay. Like not everyone can, um, but there certainly are, have been some moments of frustration when there's, um, feedback.
Speaker 3 00:25:03 That's like, okay, this is great. What you're doing around discovery and helping Google pay, but you're not doing anything around change management. And I'm like, no, we're a few months old. We were like, we, we want to do it all. But you know, that's a, uh, an important startup, um, best practice is like, find the thing you can improve and make it narrow and do that really well and then expand from there. But that's tough in the nonprofit space because people want holistic, they want problems solved. It's very similar to politics where it's hard to get credit for incremental progress. You've got to like have the whole slate of everything done. Um, and so, yeah, that's been the rub I've found in, in the innovation in this space is sometimes it is, it is hard to take those incremental steps of progress.
Speaker 1 00:25:55 So I will honestly confess and say that something that stymies me sometimes when I look at what any given institutions doing is, you know, very early on in my career, I was trained. Don't look at what's in front of you, look at where that's going to scale two and five years in 10 years in 20 years. And the problem with that is that it can be super predictive, but it's also super hard to not see the gaps, right? Because you're like, holy cow, you need to turn, you know, four degrees to the left right now. Otherwise there's going to be a gaping hole in six years. And, you know, I've been very privileged to work with a of early stage startups through now it matters. And in some ways you're the tail wagging the dog. And in other ways, you're just trying to keep the dog on the leash on the sidewalk when it comes to how you develop as a company. Um, what I would love you to just kind of talk more about is that journey from being where you are as a business, because I don't think it's understood by a lot of the nonprofit ecosystem, what it truly means to be a startup serving nonprofits.
Speaker 3 00:27:19 Yeah, absolutely. I there's this, um, cognitive dissonance that you sort of have to assume as a founder, where to like you have a vision and you know what that in-state could be, and it's hard for someone else. Like you said, you're going to notice all the gaps and holes along the way, but if you had that perspective as a founder, then nothing would ever get done, right. You kind of have to suspend some disbelief and just understand that you're going to tackle those problems as it gets them. For me, small side story. For me personally, that's been one of the hardest parts about fundraising for a startup from the investor community is I think when you're in your own world and bootstrapping things, it's easy, it's a lot easier to like buy into your own vision. And you like, of course it's not logical like startups, aren't logical, it's logical to go get a job again, not have to worry about things.
Speaker 3 00:28:14 And there are like missing pieces that you accept that you'll figure out in future date. When you talk to an investor, they've got this logical expectation of like, uh, understanding the next 12 steps and things that are going to happen and poke holes. And then you start to focus on that as a founder and it can start to be rather defeating to be like, well, yeah, you're right. Like maybe I should have focused on that more when the answer is probably like, no, you kind of need to have some of that. Uh, some of that disbelief to keep going and, and to inspire others with the same vision and it, and it can, you know, it's hard to keep that up at a a hundred all the time. Um, so I think that's just, that's a general challenge, um, for startups in general. Um, I think in the nonprofit space, it's tough, I've found it's tough because the trust is so hard to earn and establish.
Speaker 3 00:29:10 Um, and I find that the stakes are very high for people to engage with someone new. So it's, um, and try a new tool or do something new. Um, their time is limited. People have really limited bandwidth. Um, they're generally stretched, especially in last year and a half, a lot of burnout, a lot of churn. Um, and so I think that is, is tough, innovating, and building new products is reliant upon engaging with potential customers and, and having that input, uh, and having those early adopters. And so that is definitely a challenge of how you get that kind of early engagement from people and get it in a real way. So the other problem I've encountered, um, there's a, a great book called the mom test and it's for, um, startup founders. And it's basically a guide to say, like, if you have a startup idea, don't ask your mom.
Speaker 3 00:30:06 If she thinks it's a good idea, because of course you'd be like, yes, we do. That sounds great. Um, but, and I've, I've grown and learned that over time, you know, we've gone through some iterations of pond, was previously a different company, a different name, a different platform. And I think in that first iteration, um, I did a lot of like, Hey, I've got this great idea. What do you think to a lot of people in the nonprofit space? And everyone's like, yeah, it sounds great. So you don't really get the feedback that you need to test that product market fit. Um, and so that's just been an important list to me. Cause I had a lot of conversations where I know there were people on the other side of it being like, oh, that's really nice. This guy is trying to do something nice for nonprofits.
