The Soul of Nonprofits with Liz Moore

Speaker 1 00:00:08 Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of why it matters. I'm Tim Milwaukee, CEO of wa. Now it matters. I'm joined here by Tracy crowns back. Hi everybody. This is Tracy director of innovation here at now on matters. And we are joined by my good friend, Liz Moore from nonprofit, uh, Montana nonprofit association, Liz. Uh, thanks for joining us today. And would you, uh, would you mind taking a minute and introducing yourself? Speaker 2 00:00:38 Sure. Um, I have been with Montana nonprofit association for 10 years. We are the, uh, statewide professional association for nonprofits in Montana. We're part of a national network. Um, there are, I don't know, maybe 45 state associations across the nation that are part of the national council of nonprofits. And, um, I am, I sit on the board of the national council and we are the largest network, um, from a grassroots perspective of nonprofits in the nation, 25,000 plus nonprofits represented Montana has, um, about 8,000 5 0 1 C3 nonprofits. And of those about 2200 have employees. The rest are all volunteer, very small budgets, um, that kind of thing. So, um, we have six hundred and fifty five oh one C3 members and then, uh, probably close to a hundred other business consulting members. Our whole deal is that, um, Montana's vitality and vibrancy and culture and society is best suited when we have a strong business climate, uh, you know, a government that is meeting the needs of its people and a vibrant non-profit sector. Those three together serving the state. Speaker 1 00:02:08 That is, I did not know we had that many non-profits in, that's why it is, um, because we're not, I mean, we're not a huge population. We're a larger state with a small population essentially. Um, so one of my questions is, is that too many nonprofits? Speaker 2 00:02:29 Well, I mean, part of the issue is that we are a huge state with a small population. And so we, if you like a lot of states have two or three main population centers, Montana has seven cows will be at great falls, Helen. And, um, then we have like 16 kind of hub communities that are far enough from the larger population center that they need their own infrastructure. And so every community, um, you know, ends up having non-profits in order to serve the needs of the community in ways that business or government either doesn't or can't. And so the largeness of the state has a lot to do with why there are that many nonprofits. We have almost the most nonprofits per capita anywhere. But the other thing I want to say about that is that nonprofits as a, as a form, um, really represent the will of the people. And so, um, if there is not a will for non a particular nonprofit, it goes away, it's kind of that market force. And, um, if a community and, um, a group of people find enough value in that nonprofit, it is supported, it functions, it may grow. And, um, you know, that's just the way it is. So what we see in the nonprofit sector really is a reflection of how we want Montana to be. Speaker 1 00:03:56 Um, I'm, I mean, just having been born here and living here, when you say that they're these 16 non population centers are a way from the others. I think it's hard. It's hard to imagine what that means. So I want to just take a minute and spell that out a little bit. Like we're talking, we're talking what would be on the east coast three or four states away? Like these small communities are like three or four states away driving distance from a population center. Cause they're all, all the population centers are in the west of this. Almost all of them are in the west part of the state or maybe in the middle, but that leaves the entire Eastern side to kind of fend for itself. And that is bass hundreds of miles before you get to any kind of place where there might be a hospital. Is that, am I saying that right? Um, well that is, Speaker 2 00:04:50 Yeah. I mean to some degree, yes. Um, hospitals, we do have a number of, um, critical access hospitals in rural communities. Just for that reason. They're very small and that's expensive. It's expensive to support. Those are non-profits. And, um, we have, um, job services and those generally aren't nonprofits, but there are, um, organizations that support the mental health needs of people, you know, so somebody can't drive 120 miles to get their critical mental health needs met. And so you end up needing to have these services in communities and in Montana, 120 miles isn't very far. So we think, oh, we'll do a training in X spot and they're 120 miles away. They'll drive for it. Well, no, I mean, what universe do we do that? Speaker 1 00:05:42 Yeah. And Montana, right. And 120 is not that far. Partly because you can drive so fast. Speaker 3 00:05:49 I say, there's this thing that really appeals to people like me, and that is notate no daytime speed limit. And from my own rolling adventures in Montana, I can attest to the fact that it does, it shortens the perception of what that actually is, but that said, I grew up in New Hampshire and I feel like you could fit like 40 new Hampshire's inside Montana. Um, my actual follow-up question for you though, is, is, you know, what I also see in Montana are a wide gamut of economic basis for that population. So what I mean by that is if you look at something like the Gallatin valley, if you look at something like where Bozeman's located, that is in some degree supported by tech supported by tourism supported by seasonal kinds of shifts of people. But if you go farther enough east you're back to what I feel like a lot of folks would consider the traditional American west of like farming and ranching. So does that also mean that you have nonprofits that are dealing with vastly different abilities to meet their own local needs because of the availability of economic resources in their communities? Or is there some sort of statewide leveling that also does wind up happening through something like your organization? Speaker 2 00:07:20 Well, first of all, I'm sad to tell you that we do now have a daytime speed limit. Again, Speaker 3 00:07:26 That is sad cause of tourists like me, Speaker 2 00:07:30 It's 80 miles per hour, which is still quick. Yeah. You can still move on and actually you can set it at 84. Yeah, Speaker 3 00:07:38 Exactly. That means you can go as high as 84. That's right. Speaker 2 00:07:41 Yeah. Okay. So your question is a complicated one. Um, so first of all, yes, there are, um, you know, a number of industries in this state that are, um, like tourism and ag kind of go neck and neck, um, very often. And, um, then, uh, tech in some communities is growing and, um, uh, the Gallatin valley would be, you know, one area where you really see a lot of that. We don't have a sales tax. Um, so we have, uh, income tax and of course property tax and with a small population base. And what traditionally was, you know, for many, many, for many years, um, a very low wage base, then we have, um, limited income and we have a state that believes in small government. So for nonprofits, the ecosystem looks like, um, a really relatively low level of government funding, a belief by many in the population that we should have low government funding, uh, fairly, um, we are ranked very low in foundation giving. Speaker 2 00:08:52 Um, the big foundations are out of state. There are a couple that are in state, but mostly, you know, were last, I saw, we were like 47th in the nation per foundation giving that is not a statistic about generosity. It's a statistic about resources then. Um, also, yeah, w we've already kind of talked about the low tax base, then you're using all that to cover this huge geography. You bet it does have an impact, rural nonprofits. There's a real disparity of resources. You know, you have nonprofits that are more in a circle of opportunity. There are around people who have more and can give more to the degree that philanthropy helps support nonprofits. And then, um, also they're more able to see those that have more and more able to compete for contracts and grants and things like that. So rural Montana, uh, you know, a lot of times those nonprofits are really holding up the fabric and, you know, they're taking care of kids after school and they're running the senior center on, you know, they don't throw their paper away, they cut it up and use it for scrap paper and they don't throw their paper clips away. Speaker 2 00:09:56 You know, that kind of thing. It's just a real, um, it's a real grassroots kind of effort to keep those places going. What we saw during COVID was, uh, while we're still during COVID in the early months of COVID, what we saw is that those nonprofits that were more networked with other nonprofits in their area had more information about resources, more information about how to get resources and therefore they, they were more able to access resources and, um, you know, but we have a lot of nonprofits in really, really rural areas. And it's not just Eastern Montana, there's, um, Libby, Dylan, you know, in the far corners of the state. And then there are some in central Montana Lewistown, um, you know, is there outside of great falls, Malta, you know, they're connected to have her or something like that, which again is still pretty small. And, um, you know, as that goes, they just, they struggle to, uh, secure resources. Speaker 1 00:10:59 I mean, just to put this in perspective popular, when we talk about population centers, we're talking about population centers that are less than a hundred thousand people, right? Like that's what, that's a chap like a village in any other state. Right. You know, any of the, any of the coasts. Speaker 2 00:11:16 Yeah. We laugh when we say more urban areas because it's like urban areas, almost all of Montana is considered rural. And so Helena is the Capitol. And I think Helen a proper has like 35,000 people, you know, and it's a two lane road coming into Helena. Speaker 1 00:11:35 Yeah. Um, I would love to hear what you think about just, just having to talk on, on COVID. What do you feel like the soul of nonprofits, the nonprofit sector it is. Um, and what does, what does that look like in Montana? Speaker 2 00:11:50 Yeah, I think that, um, COVID has been tough. There are some gifts from it. Um, you know, I think we, the, the categorization of work-life home life has dotted lines. Now that can be a gift in that we know people more, there's more flexibility in terms of bringing your whole self to work. And, you know, we see people's little kids and dogs and stuff run across the screen. And, and so there is some of that humanity, which can also be a stress. Um, I will say that nonprofit leaders are very, uh, by and large, the ones we're communicating with are tired. And there is, um, some of them never stopped, you know, the food pantries, the domestic violence, the, the shelters, those kinds of places, they couldn't stop. You know, they, they, human need kept going. And so they had to figure out how to stay safe and still meet the needs of their people. Speaker 2 00:12:45 They didn't have that choice of just closing the doors. Um, disability services is another great example. You know, people live in group homes and you serve them and you got to keep coming to work. So I think, um, there is a fatigue. Um, that's unique to maybe unique to nonprofit leaders of, um, giving and, you know, trying to meet the societal need while being afraid of what's going to happen with resources. Um, are we going to have enough funding? Um, last year when we had cares act funding? Um, I think that was a very, and the PPP loans. That was a very positive thing for many, many nonprofits. This year is