Speaker 3 00:30:47 I should support him and encourage him. But what would actually be better is like, what would you really do? Like how would you really use this? What do you really need? Um, and that was an important lesson. That's, that's hard to learn to not because you also feel like you need to, you need to validate why you're talking to them, right? So you need them to think like there's pressure on me to be like, oh, I have to present to them a cool idea that they're opining on murals. They don't want to talk to me, which that might be the case sometimes, but that's what you want to try to avoid is getting in those more honest conversations to learn about, learn from people. Um, and then, you know, be engaging with them around a product when you have it. And again, learning from them, not, um, letting them pull you in your product development versus pushing on others.
Speaker 1 00:31:34 I will say before I let Tim jump in. I'll just say trust was something. When I first met you that I did struggle with a little bit, and it is because of my years in this ecosystem. And you know, I, it's hard when you're doing exactly what you described in that is I have this idea and I want to know how it's going to land. And, you know, for someone like me, like I haven't been a non-profit executive for a long time, but I have been a tech executive for, you know, an equal sum of years now, if not more. And, and that was my reaction. I was like, oh God, if I have to walk another sort of be sought sort of white guy through this world just to get to the end point of them saying, this sounds super complicated, but thank you for your input. Like I will call my eyes out. Right. I really will. And I think, you know, what has differentiated your work is you have been willing to dig into like, okay, there power and privilege embedded in that question in the first place. And the first pivot you made was I felt like a recognition of that. Um, but yeah, it's been, I do agree with you that trust, authenticity and value are the currencies of the nonprofit world, including for businesses that serve them.
Speaker 2 00:33:03 Yeah. And goodness,
Speaker 3 00:33:06 Just a quick point on that. And we can talk more about it later, but I think those are values for any business. Like that's something that I keep coming back to over and over again, the lessons I've learned in how to better serve the nonprofit space with our company. I'm like looking like looking back at the rest of the world and being like, yeah, everyone should be focusing on these values and these business practices. Um, and that's a lot of my narrative, um, around, you know, historically things have flowed downhill to the nonprofit space in terms of innovation and dollars. You make your money in the for-profit world and then you give it away. You build amazing tech for for-profit businesses, and then you kind of shoehorn it into a profit use case. Um, and I think we are at a pivot point where innovation is going to start happening around nonprofits and around impact and around good in a way that is going to be applicable to the broader university organizations, because we're, you are going to see the nonprofit cause and organization merge with businesses. Like I've viewed that meeting in a middle place in the future. Um, and I think that's what I've been on a dicey you like say Tracy, what I've been on about particularly in investor conversations, like this is where innovation is happening and thinking about, I think I'm a little bit ahead of the head of the curve. People aren't necessarily seeing it from my perspective just yet.
Speaker 2 00:34:35 Yeah. Um, that leads me to a question that, uh, I think it'd be really helpful, which is what is pond in your own words? What is pond? Why is it needed? What have you learned so far? And where's it going?
Speaker 3 00:34:51 Yeah, of course. Um, you know, pond is the, the marketplace for nonprofit tools and services. Um, and what I mean by that, because marketplace, I appreciate is a, a bit of a like jargony word. Um, but you know, it is a way for any nonprofit to have equal access to the knowledge awareness of the options that are out there. Um, and more affordability of the things that are relevant to them. And the way that we've gone about doing that is to say, because it's so hard to sell into the sector. Um, companies, businesses are spending a lot of money in a lot of different directions on marketing to get to these potential customers, but in, so doing it kind of alienates that audience they're getting hounded and, you know, um, getting a barrage of cold calls and pop-up ads and spam emails, that's not targeted.
Speaker 3 00:35:46 It's just because I work at a nonprofit, all of a sudden this is relevant to you. So there's this like dissonance between how we're trying to market to the audience and spending a lot of money on it, which is driving up the cost of our products. Um, and then from the non-profits perspective, there's nowhere for them to go that they trust. They're just going to a friend and asking what they use or spending a bunch of money on a consultant that they trust it's this, this trust that is not being broken through by that marketing spend. And so what we said was, okay, what if we let that nonprofit leader, uh, put up their needs or questions in this space where they can be quote unquote marketed to, uh, in a safe way that protects their identity and all the rest, but the vendor who meets their needs can reach out and flag their product or service to them and want to connect.
Speaker 3 00:36:32 And if they do that value of the marketing value of that lead, that new potential customer, we're saying that should go to that person. Like they should be able to monetize their own intent, their own time and attention, and the same way that Google, LinkedIn, and Facebook do. Um, and so in setting that up and sort of a simple way, uh, we've learned that people can save a tremendous amount of time and actually sourcing the options that are relevant to their need. Um, and on average, people are saving 50% on the products they're actually acquiring through pond to no discount to the vendor. It's all just based on them capturing that marketing expense for themselves. So just a use case as a case study is someone comes on, they want their first CRM. They've never had one before. These are the priorities of the organization, other tools that they use, they can lay that all out in their profile.
Speaker 3 00:37:26 Um, they'll generally have five or six options reach out and explain their product and why they should connect. If they meet with five, they have $500 in their account, uh, with streamlined how they connected with everyone. And they've now got all this information side by side to make a decision and they're going to save $500 on whatever they end up purchasing. Um, so there's just nothing else. Like it, there's no other way that you can save time and energy in a search process, and then you're getting paid for that engagement. But it's because of how we've turned that marketing behavior on its head to better benefit the sector.
Speaker 2 00:38:04 Yeah, that's, it's super innovative. And it's really helpful to know about the, you know, the story with Goldman Sachs and trying to, you know, trying to get a market on that and realizing, okay, the need in the market is actually customer acquisition, which is why you've identified. Okay. The value add here is to actually focus on what is customer acquisition, which I think separates you from just like a traditional aggregator of which there are lots, right? So there are other aggregators out there that are not marketplaces. How would you describe the difference between what you provide and just a, another aggregator?
Speaker 3 00:38:43 Yeah, I think, um, most aggregator services are advertising platforms. So like that's where they're driving their value. I mean, you think about software review sites. There's obviously a bunch of them. Um, they're not actually participating in the commerce, the purchase, so the connection is made and then it goes off platform for us, since those funds are still are going to the purchaser, the customer they're now we're now a part of that broader journey. Um, and so we're a part of the actual sale, which we would want it, that's how you build a marketplace versus an ad platform aggregator. Um, it obviously takes scale and, and building that up and it has to be beneficial to both sides. Like that's the big challenge marketplaces as you always have these two masters, right? You've got the chicken and egg, like getting both supply and demand, um, to the, to the platform is always a huge challenge.
Speaker 3 00:39:40 Um, but it's, um, it is really differentiating for us to have that account structure. Uh, and that's the real benefit to the individual to use it too, is they're, they're getting that monetary benefit for their time and attention that we can see actually aligns to a better experience by taking out the advertising component where it's in their control. And they sort of dictate the engagement interaction they have with people on the platform. And it was a direct result. Like you said, Tim, if we actually started with the traditional aggregator and learned that people didn't have the time to engage with it, they, uh, it was very uncomfortable and it took a lot of effort from them. And so there was this big barrier there and the money was a big barrier. If you didn't think you had money to spend in, why are you shopping, um, and trust, you know, being able to do it anonymously and have it be on your terms and your time, um, and have us as a bit of an intermediary to help in the process, uh, has been huge. And I think there's a lot more to learn from that. I think another big layer that can get into is expertise. Now, how do you, now that you've set up a better process, how do you introduce more like accessible expertise around it? Um, but you know, that's where I think we can definitely grow into I,
Speaker 1 00:40:57 Okay, go ahead. Oh, I was going to say Mitch, that actually, it was half of a very abstract question I wanted to ask you because the other half is super abstract and you can be like, I have no idea, or I don't want to talk about that. And that's okay. But like I have started observing this trend of traditional sort of software developer platform ISV. However you wanted to do that, literally picking up their own services arm, uh, and you know, to that point, you, my, my reaction to that is great. That's going to work as long as all the people you acquire stick around because the second they leave there goes your domain expertise. So the 50% of what I wanted to ask you is, is how can we create something that actually values domain expertise in the structure that you're proposing? And the other 50% of one I wanted to ask you, which is super abstract right now, is that I've also observed, you know, the nonprofit world at large is really having to confront issues of what it means to do quote unquote good in the world that is in the fallout of the January six coup attempt here in the United States, that is in the fallout of the Trump administration.