harder. ARPA funding is more complicated. I think there's a perception nationally that nonprofits got a lot of money, you know, and, but for the most part, those grants were 10 and $20,000 a piece, you know, and, um, and the PPP loans were directly tied to payroll costs. And so, um, that, it's, it's a concern, um, as we find the ARPA-E funds, which is the American rescue rescue program act. Okay. ARPA, Speaker 3 00:13:57 Let's be confused with DARPA totally different entity Speaker 2 00:14:01 Rescue. Anyway, those funds are more obscure. And I talked to my colleagues around the nation and they're all kind of experiencing that, that nonprofits. Aren't quite sure like nonprofits don't want, I mean, I hate to say this out loud, but non-profits generally don't want $2 million in Montana. Most nonprofits are, you know, have budgets way under a million dollars. And so it's, but it's the $10,000 that'll break us, you know, but there's no mechanism for that if you're not. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:14:29 One of the, one of the follow-up questions I have too, that Liz is, you know, I have spent the better part of 20 years in nonprofit technology and admittedly the context, or that has almost always been urban and not rural. And in the course of my consulting career, you know, I think one of the disconnects that I've observed is, you know, large companies that want to quote unquote, do good, will inevitably say like, oh, we need to just drop a bunch of technology on underserved populations. And, and, and that's sort of however, they define it. That can be people of color that can be women that can be LGBT kids that can be rural. That can be a lot of things. And I think the disconnect that I see happening is, is, is related to something you just said in that is, it doesn't actually matter if what you've done is, you know, airlift in a bunch of Hershey bars, because it looks good to a population in need of sustenance when what they actually need is water and grain. Right. And, you know, I think I would love to know, like, you know, from where you sit and where your experience has been navigating this in Montana, like, what are the needs of those nonprofits in those regions that are critically underserved with something like technology infrastructure? Because I feel like it's a fallacy to say, just drop X technology pod on them and they'll do better. Like, that's actually the last thing they need in some cases when Excel or, you know, their notebook is doing fine. Speaker 2 00:16:29 Yeah. I think that is an interesting question. And I might have a little different perspective on it. Speaker 3 00:16:35 I want to know. Yeah, definitely. Speaker 2 00:16:37 So I remember when I was working in the head start program, um, and I think Tim, I've told you this story that, um, you know, there were people that would give the little kids mittens and, uh, businesses would come in and for Christmas they give amends and crayons and I'd be like, no, you know, we, we need to solve poverty. Well, by the time I was there for 12 years, I was like, you know, just give them the damn mittens, you know, cause they need the mittens and we need to solve poverty. And I think that it's, there is a yes end there. I mean, if, if we had like a message to philanthropy, this is fun technology. Yes. It changes. And that's hard. It's hard that, you know, you founded something two years ago or three years ago, and now we got to do it again. Speaker 2 00:17:22 And that's the that's relevance, you know, we can't stay relevant without that. Is there a larger systemic, uh, need, you know, certainly in Montana that need for broadband, it's huge. And I'm, we are looking at, you know, pouring some of our funding that we're, that we're looking at. I'm, I'm grateful that we're pouring some of that into broadband. Um, that's certainly a need and then have small nonprofits that just don't know how to do it. And, um, you know, so, uh, and they are getting along fine, you know, it's not fine in the sense of efficiency, but are they able to get the backpacks full of food and give it to the kids in the little town? You know, so they're not hungry on the weekends. Yeah. They are. And they're marking it on their Excel sheet, you know, Speaker 1 00:18:15 Can get that. I want to say also that, um, there's, there's two sides to that. I mean, um, and I, and I, I'm so glad that you're raising that because I live in this intersection of dreaming for more wanting to see the nonprofit sector increasingly be competitive, you know, in wages, its ability to identify professionalism and, you know, create talent centers that, that people want to come to in, in Montana. Especially when I grew up, the view I had of nonprofits was, you know, this is why, why, why is anybody even getting a salary? This should just be volunteer, work that you're, you know, that you're doing out of the goodness of your heart over the, over the weekend. Cause this is charity. And I, you know, I mean just very strong work, work ethic with a low appreciation of privilege and the role that plays. Speaker 1 00:19:10 Right. So I, and I think that that, that there are echoes of that, that still exist in Montana that make it hard because there is kind of a, be grateful for what you have. Why are you asking for more, um, because this isn't even a real job. And, and I, I feel like that is for right or for wrong. I have the perception that that is more widespread in rural populations than it is in urban. Um, is that true? Do you see that shifting? Um, maybe that was just my perspective when I was growing up and verse, but Speaker 2 00:19:44 No, I think that, um, I actually think that that perspective in some ways is a growing perspective on some sides, if you will. And, um, we certainly deal with that with the legislature. You know, I've talked with legislators who have