Speaker 1 00:42:23 And that's in the fallout of some huge gaps that major platforms have made around enabling hate and enabling organizations that detract from liberties. Do you have any idea how you're going to even start thinking about those issues on pond is the other 50% of that question? All
Speaker 3 00:42:47 Right. Well,
Speaker 1 00:42:49 Easy one first, Hey, let's just throw a line landmine out there. Good niche.
Speaker 3 00:42:54 Uh, let me, let me separate the two.
Speaker 1 00:42:57 Yeah, totally.
Speaker 3 00:43:00 But now to your first question, I, um, I was just chatting with some other, uh, another founder of mine. That's a mentor this week and we were talking about, um, you know, the SAS environment is becoming like ever more complex. There's these like niche products that are doing, um, specific things really well. And that tends to be where the environment's going and moving open source. Like that stuff isn't necessarily new, but as that proliferates, um, it becomes more complex for any one company to service that whole ecosystem. And I think there's also an opportunity for more niche expertise from a service level, um, that you would want in a more like all you can eat option to have service. So, um, being able to say the person that's the expert at integrating HubSpot with slack, that doesn't work at slack or HubSpot, but they're like an independent, I see this, this ecosystem of independent providers, um, either like between platforms or expertise on a given platform, um, that doesn't need to live at a company.
Speaker 3 00:44:03 And in fact, I think that can really help the ecosystem of tools. Um, one vision I kind of have is similar to the ecosystem of service providers around the Salesforce, which obviously has been like a huge contributor to their explosion as a company and their success. But what if you could do that around a vertical? So in the nonprofit space, what if you've had a similarly like centralized, engaged, tracked, verified, validated, trained, all those on a platform that kind of is a service layer over the complexity that we're trying to solve for, because the reality is none of this stuff is just a tool. And there's a reason my hypothesis that tech in general, people feel it's behind in the nonprofit space in terms of adoption and utilization is I think people are much more relational in the sector too. And so there's, they veer towards the personal help, the consultant, the, um, you know, doing it with an a, you know, one-on-one with another person, um, over the tool.
Speaker 3 00:45:03 And so I think it's, it would, for us, it's naive to think just tools is going to solve all of these problems. There has to be as service human layer to everything on, on that continuum. Um, and so I think that will be a huge component of pond as it grows to your second question around just like bad acting, I guess, within platforms in general. I think it's important to set things up in a, an a so that the core model is somewhat virtuous and self-correcting, I don't think it can be perfect, but let's, if I can be like a little crass about Facebook, like mark Zuckerberg started that platform to look at pictures of hot girls and make money, right? Like, so it was always about grabbing attention. So you could sell it for advertising. And that's been like the truth all the way along that all the algorithms that now have like, gotten away from us were built around from the very beginning of that company.
Speaker 3 00:46:08 And so if you think about a model that is not built on advertising, but instead built on reputation that is built on, um, valuing people for their time that is built on like independent people or individuals owning and controlling what they, what they're receiving and what's relevant to them. And, um, benefiting from that, and it being more efficient for connecting your, your advertiser in this model, it's actually more efficient for them to just be able to pick the person they want to connect with instead of blanket advertising and playing into an algorithm. Um, so I, I liked it. Like, I don't know, it's obviously don't know where things will evolve, but I feel like having a more virtuous model like that helps. I mean, I think that's what we've seen play out with other platforms like Uber and Airbnb, where having like a rating vetting validation structure can be really effective in how people behave. Uh, and I think it's funny, I think about the fact that there's very little repercussion in nonprofit software consultant
Speaker 1 00:47:19 Drives that keeps me awake every night.
Speaker 3 00:47:24 And I think about if it's the similar thing of like, nowadays, if you get in a taxi and I don't know if you've had this experience where it's like, wait, I don't know who this person is. And they don't know who I am. And, and like, w what if they don't go where I say, or what if something goes wrong, because you realize all the security you had from using Uber and like, you don't appreciate that until you've seen what it looks like. And I think there's a real opportunity to better regulate and monitor for everyone's benefit this like sale process and exchange in commerce in the sector. That can be a bit wild west at times.
Speaker 2 00:48:00 Yeah. That's such an interesting, I've never thought of that, but yeah, I'm way more comfortable in an Uber. And what it raises is that there's always implicit trust in an institution of some kind and institutions that create more transparency actually like allow you allow a different level of trust. Right? So when Uber first came out, it was crazy. It was like, wait, I'm going to get in the car with a stranger. And that's completely flipped now to where the taxi feels like the stranger. That's just, that's wild to think about and such a great observation.
Speaker 3 00:48:35 I'll be candid, an early experience in pine, which like we thought was a failing, was someone got a product that they weren't happy with. They were like, they told me it was going to do XYZ and it didn't. And I, I don't want to use it anymore after two months. And I want a refund and we were all like devastated. We're like, oh, no, it didn't work. This is when our first customer is like the worst thing ever that could happen. But guess what? To your point, exactly Tim, because we were a platform and an intermediary of them, a full refund, not prorated. And, you know, we're able to call out a sales person that was making mistakes and promising things that they didn't have, and that person's not with the company anymore. And we were able to rectify their relationships with customers. So it's like turned from what we thought was a failing of the platform to actually a demonstration of how valuable this can be for the sector.
Speaker 2 00:49:26 Yeah. And I'm, so I have to say, you know, um, and I think that our first conversation, it was, it was about the expertise side of things. I, you know, I was like, okay, you have to like providers, aren't providers, some are consultants, some are ISB. What, what's the plan on that? And, and I remember, um, I remember feeling satisfied with your answer and looking back, it made it made sense because you're doing an MVP model. You are like solving the next thing. And, you know, and I think that that is to Tracy's point why we've continued to feel so good about engaging is because you are, you have an awareness of the sequencing. And I think, you know, the more I do around being a founder in the more I'm figuring out our own innovation around some, some of this, the more I'm realizing, like it's not about innovating and having good ideas, it's about knowing what the sequence of execution is and knowing like how, how you're going to take the learnings and forward that into the, the next sequence. Um, so yeah, congratulations on that, that, like, we need a blast, that little story that you're talking about there out there, because that is absolutely at the core of what is happening is that there is so little accountability because, because the nonprofit sector is so relational and it is so word of mouth, that is how decisions get made is who, you know, and you know, their experience. So, uh, I just think it's amazing.
Speaker 3 00:50:56 It's a perfect example of like the, um, the, the breakage in innovation, right? So like zooming way in on it, you'd be like, oh, this person got a product that was bad for them. So PON sucks zooming way out. You're like, oh, wow. Think how many more bad sales were stopped by. And, you know, the fact that we cured them, at least from a monetary perspective and got them to the next. So like, but I often think most people are way too zoomed in on, like you said, the one, the one step where they're, if you're at a micro level, it'd be able to point out like a wrong and say something as bad. Um, and not being able to zoom out and think about the bigger impacts, um, which is what I talk about when people want it all to be solved. So, and
Speaker 2 00:51:44 Well, and then an intermediary is just such a, you know, like such a new idea here, that there is actually somebody that can navigate a conversation between those. And I mean, I know for sure, Tracy used to sit in a large platform, but navigated those conversations within the platform around success. And that is, it is very awkward to have no matter what, and, you know, like in, in our work with now, it matters, we haven't done everything perfectly. We've had some projects where it's just like, how did we get here? What is our next step on that? And, you know, having an intermediary that helps with that conversation, it can't be the platform. It can't be the provider. It has to actually be some kind of, you know, some kind of broker. And I just think that that is so new to the market. People can't really get their head around what that could look like, but it's, it is such an intriguing need.