said, if you're getting paid more than this amount, it's not about the mission anymore. It's about the pay. And it's like, well, you know, it depends on the job. If you're supervising a thousand employees, you know, you want somebody good doing that, especially if it's in a field that requires licensure and professional standards. So, um, and I think that in a society where we've come to expect nonprofits to stand in the gap, it's not okay to expect them to do that at the expense of their own skin. I mean, and I think, especially we see that with leaders coming in, they're leaving. They're like this, isn't the deal I signed up for. Speaker 2 00:20:40 I, I need to make a living wage. And in Montana where cost of living is, you know, not inexpensive and people have a student loan debt, you know, it's like there has to be a reasonable wage. Now we can say, uh, so what if they don't come in or so what if they leave? But, so what if you're in one of these 16 hub communities, you have a nonprofit leader leave of a domestic violence shelter or the food bank, whatever you, you may be two years before you can get another person, folks to come to your neighborhood. It's a big deal that loss of talent. The other thing I want to say is, um, so I think as a, just to put a underline on that, um, nonprofit professionals, I mean, volunteerism is its own thing and yay. We need volunteers, but those nonprofits that are professionals need a wage that recognizes what they're contributing to society. Speaker 2 00:21:38 So that's on all of us. The second thing I want to say is about technology and the wish for more efficiency and, um, you know, more resources, I don't know of any non-profits, who don't want more resources, you know, we all do, and we're pretty reluctant to turn anything away. Um, and yet, uh, capacity building is different than the ability to use those resources. Well, so, um, that's where it really is on us to be with nonprofit leaders and decide to gather what efficiencies are worth their time, if you will, and help them, um, come to a recognition of the value of capacity building that is not easy to do, because like, I think all day long about capacity building, but nonprofit leaders that are out there doing it, they are not thinking about capacity building. So when I come in and say, Hey, we have a capacity building initiative, which we do all the time. It's like, okay, but do you happen to know anyone who's funding technology, right. Speaker 1 00:22:57 I mean, you're, it's so I love that you're saying that it's, um, you know, it's why we developed the human stack as a form of getting to the idea of digital competency, including both the technology piece and the human piece and the, the, the thing I would say, you know, and I know that this is my soap box, but I see it over and over is that technology companies don't own the success of the, uh, of the customers that use it. And the assumption there is that it's their job to be successful with it because they're paying for it. So of course it'll want to be, and that's true in a situation where, you know, the economics are, you do as little as you can for as much as possible. And you use the leftovers called profit to fund your, you know, your efficiency so that you can do that even better in the nonprofit world. Speaker 1 00:23:59 It's opposite. You do as much as you can for as little as possible. So there's never anything leftover, which means that functionally capacity building is not built into the model. And I don't know of any tech for good, any tech for good companies that look at that and understand it. I don't think philanthropy even understands the economic differences between those two. And so I, yeah, I think that there's assumptions built in that. They'll just do this on their own and they can't like, it's actually not economically possible for them to do unless they start to carve out some extra space that is basically profitability that they can use for that capacity building. But in order to do that, and you have to decide, you have to decide who's not getting served. Right. Cause there's unlimited supply on most. Um, Speaker 2 00:24:49 Yeah. And the amount of time that takes to learn, I mean, um, I remember, uh, uh, grantmaker who said to me, you know, early on in my career, um, at Montana nonprofit association, you know, all nonprofit leaders believe in their mission and are passionate about the mission, but we know when people engage with Montana nonprofit association, they're also, um, investing in their organization, not just their mission. And that to me has really helped define what capacity building is. It takes time and it takes energy. And right now those are short. Um, and so, you know, we traveled to Eastern Montana a few weeks back and, you know, wanting to talk with folks about capacity building and they want support and, and value it and appreciate it. And yet just kind of getting away from the survival mode enough to think about efficiency and effectiveness and gut board governance and all of that. It's not easy to do because the needs are compelling. Speaker 3 00:25:54 Yeah. Well also, you're, you're sort of touching on, I mean, when you say capacity, your, your two things happen for me. One is my mind goes to a system of dependencies that are much greater than any one organization's own operational context. Right. Um, and it touches on thing number two, and that is a passion of mine. And that is the wage disparity between commercial and non-profit people who are essentially doing the same job in aggregate is huge across the United States and it's, and it's to the tune of billions of dollars. And it's kind of rooted in some of the stuff. I think Tim, you were saying earlier around like, well, you know, we should just do this good work on the weekend. Um, but you know, so, so Liz, what, I'm also really wanting