Speaker 1 00:52:40 It's, it's that greater transparency that we sort of led with at the top of this conversation. Right. And I mean, it sounds kind of humorous, but I do take it to places like, you know, Bitcoin, because one of the fundamental premises is transparency in transactions. Right. And that's especially true. If you look at something like, even a theory them, right, where they're like using it to benchmark transparency as one of the sort of uses of that particular blockchain. But I think that is such a powerful story because that type of transparency over time will produce a new accountability that actually addresses one of my great frustrations with how software is sold to nonprofits. It's that it's universally recognized that nonprofits don't have enough time or information to make decision. So whoever shows up with the best story to tell usually wins, uh, and that's not what a nonprofit or an organization needs to succeed.
Speaker 1 00:53:48 It needs something that is more durable and more founded in its own values. Um, I wanted to ask both of you, you know, just take one more pivot in this conversation, which has been amazing. I want to ask both of you one question, um, and it's connected to both of who you are and who I am not. Uh, and I want to say, you know, I have watched both of you in, in, in a very professional world and in very broad context to be super vulnerable about what's going on for you as human beings. I don't think I will ever be that person. I was conditioned not to buy the it industry. And frankly, as someone who's shut down all of their social media, except for LinkedIn, because of issues of trust and transparency, like some of the stuff that y'all put out there is it's terrifying to someone like me, but y'all put it out there. And I just want this to be part of the conversation that we put out to our world, because both of you have a really concrete why behind that. And I would love to hear your why's. Yeah. First on that.
Speaker 3 00:55:14 Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, thank you, uh, Tracy, for kind of bringing that to attention and, and glad to hear that it's, you know, resonates and, and, uh, that you recognize that I it's been interesting for me stepping into, um, such a new role to go from being like a, one of a 40,000 person company to all of a sudden being like, um, you know, kind of independent and out on my own and not worried about people, you know, it was like constantly worried about everything you type someone was watching. And it's just an incredibly it's liberating. And I felt like in that liberated sense as a founder and kind of like, um, you know, in my own space I was creating, um, that I needed to own it as myself. And that, that, that would be the best thing I could do for others too.
Speaker 3 00:56:11 Um, and I think particularly as like, as a gay person, you're, you've gone through, I have gone through parts of my life where I've like hidden a lot and like slowly had to peel that back. And I like, I know what I, as a person in, like when I'm hiding and when I'm not. And I know I am not at my best when I'm hiding and it's not the best thing for others. Um, and so I think that's driven a lot of, and I did shades of that when I was working at Goldman, but it really like blew the lid off, um, move in my own mood, into my own role. I'm just sharing and being honest. And I would say that the other big piece about it has been moving back to, um, Indiana where I've been living. You know, I was in New York for seven years and I didn't come out, um, until after I graduated college.
Speaker 3 00:57:03 So for me, I only ever known and Goldman was like super supportive, like a bunch of my senior mentors were gay and it was like, actually the most supportive place that like made me feel comfortable coming out, which most people probably don't assume. But I had like, not even had to think about it being a weird, like a thing like that. It wasn't like normal. Like it just to become such a like comfortable part of my life to move, um, back to Indiana where I grew up. And I think there was part of the psychological of like being back in a space where I previously was like repressing myself, but also having experienced interactions where like, I wasn't around very much queer community. And I actually had experienced some discrimination and encounters with people and it was like, oh, this is still the reality. And it's, if I'm not gonna speak up and be loud, like who is, and who is going to be left behind by me not doing that.
Speaker 3 00:57:59 And I think that goes for, you know, people that are in the LGBTQ plus community, as much as people struggling with mental health at large, like obviously those things are very intertwined for a lot of folks. Um, but all of that really pushed me to be more vulnerable and you just start getting positive feedback from people that it's helping. And you're like, okay, then I need to keep doing it. And you do hit moments where you're like need to pump the brakes I'm I'm having, uh, someone, a mentor of mine describes a vulnerability hangover. I'm like, it was almost too much. I need to like to go lick my wounds a little bit or kind of like recover and get back at it. But, um, having the space to decide when, and if I'm going to do that is still empowering. So
Speaker 2 00:58:46 Yeah. That's amazing, Mitch. Thanks for, thanks for that. And, um, yeah, Tracy, to answer your question. Um, I, I think I did hide a lot of that part of myself on socials for a long time. Um, and I think it was friendships like yours, frankly, that kept showing me, you know, it's actually okay to talk about this. Um, but then I got really vocal about it in the last year. At some point there was a racially motivated shooting, um, somewhere in the us and, um, and Rachel who is working on our teams, uh, on, on our team and out matter of surgical hands, um, who I learned a lot from, um, said, we need to actually tell our staff that are of this ethnicity, that, um, if they need to take a step away from their desk, that's totally fine. You know, total clueless, white CEO moment.
Speaker 2 00:59:52 For me, it was just like, why, what, and, and, you know, very patiently as always like Rachel explained to the clueless white guy, why that was important, what was involved in that? And I was like, oh, of course, like, absolutely we should do that. Um, and then later that same week, uh, I had in this, this does not happen in frequently. I had a day where I just could not make it happen. And I, I have a sense of days I can push through my depression and days that I can't and I hit in the same week, a day, I couldn't push through. And, um, and I connected for once connected the privilege I have of just saying I'm out for mental health reasons to my team. And the difference that others on, on staff with me had, um, they needed, um, their supervisor to come to the CEO and explain that before it was safe for them to take a step away on something that's so traumatic to, you know, that, that trauma that can be collected, even if it's not happening to you, uh, just creates that space that, that they needed.
Speaker 2 01:01:01 And I think I just realized I'm less, uh, less the guy at the top, and it's almost always a guy at the top, unfortunately, but less the guy at the top creates that space publicly and gives the reason for it. Nobody, nobody below that really has the freedom to just make that move without having other parties like do the self-talk and all of that. And I realized, okay, I have to actually start to create for now. It matters on LinkedIn, the space for our staff to be able to take this step away if they're experiencing trauma. Um, and so I, I, I just put out a little blurb about that. I was like, depression was kicking my ass today and I'm stepping away and gave a little bit of a reason why, and that, that got like 8,000 views on LinkedIn in the next month or something like that.
Speaker 2 01:01:56 Um, and it, and, and the response was overwhelmingly positive. I didn't have anybody that was, you know, calling me out or saying anything negative. And I just, I just realized how much of this is just locked up in fear. And, and if those of us are going to create some of that space, we actually need to be ready for that. But, um, but it it's actually like the tides have turned. It's not the way it used to be when I was growing up where, you know, if you were seeing a counselor, it was embarrassing. If you had mental health issues, that was like, you were mats. Um, the, the world has shifted and what's made it shift. Is people being honest about that and normalizing it. And so that's my contribution. Um, just, you know, uh, similar to Mitch, I can't hide it. Shouldn't hide it and want to create space for others to be able to, to experience some of the freedom. I have to be able to just say, I can't make it work today. So thanks for, thanks for asking that too. He says really thoughtful question.
Speaker 1 01:02:53 Thank you both. I have been, uh, greatly influenced and enhanced in my world by watching you to work and thank you, uh, for our listeners, join pond.com join pond.
Speaker 2 01:03:08 And,
Speaker 1 01:03:11 Uh, Mitch also has his own property, uh, your podcasts, the kids table. Uh, I want to put a plugin for that as well. And thank you so much for your time and thoughtfulness and, and truly sort of unique, innovative, and, and I think groundbreaking perspective on where we can go next as an industry.
Speaker 3 01:03:37 Well, it's been an honor to join you too. It's been, uh, I've obviously been a big fan of all of your programming all year. Uh, so it's really exciting to get to join and, uh, really appreciate having me and just thank you for being awesome supporters and mentors, uh, and teachers, uh, it means a lot.
Speaker 1 01:03:58 Thank you.
Speaker 2 01:04:00 Thank you. Is to join the journey with you. I'm Tim lucky.
Speaker 1 01:04:05 I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters.
Speaker 2 01:04:10 Why it matters is a thought leadership project. Now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations.
Speaker 1 01:04:19 If you like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.