a call out and something that you said, and, and hear your take on is yes, there is obviously the allocation of time to mission versus organization building, but you know, some of these bigger gaps, you talked about broadband, um, you know, for, for our listeners sake, we're recording this around Halloween and it's going to come out after Thanksgiving. Speaker 3 00:27:19 So yay. The Biden infrastructure bill passed, and there's a whole bunch of investments in rural broadband, and it's going to be amazing. So, yay. Um, but you know, you talked about broadband, you talked about salaries, you talked about local economic resourcing. What helps level that playing field? Is it literally just more directed attention to the things that are those interdependencies? Is it more funding? What, what is it that helps bridge that divide? Because I feel like I know enough to know if you just drop one thing in, it's not going to change that subsystem of dependencies. Speaker 2 00:28:02 Yeah. I think that, you know, when we look at states that where there's a real understanding of the role of social service next to economic growth, um, there is a healthier non-profit structure supporting the economic growth and, um, in, in a state where economic growth is. And, and then, you know, economic growth is, uh, is, uh, definitely a fundamental value that, um, you can't really argue with. And I, I don't argue with it, but it is supported in Montana. If tourism is the second largest industry, um, economic growth is very much supported by nonprofit health and, you know, um, people aren't coming to Montana because of our shopping they're coming because of streets, Speaker 3 00:28:53 Sales tax is 10 and a half percent, or I left. Speaker 2 00:28:57 Okay. All right, I'll give you that. But, uh, that sales tax is probably paying for some good stuff. Not that I'm an advocate. No, not really. Not really. Okay. Well, um, but the point is, um, people are coming to Montana, um, because of, uh, streams that are clean. We have arts culture, we have a S you know, this small, smaller town vibe that's, um, supported by farmer's markets and four H clubs and things like that that are nonprofit. And, um, so there's an interrelationship between the two. And when we are in a state where there are, um, folks who don't understand maybe, or have a keen recognition of the value non-profits bring, and that's one of the fundamental goals of M and a one is to bring resources to is to help create connections, um, uh, both within and outside the non-profit sector, um, that support the mission of nonprofits. Speaker 2 00:30:02 And the third one is that there's an accurate public recognition of what nonprofits bring so that when someone stands up in a legislature and says, why do we want to fund this? People would be like, why would we hurt the nonprofit sector they're helping us, you know, like base level, that's what we want is that attitude of why would we make a decision that hurts nonprofits rather than, oh, those nonprofits are asking for too much, you know, they just want more and more and more, and that's, that's hard. That's, that's a perception that's out there and it's on all of us in the nonprofit community. But I also think on our elected officials to really understand and think about that interrelationship between business nonprofits and government, and that we need all three to have the state we want. Um, we talk about nonprofits has been about two things. One is safety net, you know, kind of those basic services and how we want life to be for people around us and ourselves. And then the other is the Montana. We love, you know, the culture and the arts and all of that. And, um, we need both of those in order to keep this Montana, even as we grow Speaker 1 00:31:14 Liz and blood, that you're bringing up, um, government. And by the way, I thank you for that vision on safety net and, and the, you know, the state of Montana. Um, and you're, you are the first person that has helped me connect how important government and nonprofits are. I think that you're unique in that. Um, you, you understand that so clearly, and you summarized it for me one time, um, by saying, you know, um, nonprofits pick up where government leaves off. And so when you see government reduce its spending on services, the thing that happens is supply goes up or demand goes up for non-profits when, when, when, uh, supply is decreasing for the resources to serve that. And I think that, that I would love for you to spell that out for people a little bit more, just because it's such an important way of understanding that relationship. Speaker 2 00:32:19 Yeah. So I would say, um, there may be kind of a general misunderstanding that, um, around the fact that nonprofits aren't getting money from government nonprofits, our partners to government doing the work of government on the ground. So when you have a nonprofit, um, mental health, uh, facility or disability facility or health, those, those are the safety net kinds of things. And one of the jobs of government is the welfare of the people. So we, you know, in a state that believes in small government, we partner government partners with nonprofits to provide those services we're partners. So when government reduces funding, there's a cutting off of the knees, you know, at the knees of their partner. And so nonprofits hold more events, they hold galas and they try to get, you know, and at the same time licensure requirements go up regs, go up, you know, all of that had cost of living increases all of that, or we're competing with the poor profit wage market, which right now, you know, Montana is growing and that's wonderful, but then that we have people leaving the nonprofit sector to work, you know, so, so in some ways the government is hurting itself, um, because its own ability to provide for the welfare of the people is compromised as, um, government funding decreases and non-profits stand in that gap. Speaker 2 00:33:46 And, you know, we're all like, you know, bridge builders and road builders. They're not holding bake sales and galas to raise enough money to build the road. Non-profits are literally holding it in raise enough money to provide basic services. So, um, yeah, I, I think that kind of answers or gives you my Speaker 1 00:34:10 Talking about that, um, sorry, just really quickly, that feels like a very one-way partnership, right? Like government government can act independently of nonprofits and affect nonprofits really substantially do nonprofits, have you, you know, is the inverse, um, at, in plan anyway, do nonprofits have ways of effecting government? So there's a two-way partnership. What does that look like? Speaker 2 00:34:38 Yeah, I mean really, um, that's the role of policy and advocacy, you know, is that we are, and that's part of the reason associations exist. I mean, that, that ability to come together and, um, you know, uh, create a message and deliver that message around the impact of government spending is a significant part of the role of nonprofits. Some, some nonprofits don't understand that's part of the role or don't know that's okay. You know, and, um, there are some rules around it, but it is okay. You just have to follow the rules and you can find out any of those rules at Mt. nonprofit.org. But, um, so that's one part of the answer and I've lost the other part. So maybe reframe the question or Speaker 1 00:35:26 No, I think that actually answers it. I I'm looking for is this a two-way partnership? And I think what you're saying is, you know, yeah, it is absolutely. And, and that, that makes sense. Cause I have seen, you know, in the emails that you write where you're saying this bill is on and we need to actually say like, this is not okay for our sector or whatever. Um, Speaker 2 00:35:48 Yeah, the good news about being in a state with a small population, as you can almost always find somebody who has a connection to a legislator. And so that's a lot of what we do is relational. Um, you know, we may not get attention going up to the Capitol, but when we have a board member from a nonprofit in a community call a legislator and or when we ask that board member to do that, and they say yes, and they call that legislator and say, this is how this is going to impact us. And that's really how we get it done. Speaker 3 00:36:20 Do you, that was actually directed, you know, this is starting to go to my follow up question to your statement. And that is, I mean, I'm, I'm going to frame it this way and say that, you know, everything that you talked about Montana wise resonates with me personally. And I once had a, a lawyer friend of mine say to me, you know, the only thing that, you know, unmitigated growth is, is cancer, right? That's the definition of unmitigated growth is cancer. And if you really think about that from that partnership perspective that you're talking about, you know, it, it frames a lot of the discussions around service service being met in a state like Montana. So I have a two-part question for you knowing full well that being from California, nobody from Montana will ever let me forget that I'm from c'mon from California. Um, question one is, you know, I personally view a lot of the policy designations and yeses and nos that nonprofits can operate in as arcane and rooted in sort of, you know, 19th century values. So what are new policies that would substantially benefit that partnership between nonprofits and governments that, that needs to be in place that maybe aren't, uh, and then part two is how do you balance, you know, and this gets to a little bit of our discussion, you know, before we hit record, how do you balance the need for nonprofits versus the need for an inclusive democratic society? Speaker 2 00:38:23 Okay. Hold on. Those are two big questions. Speaker 3 00:38:27 Yeah. Everybody always tells me that when I ask them stuff. Speaker 2 00:38:31 All right. So first of all, regarding policies, um, you know, and, and making policies current, um, you know, the, our tax code represents our values, um, plain and simple. And so as we, you know, prays taxes one way lower taxes, one way, make taxes easier for one, you know, that is all values-based. And, um, right now in Montana, um, it appears that the tax code is intended to drive growth, which is going to get at your part of your question. It appears to drive growth, and I'm not going to speak to whether it favors the wealthy or not. I feel like that's a political statement and people can decide for themselves. Um, but, um, one of the questions I asked in a meeting was who decided that growth all by itself is what we want and, you know, where does culture and identity and the way we live fit with growth. Speaker 2 00:39:41 And I think that as we make tax decisions, that question needs to be paramount so that we're deciding not only on economy, which we need, but way of life, which we also need those two need to be considered together. And nobody in Montana really wants government. We are so huge that it's all about, you know, that it's invasive in way of life. But that is part of the partnership that Tim and I were talking about. Um, so, so there's that then, you know, balancing the need for non-profits versus an inclusive democratic society. I mean, in some ways, in an ideal inclusive democratic society, you wouldn't need nonprofits. You know, that gap would be taken care of. And, but because the gap exists, you know, um, we have nonprofits who, who look out for the common good and rather than the individual good. And that's part of the way we've done democracy. Speaker 2 00:40:40 It's part of the, it's part of the root of the way we do our country, um, is we have individual good that is prioritized. And then we have this belief in the common good and, um, nonprofits are really formed around that. So I don't know if balance is the word, um, how do we balance the need as much as, um, what does the growing disparity, you know, between who ha who has, and who has not, what does that tell us about the way we're handling democracy and as nonprofits need more, is it that they need more, or that communities need more because that's really what we're, you know, that's what we're about. So, um, yeah, I wouldn't want to confuse community need with non-profit need and communities, you know, we need individual well-being and communal wellbeing. Speaker 1 00:41:41 That's a, that is a really great answer. And while you're talking it, um, it reminds me of how extreme our status, um, you know, like I, I was raised with a very clear fear of government government taking their lands and our, our land and our guns, which, you know, I don't know where that came from in Bose. Nobody wanted our land and our guns in Bozeman, but there's just this sense here about we need a smaller government as possible. And, um, and that, and then as, as I've gotten around the world and lived other places like, oh, there's a big wide world out there. And not everybody thinks this way and, and have realized even for a small population of Montana, there are very polarizing views here that exists a mistake. Um, so how I'm thinking, especially about hate groups that exist in Montana, what, what does it look like when we're talking about civil society in the will of the people when some of the will of the people are straight up racist? Speaker 2 00:42:51 Yeah, that's hard. And, um, you know, I have watched some congressional hearings on the fact that, you know, hate groups can get tax exempt status and IRS has responsibility there. And I think that they, they, um, are trying to fulfill some of that responsibility. Um, you know, we have the ability at M and a to deny membership. We haven't had to do that. Um, you know, we haven't been faced with that choice. Um, so I don't really know how to answer your question other than, you know, than the human response of it's deplorable. And also there's a, there's a, racism is a huge topic and, you know, it's hard to find structure. I don't know that you can find structure that is absolutely pure of racism. And so, um, you know, we have to think about that as we think about, you know, should, where does racism fit in the nonprofit sector and where does equity fit? So that's a whole topic we could move into. And I don't think I said that very well. I guess what I'm saying is it's hard to find a place where racism doesn't exist and not necessarily through intention, but through implicit bias through upbringing, all of that kind of stuff. It's not about a bunch of bad people. It's just the seat we swim in. Speaker 1 00:44:18 Well, and that's not the only extremist view. That's one of them and that's actually probably the least overtly expressed. Right. So there are a lot of other extreme views. I mean, COVID is a great example. Like, you know, uh, like we don't need masks here. We do need maths here. We don't need the vaccine. You know, we do, it's not even an, you know, a pandemic at all anyway. And so like, I mean, you and I have both heard both sides of that whole thing. Um, and so that, you know, that's a very, that's a much more concrete example. Speaker 2 00:44:55 Yeah. Um, as we do policy work at M and a, you know, we deal with the fact that, you know, presumably we think about a common ground and, uh, you know, kind of shared values, right? And so as the state shifts markedly to the right, which it has, if we're right in the middle and the state shifts, we now have a left identity and we haven't moved, so where do we go? How do we navigate that? And where do we go with that? You know, our need and desire to stay nonpartisan? Do we have to move more to the right? I mean, what we find ourselves doing is decreasing taking stands on political issues or issues that we may have taken a stand on before, because they have a more political identity now. And so, um, an example would be like, um, re redistricting, like I'm, I'm reluctant to get into the conversation on redistricting because it's so political. But in fact, it's about representation of the people, which is what the nonprofit sector is about. And so where's our role, our role in that, in a state that politicizes those perspectives, you know, where's our role in a state that is PO you know, where masking or not masking is politicized. You know, how do we, how do we advocate for healthy workplace practices when it's politicized? You know, it's just, it's a very complicated and kind of sad, sad place to be that things can't just be straight forward about what they're about they have. Speaker 1 00:46:28 And the, and there is, I think to your point, there, there is such a lack of balance that, you know, it's it's, yeah. I just, I feel like the middle is getting stretched in here just like it does everywhere else, but I feel like, you know, Montana can short out pretty quickly cause the wires get bare. Um, and I think that that's, I think that's just a factor of living here. And I think that the more, the, the, the more extreme things get the harder these conversations become because they aren't, to your point, they aren't about the real thing. It's not just is our masks healthier or not, which is what I wish it could just be a commentary about. Speaker 2 00:47:13 Well, and I think too, that, um, you know, as we talk about the middle of getting smaller, I think a can of worms that we could open would be campaign finance reform and, um, that the role of money in politics, huge. And so as the money goes, so the extreme edges go. And so until we have a public will, for that to change, I think this is we're, we're living with the cards we've been dealing to ourselves. Speaker 3 00:47:44 I mean, God's firm from the outside looking in Liz, like my little heart says, please, please, please hold the center. Um, but I understand that's hard and it's even harder when you can't just say things that make rational sense in your own mind. You know, like I feel like some of the things I find myself saying, even getting a little bit involved in politics here in Livermore, like sciences, real, you know, economics, Israel, uh, you know, medicine is real. And so let's talk about those things. Like we were taught in grade school as real things, but that's also politicized now and it's hard. Um, yeah, from the outside looking in, I just want to say like, please, please, please hold the middle. But I know how hard that is. Like, this is like my little sort of, I, I started life as, you know, a card carrying member of the American communist party, uh, 30 years ago. And I'm ending my sort of like journey as sort of a left of, you know, sort of like five or 10 degrees left of center Democrat that is continuously disappointed with what the Democrats are doing. So like, that's been my journey. Um, but it's hard now. It really is hard. And when truth itself is in question like the fundamental underpinnings of what we've considered to be, the scientific method is now up for public debate. It's hard. Right. Speaker 2 00:49:22 I think we all share some responsibility for holding the middle. And I think is a part of that. I mean, the fact that an issue comes up on social doesn't mean it needs to be commented upon. And exactly. And yet we all feel like if I don't comment, am I in favor of the other side? You know? And so we, we have a shared responsibility for the middle and I, and I believe that, and it also requires really understanding and listening to understand the person who is on the middle, but maybe on the other side of center and really agreed, you know, having openness to that. And, um, the extremes, you know, I don't know how much I can impact an extreme one way or the other. Um, but I believe in the role of nonprofits in the middle. And I mean, that's, that's what we're about is the common good. And if you think about those old towns where the comments were the center of the town, you know, that's, that's what we're about. Speaker 3 00:50:27 Can I ask you one last question? Cause I just, Tim and I both realized you, well, goodness, where a time. Um, but I wanted to just touch on something very briefly that came up with one of our other guests, a few episodes back. And that was Marnie Webb who was talking about the function and role of civil society and what it excludes and includes. And one of her points that she made was, you know, that tax status is actually limiting to our own vision of what civil society should include. And while she wasn't saying, we need to get rid of it, what she was saying is we need to expand our understanding of what creates impact in the world. And her cited examples were things like fiscally sponsored institutions, which are sort of one shade of gray over from a 5 0 1 C3 all the way out to sort of ad hoc networks that form in times of global crisis. I'm wondering your take on that, particularly in a state where the resourcing is so disparate between locations and the availability of resources it's so disparate, would that be something that would benefit the civil society that should function in Montana as well? Yeah, Speaker 2 00:51:47 Absolutely. I think as we look more at equity and equity of resources, um, understanding that there are all kinds of forms that are, that are can, and are having an impact government is set up in such a way that it's limiting in philanthropy, frankly, even in the best of intention is set up in ways that limit, you know, it's very, um, you know, dominant culture centered the processes that reporting the measurements, all of that. And so, um, finding ways that, um, recognize, you know, grassroots efforts, less formal efforts and to, to get resources to those efforts because they are making a difference, I think is probably the key to, um, really having a diverse, um, civil society in a state that recognizes the contributions of all of its people, you know, in, in Montana very much, uh, the, um, the native organizations, uh, you know, there are many that aren't organizations, they are efforts in communities making the difference. And yet the funding is hard because they're not a formal structure. Yeah. I think that figuring out how to change that, um, would be, um, a game changer, Speaker 1 00:53:08 Liz. Um, thank you for all that you do. Uh, not just for Montana. Non-profits I have met with you in different parts of the country as you and I are both traveling and you are out and about making a difference in the world. Um, thank you for all of those efforts and thanks for the work that you do. And, um, I'm really glad for, uh, for our audience to get to know you. Yeah, Speaker 3 00:53:35 Yeah. Same here. I am so pleased to meet you and I love how you think of policy and impact and outcome, particularly with things that we don't see on the left coast or the east coast, or even in urban areas that are just as real and impactful and folks' lives that our conversations were kind of uncomfortable having honestly, uh, in our little tech bubble. So, so grad grateful. And thank you. Thank you. Thanks for the opportunity. Speaker 1 00:54:11 I'm Tim Speaker 3 00:54:11 Lockie, I'm Tracy, Crohn's Zack, and you've been listening to why it matters. Speaker 1 00:54:17 Why it matters is a thought leadership project of now it matters a strategic services firm offering advising and guiding to nonprofit and social impact organizations. Speaker 3 00:54:26 You like what you've heard, please subscribe, check out our playlist and visit us at now. It matters.com to learn more about us.